tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-66309032024-03-05T13:05:20.077+00:00Jews against ZionismA store for articles linked by <a href="http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/">Jews sans frontieres</a>levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comBlogger102125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-66463116277510813532017-11-15T22:43:00.002+00:002017-11-15T22:43:56.420+00:00When Dodgy Dave met Uncle Joe<h3 class="post-title entry-title">
<a href="http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/when-dodgy-dave-met-uncle-joe.html">
When Dodgy Dave met Uncle Joe
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I had a bit of a twitter exchange with David Aaronovitch the other day.
I went into it with some trepidation because I thought some troll might
pop up to derail the thread, simply insult Dave's interlocutor or even
come out as a zionist sympathiser having been anti-zionist in the past.
I even thought that Dave himself might be on good form but it was not
to be.<br />
<br />
It all started when I noticed an unremarkable tweet from <a href="https://twitter.com/ejhchess/status/502516012714319872" target="_blank">@ejhchess to @Flying_Rodent</a>:</div>
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<a class="u-url profile" data-scribe="element:user_link" href="https://twitter.com/ejhchess"><span class="full-name">
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<a class="profile customisable h-card" data-scribe="element:mention" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/flying_rodent">@<b class="p-nickname">flying_rodent</b></a> A friend of yours is engaging in logic <a class="link customisable" data-expanded-url="https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/502514527184117760" data-scribe="element:url" dir="ltr" href="https://t.co/h4LGAS0Zo2" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" title="https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/502514527184117760"><span class="tco-hidden">https://</span><span class="tco-display">twitter.com/DAaronovitch/s</span><span class="tco-hidden">tatus/502514527184117760</span><span class="tco-ellipsis"><span class="tco-hidden"> </span>…</span></a></div>
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<a class="u-url customisable-highlight long-permalink" data-datetime="2014-08-21T18:02:08+0000" data-scribe="element:full_timestamp" href="https://twitter.com/ejhchess/statuses/502516012714319872"><time class="dt-updated" datetime="2014-08-21T18:02:08+0000" pubdate="" title="Time posted: 21 Aug 2014, 18:02:08 (UTC)">7:02 PM - 21 Aug 2014</time></a>
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From David Aaronovitch's "logical" tweet I saw <a href="https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/502873270061129728" target="_blank">Dave angrily challenging</a> someone called <i>i was id (@iwasid</i> to "Find me a single thing either of us has said or written that supports right-wing racism anywhere. One."<br />
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Well as coincidence would have it I noticed something Dave had written only the day before for the <i>Jewish Chronicle</i> that I thought was racist so, with some trepidation (see above) I mentioned it in a tweet:<br />
<a class="u-url profile" data-scribe="element:user_link" href="https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch"><span class="full-name">
<span class="p-name customisable-highlight" data-scribe="element:name">David Aaronovitch</span>
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<a class="profile customisable h-card" data-scribe="element:mention" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/iwasid">@<b class="p-nickname">iwasid</b></a> Find me a single thing either of us has said or written that supports right-wing racism anywhere. One. <a class="profile customisable h-card" data-scribe="element:mention" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/Dannythefink">@<b class="p-nickname">Dannythefink</b></a> <a class="profile customisable h-card" data-scribe="element:mention" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/Brian_Whit">@<b class="p-nickname">Brian_Whit</b></a></div>
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<blockquote cite="https://twitter.com/jewssf/status/502907662095618048" class="tweet subject expanded h-entry" data-scribe="section:subject" data-tweet-id="502907662095618048">
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.<a class="profile customisable h-card" data-scribe="element:mention" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch">@<b class="p-nickname">DAaronovitch</b></a> this looks like a crude right wing racist generalisation "new minorities now hate old ones" <a class="link customisable" data-expanded-url="http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/columnists/121642/nows-not-time-pack-suitcase-and-leave-uk" data-scribe="element:url" dir="ltr" href="http://t.co/1dPK0JCl0M" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" title="http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/columnists/121642/nows-not-time-pack-suitcase-and-leave-uk"><span class="tco-hidden">http://www.</span><span class="tco-display">thejc.com/comment-and-de</span><span class="tco-hidden">bate/columnists/121642/nows-not-time-pack-suitcase-and-leave-uk</span><span class="tco-ellipsis"><span class="tco-hidden"> </span>…</span></a> <a class="profile customisable h-card" data-scribe="element:mention" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/iwasid">@<b class="p-nickname">iwasid</b></a></div>
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To which Dave replied:</div>
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<a class="u-url profile" data-scribe="element:user_link" href="https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch"><span class="full-name">
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<a class="profile customisable h-card" data-scribe="element:mention" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/jewssf">@<b class="p-nickname">jewssf</b></a> It only looks like that to you, Mark, because that's what you want to see.</div>
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<a class="u-url customisable-highlight long-permalink" data-datetime="2014-08-22T21:06:38+0000" data-scribe="element:full_timestamp" href="https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch/statuses/502924831084802048"><time class="dt-updated" datetime="2014-08-22T21:06:38+0000" pubdate="" title="Time posted: 22 Aug 2014, 21:06:38 (UTC)">10:06 PM - 22 Aug 2014</time></a>
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To which I responded:</div>
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.<a class="profile customisable h-card" data-scribe="element:mention" dir="ltr" href="https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch">@<b class="p-nickname">DAaronovitch</b></a> your statement "new minorities now hate the old ones" is racist for all to see <a class="link customisable" data-expanded-url="http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/columnists/121642/nows-not-time-pack-suitcase-and-leave-uk" data-scribe="element:url" dir="ltr" href="http://t.co/1dPK0JCl0M" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" title="http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/columnists/121642/nows-not-time-pack-suitcase-and-leave-uk"><span class="tco-hidden">http://www.</span><span class="tco-display">thejc.com/comment-and-de</span><span class="tco-hidden">bate/columnists/121642/nows-not-time-pack-suitcase-and-leave-uk</span><span class="tco-ellipsis"><span class="tco-hidden"> </span>…</span></a> not just me</div>
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And another guy joined in:</div>
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<br />
And Dave responded, warming to his subjectivity theme:<br />
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At this point it started to look like he wasn't simply being slippery,
he really didn't know what was racist about generalising about whole
minority groups so I explained:<br />
Now he did start to get slippery:<br />
Yes I did know it was about France but how does that change anything?<br />
<br />
I also mentioned that his last tweet was a non sequitur but now tetchiness was setting in as a nerve seems to have been struck:<br />
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Wow! What was that all about? How does using "surely" amount to
Stalinism? Reading back I wish I hadn't used the word surely because it
should have been clear by then that he really didn't know that his
generalisation was racist. Also I if I didn't say "surely" I could have
put the apostrophe in "countrys" making it "country's". Still never
mind, it was worth the bad grammer to see Aaro lose it like a complete
idiot.<br />
<br />
It must have been while I was tweeting something else that Aaro tweeted
to a @rico_hands and me that "You retweeted this earlier: "The Zionist
Jews own all the Media the Film Industry and are all Corrupt." It
didn't look like a comment I'd approve of and I said so and Aaro said it
wasn't me, it was that Rico chap. I know some people put all their
addressees at the beginning of a tweet but if you're making an
accusation you should only put the target of the accusation at the
beginning and other addressees at the end. Just a word on protocol
because people can get the wrong idea. Anyway, I asked Aaro for a link
and he told me it wasn't me that retweeted it. So that was nice.<br />
<br />
But I still responded to the stalinist thing:<br />
<br />
So now he tried to modify what he actually said:<br />
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Now actually I don't think that's much better but is better in that
it's not a generalisation. But it is a rather bland assertion and it's
devoid of any analysis as to what he means by antisemitism or any
explanation as to why he thinks it's the case but anyway back I came
still focused on the undeniably (though he did deny it) racist
generalisation:<br />
<br />
Noticing that Aaro's reference to antisemitism meant that he was
alluding to Jews when he said "old ones", I asked then what he meant by
"new minorities" but heard no more from him.<br />
<br />
Now all the while this was going on I was surprised that no one came
along to help Aaro dig himself out of the hole he had dug. None came
until that Gerasite/Unrepentant Jacobin chap, Jamie Palmer appeared with
this little gem:<br />
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<br />
I just couldn't be bothered with him and I was truly feeling too sorry
for Aaro to point that Jacobin's use of the word "also" meant that he
was agreeing with me, that what Aaro had written was indeed a racist
generalisation (also). Aaro smartly ignored the "supportive" tweet too
and he was promoting the young Gerasite only recently<br />
<br />
But what of the statement itself? "Ethnic hatred has become a basic
element in the everyday life of Israeli youth". Of itself, it isn't
making a generalisation. As it stands it could simply be a reference to
the racist environment that Israeli youth inhabits. I found its origin
just now. It's a <a href="http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/.premium-1.611822" target="_blank"><i>Ha'aretz</i> headline</a>.<br />
<br />
Of course, <i>Ha'aretz</i> is an Israeli newspaper. Israelis are not a
minority in Israel so the headline wasn't even about a minority. So a
great help Aaro's protégé turned out to be. He confirmed my own point
about Aaro's racist generalisation and lifted a <i>Ha'aretz</i> headline out of context. I'm sure he'll go far but he and Aaro have to bear in mind that context is all.</div>
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<span class="post-labels">Labels:<a href="http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/David%20Aaronovitch" rel="tag">David Aaronovitch</a>,<a href="http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/hasbara" rel="tag">hasbara</a>,<a href="http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/racism" rel="tag">racism</a></span>
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levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-31662770057686864432013-05-01T13:54:00.004+01:002013-05-01T13:54:50.841+01:00MacShane in Ha'aretz<br />
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<h1 class="article_page_h1_margin" style="color: black; font-family: Georgia; font-size: 26px; font-weight: 300; line-height: 31px; margin: 0px 0px 5px;">
<a href="http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/wake-up-to-the-anti-semitism-you-complacent-british-middle-classes.premium-1.518375">http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/wake-up-to-the-anti-semitism-you-complacent-british-middle-classes.premium-1.518375</a></h1>
<h1 class="article_page_h1_margin" style="color: black; font-family: Georgia; font-size: 26px; font-weight: 300; line-height: 31px; margin: 0px 0px 5px;">
Wake up to the anti-Semitism, you complacent British middle classes</h1>
<h2 style="color: black; font-family: Georgia; font-size: 16px; font-weight: 300; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px 0px 7px;">
The U.K.'s comfortable, critical-of-Israel middle classes are unwilling to accept that anti-Semitism is a contemporary problem that constantly manifests itself in new forms, as the recent contemptuous tribunal findings on anti-Semitism in academia showed.</h2>
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<span class="writer" style="color: #7c7c76; display: inline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; margin-bottom: 0px;">By <a href="http://www.haaretz.com/misc/writers/denis-macshane-1.426343" rel="author" style="color: #434141; text-decoration: none;"><span style="color: #7c7c76;">Denis MacShane </span></a></span>| <span class="date" style="color: #7c7c76; display: inline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;">Apr.30, 2013 | 12:46 PM </span>| <img src="http://www.haaretz.com/images/icons/comment.png" style="border-style: none;" /> <span class="commentsCount" style="color: #7c7c76; display: inline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;">29</span></div>
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<span class="imageText" style="color: white; font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; min-height: 18px; overflow: visible; padding-right: 11px;">Anti-Semitism is growing in strength in Europe, and hate of Israel increases in England. </span></div>
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Just before the 1997 election a <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/23/world/german-paper-s-words-anger-british-officials.html" style="color: #0099ff; text-decoration: none;" target="_blank">row broke out</a> when the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung described Britain’s then Foreign Secretary, Sir Malcolm Rifkind, as "the Jew Rifkind…" In my diary of the time, I recorded a dinner exchange in Islington, north London between two old university friends:</div>
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"We have a big discussion on anti-Semitism after the Rifkind row. The main protagonists are Jonathan, who says it’s everywhere, and Flavia who says it doesn’t exist. Thus the two worlds of England today. A caring, liberal, wholly English upper-middle class woman who has simply never encountered anti-Semitism and an earnest, engaged, energetic Jew like Jonathan who has never stopped encountering it. I side with Jonathan of course, and it remains a big problem that the rising intolerance, whether it is about Jews or Muslims, is simply not understood by many decent people in this country."</div>
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I came across this entry as I sought to make sense of the <a href="http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/british-jewry-in-turmoil-after-tribunal-blasts-pro-israel-activist-for-bringing-harassment-case.premium-1.514173" style="color: #0099ff; text-decoration: none;">recent ruling</a> on Ronnie Fraser, the college lecturer who sought to persuade an English legal tribunal that the ban decreed by his union against contact with fellow Jews in Israeli colleges and universities was anti-Semitic in its politics.</div>
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Trying to persuade the complacent, comfortable, critical-of-Israel middle classes in England that anti-Semitism is a live problem and one that constantly manifests itself in new forms is an uphill task. Giles Fraser (no relation to Ronnie), is England’s most prominent Anglican priest, and <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2013/apr/05/antisemitic-attacks-hungary-israel" style="color: #0099ff; text-decoration: none;">wrote recently</a> that "Even assimilated Jews are not always protected by their integration with surrounding society."</div>
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Sadly, an English judicial tribunal has just confirmed the Rev. Fraser's thesis. To read in full the banal, contemptuous dismissal of Ronnie Fraser's efforts to show that a one-sided ban on contacts with Jewish academics in Israel, decreed by the U.K.’s University and College Union (of lecturers), was an assault on his existence as a Jew, was a miserable experience.</div>
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Of course, trying to use an employment tribunal as a means to take on institutional anti-Semitism was always a risk. Three decades ago, I was president of the National Union of Journalists, and I saw then how the annual conferences of these small professional unions functions as a playground for political activists, cutting their teeth on all sorts of extremist politics, before moving on.</div>
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To Ronnie Fraser's brave legal team I expressed my concern that employment law judges were not people who were intellectually equipped to deal with the UCU's action against Jews in the U.K. and in Israel. But they believed that the law exists to protect the individual against a powerful, wealthy organization like a trade union.</div>
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They were wrong. The ugliness of the tribunal findings beggars belief. The European Union's definition of anti-Semitism is dismissed. The work of the House of Commons Committee of Inquiry into anti-Semitism that I chaired – which forced a change in government policy to acknowledge anti-Semitic attacks - is rubbished. The efforts of Fraser to use the law are openly insulted. The view of an important public Commission of Inquiry into the 1993 racist murder of a black youth, Stephen Lawrence, which stated that the police are obliged to investigate crimes that the victim of discrimination or attacks believes to be motivated by racial or religious hatred, is thrown away.</div>
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For anti-Semites everywhere this is a big win. After an English court<a href="http://%20http//www.haaretz.com/news/british-historian-irving-loses-appeal-in-holocaust-denial-case-1.64567" style="color: #0099ff; text-decoration: none;">destroyed David Irving </a>for his neo-Nazism, another English court has now 15 years later upheld the right of a union to target Jews. It is a defeat but one that should encourage us all to redouble our efforts precisely at a time that anti-Semitism is growing in strength in Europe, and hate of Israel increases in England.</div>
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Of course there will be some Jewish legal experts in London who insist the case should not have been fought. Anyone who has contact with the law knows the arbitrary, highly personalized nature of judges. In Britain, they come from a narrow, professional, conservative elite. Judges dealing with employment law are experts on workplace grievances, compensation, and unfair dismissal. Asking them to adjudicate on Israel-Palestine, the meaning of Zionism and whether institutional anti-Semitism really exists was a big task.</div>
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I was a witness at the tribunal, and it was clear that I was facing three middle-class English people who - like my friend that I noted in my diary - just refused to accept that anti-Semitism is a contemporary problem. I looked at their implacable, indifferent, bored faces and knew the case was lost. But sometimes it is better to fight and lose than wait for a perfect moment when your case and cause will emerge triumphant.</div>
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Those engaged in combating anti-Semitism in Britain are down-hearted. But although I am not Jewish, I am proud to have been linked with the cause Ronnie Fraser stood for. The struggle goes on despite the faint-hearts and the self-righteous, those who express their wisdom after the event, who wish it had never been engaged.</div>
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What is needed now is a major review of the last decade of combating anti-Semitism and hate of Israel. The <a href="http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/hitler-s-little-mustache-1.412755" style="color: #0099ff; text-decoration: none;">EU’s indifference</a> to the open commemoration of Waffen SS Jew-killers in Lithuania and Latvia, as well as the entry into mainstream<a href="http://%20http//www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/hungary-s-jews-face-down-new-anti-semitism-embrace-heritage-1.485139" style="color: #0099ff; text-decoration: none;"> Hungarian politics of Jew-baiting</a> is worrying.</div>
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In Britain, the anti-European populist party, the United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP), has <a href="http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/106538/ukip-suspends-candidate-over-holocaust-comments" style="color: #0099ff; text-decoration: none;">just had to suspend</a> a leading candidate after allegations that she tweeted about Zionists organizing the Holocaust, and activists from the anti-Jewish British National Party, now in electoral decline, are <a href="http://%20http//www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/25/some-ukip-candidates-possible-bnp-members" style="color: #0099ff; text-decoration: none;">migrating to a UKIP</a> rising in the polls. Expect to see an increase in the number of racist identity politicians, including anti-Semites, elected to the European Parliament in 2014. Leftist and Islamist BDS campaigns grow apace in universities.</div>
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The struggle against anti-Semitism is more relevant than ever; but working out the best strategy and tactics for the next decade of work is now overdue.</div>
levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-79506994000057067932013-02-08T03:06:00.001+00:002013-02-08T03:06:08.299+00:00HP on RM<br />
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I keep noticing these little digs at Jews from certain quarters for not being pro-Israel and/or hawkish enough. Apparently Jews are obliged to push a neo-con agenda in order to be accepted as equals. Nasty stuff. Not that anybody here cares.</div>
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<header style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #777777; font-size: 12px; line-height: 16px; position: relative;"><span class="publisher-anchor-color" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a data-action="profile" data-user="37918746" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(215, 6, 6) !important; font-family: inherit; font-weight: 600; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: initial;">Lbnaz</a></span> <span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#comment-790955680" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; font-size: 11px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: initial;"><i aria-hidden="true" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 9px; padding: 0px 1px;" title="in reply to"></i> Discredited Andrew</a></span> <span aria-hidden="true" class="bullet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #cccccc; font-size: 9px; line-height: 1.4; padding: 0px 3px;">•</span> <a class="time-ago" data-role="relative-time" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#comment-791745534" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; font-size: 11px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: initial;" title="Thursday, February 7 2013 1:40 PM">13 hours ago</a><ul class="post-menu" style="-webkit-transition: 0.2s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: right; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; opacity: 0; padding: 0px; position: relative; top: -2px; visibility: hidden;">
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Of course the neocon agenda. Here's a little snippet for you Discredited Andrew. At our 1980 Annual General Meeting at an undisclosed location, those of us who favoured calling it the Protocols of the Neocon Elders of Zion were only narrowly outmaneuvered by those preferring to call it the Neocon Agenda. Basically, the Neocon Agenda camp were not at all suggesting any break with the agenda of the early 20th century Protocols, rather they wanted a name that would lull enough of the "goyim" into unwittingly acquiescing to that agenda without glimpsing any linkage or continuity between the early 20th c Protocols and the contemporary manifesto outlining our nefarious machinations.</div>
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We are succeeding in this ruse and so you Discredited Andrew and those like you who truly grasp the linkage between the Neocon Agenda and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion have a steep uphill climb to convince the masses of our nefarious schemes. You have your work cut out for you. Good luck with that.</div>
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Murdoch would not know irony if it bit him in his rear. He may have been sarcastic when he asked why Jewish-owned newspapers like the Washington Post and the New York Times are so critical of Israel, but irony is beyond a bully like Murdoch</div>
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Of course, disliking Rupert Murdoch automatically means he is incapable of comprehending or employing irony. And why just stop at irony, disliking Rupert Murdoch must also automatically mean he is incapable of smiling, laughing or crying.</div>
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<header style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #777777; font-size: 12px; line-height: 16px; position: relative;"><span class="publisher-anchor-color" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a data-action="profile" data-user="32890051" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(215, 6, 6) !important; font-family: inherit; font-weight: 600; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: initial;">vildechaye</a></span> <span aria-hidden="true" class="bullet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #cccccc; font-size: 9px; line-height: 1.4; padding: 0px 3px;">•</span> <a class="time-ago" data-role="relative-time" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#comment-789889095" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; font-size: 11px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: initial;" title="Tuesday, February 5 2013 11:35 PM">2 days ago</a><ul class="post-menu" style="-webkit-transition: 0.2s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: right; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; opacity: 0; padding: 0px; position: relative; top: -2px; visibility: hidden;">
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Here's a way to end this absolutely stultifying stupid "argument" with flying rat: He asked:</div>
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"So if Steve Bell starts talking seriously about Jewish-owned media's anti-Israel bias, he'll get a free pass, will he?"</div>
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Yes he would get a free pass. Of course, Steve Bell would never say that, as he believes quite the opposite.</div>
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The overwhelming impression I got from listening to Steve Bell's appearance on the Today programme was that a) he was way out of his depth and does not understand properly what antisemitism is - certainly not the blood libel - and b) he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer.</div>
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Yes, I only got round to listening to it after this post went up. But he struck me as more unpleasant than stupid.</div>
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Terrible about Lars Hedergaard (not that I am a fan)</div>
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From the PCC ruling on Steven Bells puppet Cartoon:</div>
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"Under the terms of Clause 12 (Discrimination) of the Code, newspapers ‘must avoid prejudicial or pejorative reference to an individual’s race, colour, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or to any physical or mental illness or disability’. The terms of the Clause do not, however, cover references to groups or categories of people, such as Jewish people in general. While the Commission acknowledged that many complainants considered the article to have been anti-Semitic and prejudicial toward Jewish people as a group, therefore, it was unable to establish a breach of the Code on this basis."</div>
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This suggests that they dont view anti-semitism as racism as they see Jews as a group, not a race.</div>
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So something could actually be deemed to be anti-semitic and wouldn't breach the PCC code so they wouldnt rule on it.</div>
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Perhaps this is why Mr Bell and his fellow travellers keep getting away with this crap.</div>
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<i style="box-sizing: border-box;">While the Commission acknowledged that many complainants considered the article to have been anti-Semitic and prejudicial toward Jewish people as a group, therefore, it was unable to establish a breach of the Code on this basis."</i><br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />On that basis the PCC would have no problem with Motoons or publishing "Charlie Hebdo" as a guest writer.</div>
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Taking a second look: Bell has really gone over the edge in Breitbartian fashion.</div>
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In fairness I think political cartoons are shit in general.</div>
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By its nature characature attracts 'artists' who see others purely in terms of skin colour, hooked or flat noses, ginger hair, big ears, buck teeth, squinted eyes or an actual disability.</div>
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Physical characature is the art of demonising those who don't conform to the Aryan ideal: once you've made them physically abhorent it's easy to characterise them as wicked, corrupt, manipulative, sexually perverse, etc.</div>
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<i style="box-sizing: border-box;">In fairness I think political cartoons are shit in general.</i></div>
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There are masters of the craft like the late <a href="http://www.loc.gov/rr/print/swann/herblock/" rel="nofollow" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(215, 6, 6) !important; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: initial;">Herblock</a>. And then there are mean-spirited, frequently incomprehensible hacks like Steve Bell.</div>
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<header style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #777777; font-size: 12px; line-height: 16px; position: relative;"><span class="publisher-anchor-color" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a data-action="profile" data-user="13995329" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(215, 6, 6) !important; font-family: inherit; font-weight: 600; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: initial;">andy_gill</a></span> <span aria-hidden="true" class="bullet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #cccccc; font-size: 9px; line-height: 1.4; padding: 0px 3px;">•</span> <a class="time-ago" data-role="relative-time" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#comment-789397484" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; font-size: 11px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: initial;" title="Tuesday, February 5 2013 4:39 PM">2 days ago</a><ul class="post-menu" style="-webkit-transition: 0.2s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: right; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; opacity: 0; padding: 0px; position: relative; top: -2px; visibility: hidden;">
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Bell is a self-righteous bullying pillock. He lost control on the Today programme when debating with a dignified Stephen Pollard of the Jewish Chronicle, and he's still fuming with shame and embarrassment.</div>
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And now he's making an even bigger tit of himself. He can dish it out, but the poor fellow can't take it. Nice to see him being on the receiving end for a change.</div>
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Mick Hartley is spot on as usual:<a href="http://mickhartley.typepad.com/blog/2013/02/bell-end.html" rel="nofollow" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(215, 6, 6) !important; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: initial;">http://mickhartley.typepad.com...</a></div>
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Yes Nicole ,<br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />Steve Bell(end)! A nick name that will hopefully stick!</div>
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I think the one on the right might be Kruschev but I'm not sure why he's talking to the Mekon.</div>
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These new cartoons go a step further than Bell's last Netanyahu cartoon - in addition to using the puppetmaster trope again, he also defiantly asserts his right to use it, while mocking the idea that anti-Semitic tropes even exist.</div>
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He's really not even trying to keep his mask from slipping anymore.</div>
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Poor old Steve, he just can't stop himself going on digging, digging, digging.</div>
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Trouble is, he doesn't see it as digging, nor do his fans.<br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />In fact it's what they want.</div>
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<header style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #777777; font-size: 12px; line-height: 16px; position: relative;"><span class="publisher-anchor-color" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a data-action="profile" data-user="32890051" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(215, 6, 6) !important; font-family: inherit; font-weight: 600; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: initial;">vildechaye</a></span> <span aria-hidden="true" class="bullet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #cccccc; font-size: 9px; line-height: 1.4; padding: 0px 3px;">•</span> <a class="time-ago" data-role="relative-time" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#comment-789354523" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; font-size: 11px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: initial;" title="Tuesday, February 5 2013 4:03 PM">2 days ago</a><ul class="post-menu" style="-webkit-transition: 0.2s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: right; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; opacity: 0; padding: 0px; position: relative; top: -2px; visibility: hidden;">
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I realize this wasn't his intent, but in that first comic strip, he's actually undermining the position of those who think like him. He probably believes he's saying that the press can't be anti-Israel because it's Jewish owned, but it can just as easily be read the other way: i.e. how can the press be "jewish-owned" if it's consistently anti-Israel, which in Britain, seems pretty much to be the case, whereas, also in Britain, the press ISNT primarily Jewish owned. (Actually, it isn't primarily Jewish owned anywhere, but that's another story.)</div>
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I do of course recognize that the figures as they're drawn lend themselves to the interpretation Bell wanted, but given the fact that the British press does take an anti-israel line most of the time and that it isn't Jewish owned, the latter interpretation is more accurate (in my opinion, anyway).</div>
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Steve Bell remains a wholly unfunny Jew hating cunt who should no longer be getting a platform in a national newspaper. But the Jew hatred has always been endemic at The Guardian.</div>
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Being <strike style="border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">quarantined</strike> published in the Guardian is the best place for him; at least no real people will have to read his bollox.</div>
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In fairness to steve Bell, he doesn't only hate Jews. He hates Brits, Americans, tories, the labour party, and anyone who isn't a quasi-progressive ultra-liberal pro-Islamist f*ckwit like him.<br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />So that leaves a few Guardian readers and writers, basically.</div>
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I'm not sure I understand Mr. Bell's point. But I'm left with a distressing feeling of sympathy for two of my least favorite people: Rupert Murdoch and Bibi Netanyahu.</div>
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I'd suggest that Steve Bell is giving the finger to his critics.</div>
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Further, I suspect that he might be making an extremely pertinent point, i.e. that it's very odd indeed that many people - folk from various ethic, national and religious backgrounds, but who share very similar political beliefs - will go absolutely berserk about certain forms of antisemitic tropes, but find excuses or generally tut-tut and mildly fingerwag others.</div>
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For instance - isn't it odd that there's such a massive outcry when little-known cartoonists draw politicians with puppets or blood and so on, but barely any upset at all from the same people when Rupert Murdoch, the most powerful media figure on Earth, starts blathering about Jewish-controlled media?</div>
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I mean, that is odd, isn't it? Rupert Murdoch has a global reach, in media terms, whereas 99.9% of the populace of the UK will never even see a Steve Bell cartoon.</div>
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Which would certainly lead me to believe that the entire issue may have more to do with heavily-politicised bullshit than it does with any matter of principle.</div>
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Does Steve Bell believe that? I've no idea, but I suspect he'd be correct if he did. It would certainly mean that he isn't laughing at anti-semitism, so much as he's laughing at his critics as individuals, for being mendacious, opportunistic fannies. Which is fair enough, in at least half the cases I've seen, I'd say.</div>
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It's not impossible that Bell thinks he is making this deeply ironic point. But successful irony depends on the ironist having understood what it is he is trying to be ironic about. Otherwise he seems dim-witted or incomprehensible.</div>
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You might think about that in your own case.</div>
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By the way, since satirists are supposed to get us to laugh at the ridiculousness of nasty opinions, rather than just feel deeply shocked and outraged, it's rather a pity that Bell doesn't try to get as to "laugh at antisemitism" but rather to jeer or otherwise emote "with antisemitism".</div>
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<i style="box-sizing: border-box;">It's not impossible that Bell thinks he is making this deeply ironic point.</i></div>
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I'd say it's fairly clear that Bell is saying - screw Murdoch, screw Stephen Pollard in particular and screw the type of militant radge that hangs about in HP comments threads, detecting racism all over the place, but with convenient frequency in the behaviours of folk they just happen to violently disagree with anyway. Murdoch having previously made comments that would land non-right-wing-nutters in deep hassle with such folks is just a club to hit you and your political fellow-thinkers with.</div>
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I think Bell's a bit of an arse, as it happens. He could've made his point - that every Israeli assault on wherever turns into a feeble political charade worldwide, as western leaders automatically side with Netanyahu or his predecessor for self-interested reasons, IIRC - without the whiffy puppet analogy, and that once brought up on it he should've shown a bit of humility. Very clearly, he thinks that his cartoon was of a piece with the way he'd treat any other politician in such circumstances, and that his critics are basically politically-motivated bullshitters, rather than upstanding anti-racist crusaders.</div>
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There's more than a ring of truth to this, by the way, but there are diplomatic ways to phrase reasonable arguments that are guaranteed to enrage people who are already pissed. Instead, he's reacted to the Scarfe nonsense by basically extending a middle finger to the lot of his critics. It's an arsey, childish and counter-productive way to deal with the situation, but he's always struck me as that kind of guy. I'm often like that myself.</div>
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That said, this kind of thing didn't used to happen. The usual crowd here are saying that this is all because the Graun is the new Sturmer, and who knows? Perhaps they hold black cabals of violent bigotry, just out of the throbbing black hate in their middle-class, metropolitan hearts.</div>
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On the other hand, I'd ask you to consider for a moment that quite a few folk in the media now seem to be treating these kinds of complaints not as a serious issue, but much as they would bitching from any kind of loony minority interest group with a bee in its bonnet that accuses them of Nazism.</div>
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Assuming I'm right about that - and I'm reasonably sure that I am - how do you think the fight for Israel's good name and anti-racism in the UK is going, guys? Is the instant-Nazi-accusation-without-pause-for-thought mode of argument working well, would you say? Having the desired results?</div>
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And if it isn't, well, maybe it's time for a change of tack, eh?</div>
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<i style="box-sizing: border-box;">when Rupert Murdoch, the most powerful media figure on Earth, starts blathering about Jewish-controlled media?</i></div>
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You are being disingenuous. Murdoch was mocking the 'anti-zionist' trope that Jews control the media (as well as politicians etc.) <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">and that as a result</i> critics of Israel are 'silenced'. His tweet is a comment on the absurdity of that trope - in the first place anti-Israel critics aren't silenced in the media; in the second, Jewish people in the media are if anything accomodating, not obstructing of criticism of Israel. And in the third case, the source of the tweet itself is a reminder that obviously Jews don't control the media - Murdoch himself is not a Jew (although countless 'anti-zionists' have assumed he is), and in fact he's the most powerful media magnate in the world.</div>
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By contrast, when Steve Bell depicted the Israeli PM as puppeting British politicians, he wasn't mocking or ironising the trope of Jewish control. He was simply re-using it.</div>
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<i style="box-sizing: border-box;">I mean, that is odd, isn't it? Rupert Murdoch has a global reach, in media terms,</i></div>
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Yes, and I am sure he knows that. It's only odd if you insist on reading Murdoch, of all people, as truly arguing that Jews control the global media, rather than taking the piss of that trope.</div>
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RE: You are being disingenuous.</div>
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DA-lite-lite's stock in trade.</div>
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Or, reading exactly what he tweeted, possibly wondering why it is that Jewish owned "liberal" publications and, for that matter journalists like Tom Friedmann who scribbles for the NYT, are generally more critical of Israel than non-Jewish owned "liberal" media.<br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />The flip side of this is that the perception out there is that if these publications held Israel to the same standards as they hold most other nations, it wouild be seen as soft-pedalling due to bias.</div>
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<i style="box-sizing: border-box;">The flip side of this is that the perception out there is that if these publications held Israel to the same standards as they hold most other nations, it wouild be seen as soft-pedalling due to bias.</i></div>
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Yes - because (some of these) these liberal organs (ooo missus) are owned by Jews and / or have 'a disproportionate' number of journalists who are Jews working in them, they must be seen as attacking Israel fiercely lest they be accused of bias or worse (5th columnblahblah, Israelfirstersblahblah).</div>
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[but barely any upset at all from the same people when Rupert Murdoch, <br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />the most powerful media figure on Earth, starts blathering about <br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />Jewish-controlled media?]</div>
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It rather depends what he blathers. He blathered Jewish +owned+ media was consistently anti-Israel. He was scarcely using an antisemitic trope thereby.</div>
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<i style="box-sizing: border-box;">He blathered Jewish +owned+ media was consistently anti-Israel. He was scarcely using an antisemitic trope thereby.</i></div>
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And that's fairly convenient, isn't it? Google seems to disagree, since a cursory search brings up a frighteningly long list of nutters, cranks and racists.</div>
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So if Steve Bell starts talking seriously about Jewish-owned media's anti-Israel bias, he'll get a free pass, will he? Or is it only not a trope within the very specific context of "Jewish-owned media" being discussed by a man who just coincidentally happens to be a highly belligerent, right-wing fan of bombing the Palestinians and everyone else?</div>
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Because you know, that looks pretty convenient too.</div>
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<header style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #777777; font-size: 12px; line-height: 16px; position: relative;"><span class="publisher-anchor-color" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a data-action="profile" data-user="32890051" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(215, 6, 6) !important; font-family: inherit; font-weight: 600; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: initial;">vildechaye</a></span> <span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#comment-789444245" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; font-size: 11px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: initial;"><i aria-hidden="true" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 9px; padding: 0px 1px;" title="in reply to"></i> flyingrodent</a></span> <span aria-hidden="true" class="bullet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #cccccc; font-size: 9px; line-height: 1.4; padding: 0px 3px;">•</span> <a class="time-ago" data-role="relative-time" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#comment-789680916" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; font-size: 11px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: initial;" title="Tuesday, February 5 2013 8:28 PM">2 days ago</a><ul class="post-menu" style="-webkit-transition: 0.2s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: right; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; opacity: 0; padding: 0px; position: relative; top: -2px; visibility: hidden;">
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Do you work at being an idiot or does it just come naturally to you? Since when is a non-Jews control the media remark (Murdoch) the same as a Jews DO control the media (Bell) the same?</div>
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[So if Steve Bell starts talking seriously about Jewish-owned media's anti-Israel bias, he'll get a free pass, will he?]</div>
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Murdoch didn't get a 'free pass' because he wasn't seen as saying anything particularly harmful, even if anecdotally most Jews I know would have raised eyebrows about its being true, anecdotally most Jews' I know sympathising with Israel.</div>
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It depends what he means by being 'anti'-Israel: 'critical' or 'genuinely hostile.' The former is unlikely to rouse much antipathy, the latter chiefly bemusement. If he meant the latter and attempted to effect some end which Jews generally thought detrimental to Israel, that might be different i.e. if they felt Murdoch was genuinely misrepresenting +them+ in some situation that mattered.</div>
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I think Murdoch just meant that (in his experience) when non-Jews such as he say or write something sympathetic to Israel, a Jewish journalist or writer will adduce a contrary argument.</div>
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Jews have a history of comporting themselves and their views with (what they regard as) the authority, since historically that has ensured their survival. Ironically sometimes a non-Jew, who does not feel so constrained, will feel freer to express views sympathetic to some Jews than other Jews.This has not been an uncommon situation since the Reformation and Enlightenment, the Jewish establishment being often more rigorous in its criticisms of its own than society generally e.g. the British Board of Jewish Deputies historically often overruled or ignored grassroots sympathy for Zionism, publicly criticising it in strong terms, lest, they felt, sympathy for it brought some penalty or discrimination against (what they saw as) their Jewish charges.</div>
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[And that's fairly convenient, isn't it? Google seems to disagree, since<br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />a cursory search brings up a frighteningly long list of nutters, cranks<br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />and racists.]</div>
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Really? That Jewish owned media is consistently +anti+-Israel?</div>
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Do you even read what you write or are writing about?</div>
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" Google seems to disagree, since a cursory search brings up a frighteningly long list of nutters, cranks and racists."</div>
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A cursory search of what? Of the idea that Jewish-owned press is consistently <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">anti</i>-Israel?</div>
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Where? Examples please?</div>
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Was it really a 'cursory' search, or just a dimwitted one in which you confused 'anti-Israel' with 'pro-Israel'?</div>
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[Was it really a 'cursory' search, or just a dimwitted one in which you confused 'anti-Israel' with 'pro-Israel'?]</div>
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Methinks the latter.</div>
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Yes - the nutcases in high and low places all believe that Jews exert power via their control of the media which enables Jews and their proxy, Israel, to conceal their and its crimes which range from fomenting war to carrying out genocide.</div>
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Murdoch does not believe this.</div>
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<i style="box-sizing: border-box;">Murdoch does not believe this.</i></div>
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This is either a vastly greater level of intellectual charity than is normally applied round these parts, or an incredible example of mind-reading.</div>
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It's also an exceptional raising of the bar for what is and is not suspicious, isn't it? I'm sure you'd admit that a Bell or a Scarfe would have a thousand angry Tweets shoved down their necks if they tried something similar. That's before we get onto statesmen or media figures.</div>
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you've totally lost whatever plot you may once have had. truly pathetic one doesn't need intellectual "charity" to understand Murdoch's remark was quite the OPPOSITE of anti-semitism or of Bell's supposed satire. It fairly screams out. you're embarrassing yourself.</div>
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Okay, okay. So, next time some well-known figure drops a zinger about how weirdly "the Jewish-owned media" acts during a crisis, that'll be fine.</div>
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So long as it's someone with sufficiently belligerent, bomb 'em all opinions, that is. If they said it while calling for <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">less</i> bombing, <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">that</i> would be unacceptable. More bombing though? Dandy.</div>
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Nope, you guys surely have this one right. It's surely perfectly reasonable to imply that media organs should act in a particular manner because of the ethnicity of their owners, even if media as propaganda by folk of that ethnicity was a Nazi favourite. Why, that's the OPPOSITE of racism, isn't it?</div>
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[It's surely perfectly reasonable to imply that media organs should act <br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />in a particular manner because of the ethnicity of their owners]</div>
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How did Murdoch do that?</div>
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[even if<br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />media as propaganda by folk of that ethnicity was a Nazi favourite. <br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />Why, that's the OPPOSITE of racism, isn't it?]</div>
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I don't know about 'opposite'. But it isn't necessarily racist. Racism is normally something meant as bad about a particular group.</div>
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It's true that philo-ethnicity, such as philosemitism can be a form of inverse racism. 'All Jews are wonderful' can, in its own way, be just as a pernicious as 'All Jews are awful'.</div>
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But did Murdoch do that? He just said he found Jewish authors to be anti-Israel. I'm not sure what he meant by that. I think it may have been a kind of criticism. But it was hardly a smear, unless you think it is, do you?</div>
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<i style="box-sizing: border-box;">How did Murdoch do that?</i></div>
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I think that if any public figure not known to be a rock-solid-Israel-is-awesome-bombs-away type came out and started musing on how weird it was that the "Jewish-owned" media acted in a particular way at "times of crisis", we'd find out all the dire implications of those musings in short order. If, say, Rusbridger said the same or similar, we'd hear all about the vile slurs being invoked, forever, and no amount of self-justification on his part would calm it for a second.</div>
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Is everybody going to keep pretending not to grasp this? Is extremely difficult to keep up with who's pretending not to understand what, and how transparently they're doing it, with this infuriating comments system.</div>
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[Okay, okay. So, next time some well-known figure drops a zinger about <br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />how weirdly "the Jewish-owned media" acts during a crisis, that'll be <br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />fine.]</div>
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The criteria for racism is rarely its merely attributing 'weirdness' to its target.</div>
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It wouldn't be regarded as racism against African-Americans to say they are invariably kind, friendly and helpful, or critical of their own when their own do wrong.</div>
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[So long as it's someone with sufficiently belligerent, bomb 'em all opinions, that is.]</div>
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You mean the way that Murdoch says Jewish owned media +doesn't+ encourage Israel to bomb 'em all?</div>
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You mean you believe the opposite to be true, and that Murdoch is lying?</div>
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[This is either a vastly greater level of intellectual charity than is <br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />normally applied round these parts, or an incredible example of <br style="box-sizing: border-box;" />mind-reading.]</div>
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??????????????</div>
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You really +haven't+ read what Murdoch said, have you?</div>
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"This is either a vastly greater level of intellectual charity than is normally applied round these parts, or an incredible example of mind-reading."</div>
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How do you explain that Murdoch pointed out that Jewish-owned papers such as the NYT actually criticise Israel, <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">not</i> take its side?</div>
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How on earth is contradicting the loony trope that Jews in the media, or who actually own newspapers automatically take the side of Israel, an example of affirming said trope?</div>
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Your logic is standing on its head.</div>
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You think Murdoch believes Jews control the media and use this control to cover up their crimes and that of Israel? Didn't you just bang on about Murdoch above stating:</div>
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<i style="box-sizing: border-box;">.....that would mean a destructive argument with a powerful figure who agrees with your politics.</i></div>
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You think my politics (?) involve believing that Jews control the media and use it to cover up the crimes of Zion?</div>
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<i style="box-sizing: border-box;">You think Murdoch believes Jews control the media and use this control to cover up their crimes and that of Israel?</i></div>
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If I thought that, I'd have said it. I'm good like that.</div>
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I think the overwhelming majority of political and media figures on Earth would've got a Bell-sized monstering if they'd started yakking on about Jewish-owned media, from your good selves, no less. I think Murdoch not only gets a pass for this, but gets defended to the hilt, because he's a well-known right-wing mentalist with a raging passion for bombing large tracts of the Middle East.</div>
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And further, I'm saying that this is because Rupe shares the politics of various other right-wing mentalists who have a raging passion etc. etc. because everything involved - the cartoons, the media mogul, and the highly flexible attitude towards the two - has far more to do with said mentalists and their bomb-happiness than it has to do with anything else.</div>
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Total nutcase. End of.</div>
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<header style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #777777; font-size: 12px; line-height: 16px; position: relative;"><span class="publisher-anchor-color" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a data-action="profile" data-user="9897771" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(215, 6, 6) !important; font-family: inherit; font-weight: 600; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: initial;">zachary esterson</a></span> <span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#comment-789527978" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; font-size: 11px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: initial;"><i aria-hidden="true" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 9px; padding: 0px 1px;" title="in reply to"></i> flyingrodent</a></span> <span aria-hidden="true" class="bullet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #cccccc; font-size: 9px; line-height: 1.4; padding: 0px 3px;">•</span> <a class="time-ago" data-role="relative-time" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#comment-789666477" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; font-size: 11px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: initial;" title="Tuesday, February 5 2013 8:17 PM">2 days ago</a><ul class="post-menu" style="-webkit-transition: 0.2s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: right; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; opacity: 0; padding: 0px; position: relative; top: -2px; visibility: hidden;">
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[If I thought that, I'd have said it. I'm good like that]</div>
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No. You've just realised you didn't read what Murdoch said in the first place.</div>
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"if they'd started yakking on about Jewish-owned media,"</div>
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Again, you are being dishonest by omission. He was mocking the trope that Jewish-owned press is pro-Israel. He pointed out that on the contrary, Jewish-owned press is extremely accomodating of anti-Israel sentiment - i.e. there is no Jewish zionist media conspiracy.</div>
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Bell, meanwhile, is happy to re-use the trope of Jewish control of politicians. And you've spent this whole thread evading that and taking Bell's side. As someone once said: how convenient.</div>
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<i style="box-sizing: border-box;">Again, you are being dishonest by omission. He was mocking the trope that Jewish-owned press is pro-Israel.</i></div>
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This point has been repeatedly addressed.</div>
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[This point has been repeatedly addressed.]</div>
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Really, where?</div>
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No it hasn't. You are conveniently treating a satirical (because explicitly pointing out the contrary reality) mocking of the trope of a pro-Israel Jewish media as if it were an example of said trope.</div>
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Meanwhile you are treating an example of the trope of zionist control of non-Israeli politicians by Bell as not antisemitic at all.</div>
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You are either completely dishonest or you can't manage basic logic. Or possibly both.</div>
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I vote for both. Flying Wanker will bend over backwards to prettify and whitewash on behalf of those who employ bog standard canards targeting Jews as malevolent hegemons hindering peace and justice for their own filthy lucre and he will if necessary also resort as Carol Churchill did, to excusing the bigotry with the alibi that hey the canard that Jews run the world, or the media was only referring to particular individuals who happen to be Jewish: a bog standard response that Norman Geras recognizes as a salient feature of what he termed alibi antisemitism. Herein lies his dishonesty, because he enters the discussion with the a priori determination to whitewash and prettify Jew baiting regardless of the facts at hand in any particular instance as long as the person or persons trumpeting the canard as if it were legitimate politics as opposed to crass bigotry ridden populism are not extreme right white supremacists.</div>
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Flying Arsehole demonstrated his obstinate stupidity in this thread by continuing to insist against any semblance of reality that Rupert Murdoch's blatantly obvious dismissal of those who trumpet the Jews control the media canard is instead an instance of antisemitism.</div>
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So both: Flying Rodent is both disingenuous and a wanker. And there isn't anything particularly surprising that an arsehole would also be a wanker.</div>
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Correct. And thus in flying rodent's strange world Rupert Murdoch is an antisemite while Steve Bell, the man who depicts the Israeli PM manipulating British politicians as puppets is... someone who is not only not an anti-semite, but on the contrary an exposer of anti-semitism.</div>
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I would say that Murdoch was being ironic. I know, I know - it is difficult for a certain type of Brit to understand that irony is used by non-Brits. How very dare they etc.</div>
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<i style="box-sizing: border-box;">.... whereas 99.9% of the populace of the UK will never even see a Steve Bell cartoon.</i></div>
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So very true - thank fuck for that - and this lack of recognition of his genius is almost unendurable to Bell and those love him - how unfair it all is.</div>
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If he was being ironic then why did he apologise?</div>
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<header style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #777777; font-size: 12px; line-height: 16px; position: relative;"><span class="publisher-anchor-color" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a data-action="profile" data-user="43012036" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(215, 6, 6) !important; font-family: inherit; font-weight: 600; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: initial;">flyingrodent</a></span> <span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#comment-789429694" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; font-size: 11px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: initial;"><i aria-hidden="true" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 9px; padding: 0px 1px;" title="in reply to"></i> Jimithefox</a></span> <span aria-hidden="true" class="bullet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #cccccc; font-size: 9px; line-height: 1.4; padding: 0px 3px;">•</span> <a class="time-ago" data-role="relative-time" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#comment-789437063" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; font-size: 11px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: initial;" title="Tuesday, February 5 2013 5:12 PM">2 days ago</a><ul class="post-menu" style="-webkit-transition: 0.2s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: right; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; opacity: 0; padding: 0px; position: relative; top: -2px; visibility: hidden;">
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<i style="box-sizing: border-box;">I would say that Murdoch was being ironic.</i></div>
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Well, that's certainly convenient that you think that, isn't it?</div>
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Otherwise, a major letter-writing, blog-spamming, email-bombing campaign would be in order, and that would mean a destructive argument with a powerful figure who agrees with your politics. That could take up a lot of time that could otherwise be spent badgering people who don't.</div>
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Which would be highly inconvenient, wouldn't it?</div>
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<header style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #777777; font-size: 12px; line-height: 16px; position: relative;"><span class="publisher-anchor-color" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a data-action="profile" data-user="32890051" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(215, 6, 6) !important; font-family: inherit; font-weight: 600; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: initial;">vildechaye</a></span> <span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#comment-789437063" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; font-size: 11px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: initial;"><i aria-hidden="true" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 9px; padding: 0px 1px;" title="in reply to"></i> flyingrodent</a></span> <span aria-hidden="true" class="bullet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #cccccc; font-size: 9px; line-height: 1.4; padding: 0px 3px;">•</span> <a class="time-ago" data-role="relative-time" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#comment-789686536" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; font-size: 11px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: initial;" title="Tuesday, February 5 2013 8:33 PM">2 days ago</a><ul class="post-menu" style="-webkit-transition: 0.2s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: right; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; opacity: 0; padding: 0px; position: relative; top: -2px; visibility: hidden;">
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too stupid for serious responses, fellas</div>
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Why is it convenient to point out that Murdoch is capable of using irony? The man tweets the following:</div>
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<i style="box-sizing: border-box;">Why Is Jewish owned press so consistently anti- Israel in every crisis?</i></div>
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To note that there are (forms of) 'press' which are owned by Jews - eg the NYT - and that such publications are consistently anti-Israel is worth commenting on in part to illuminate the idiocy of the anti-semitic mantra - 'Jews control the media' with the implication that this control enables 'the crimes of Israel to remain hidden' and in part, of course, to mock his rivals.</div>
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<i style="box-sizing: border-box;">Why is it convenient to point out that Murdoch is capable of using irony?</i></div>
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Because the "it's irony" defence would last about three seconds before being ruthlessly demolished by a horde of commentators and blog commenters, if it came from the mouths of 95% of public figures?</div>
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Because it's damn strange that a guy like Stephen Pollard, who had a shouting match with Steve Bell over the content of cartoons on the nation's main news radio station just last week, wasn't aware that Murdoch had made this comment until he was told about it, today?</div>
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And because freaking out about one and dismissing the other is <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">extremely</i> convenient, if the aim is highly-political trolling?</div>
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<header style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #777777; font-size: 12px; line-height: 16px; position: relative;"><span class="publisher-anchor-color" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a data-action="profile" data-user="32890051" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(215, 6, 6) !important; font-family: inherit; font-weight: 600; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: initial;">vildechaye</a></span> <span style="box-sizing: border-box;"><a class="parent-link" data-role="parent-link" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#comment-789483670" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; font-size: 11px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative; text-decoration: initial;"><i aria-hidden="true" class="icon-forward" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 9px; padding: 0px 1px;" title="in reply to"></i> flyingrodent</a></span> <span aria-hidden="true" class="bullet" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #cccccc; font-size: 9px; line-height: 1.4; padding: 0px 3px;">•</span> <a class="time-ago" data-role="relative-time" href="http://hurryupharry.org/2013/02/05/cartoons-and-stuff/#comment-789688102" style="-webkit-transition: color 0.1s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: inherit; font-size: 11px; line-height: 1; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; text-decoration: initial;" title="Tuesday, February 5 2013 8:34 PM">2 days ago</a><ul class="post-menu" style="-webkit-transition: 0.2s linear; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; float: right; font-family: inherit; line-height: 1; list-style: none; margin: 0px; opacity: 0; padding: 0px; position: relative; top: -2px; visibility: hidden;">
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AT this point, it's clearly just baiting. i think FR just got promoted to DA-lite, demoting Damon to second division DA-lite-lite.</div>
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You can count on flyingrodent to defend Joo hating bigotry. Somethings never change.</div>
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Pointing out the absurdity of the trope of pro-Israel Jewish-control of the press becomes in mad flyingrodent world an example of antisemitism. Recycling the trope of Jewish control of politicians becomes... not antisemitism at all, just 'putting the finger up' at critics. Convenient indeed.</div>
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Are you on drugs?</div>
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His point: Anti-Semitism doesn't actually exist. It's just something Jews have invented in order to persecute righteous critics like Steve Bell.</div>
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Bell's point is "Fuck the Yids. Ha Ha Ha".</div>
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</section>levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-19336196810072854962012-12-03T12:41:00.001+00:002012-12-03T12:42:49.190+00:00The Return of Harry's Place<span style="background-color: #dddddd; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">This is Google's cache of </span><a href="http://hurryupharry.org/" rel="noreferrer" style="color: #0000cc; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">http://hurryupharry.org/</a><span style="background-color: #dddddd; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on 3 Dec 2012 01:42:45 GMT. The </span><a href="http://hurryupharry.org/" rel="noreferrer" style="color: #0000cc; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">current page</a><span style="background-color: #dddddd; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"> could have changed in the meantime. </span><a href="http://support.google.com/websearch/bin/answer.py?hl=en&p=cached&answer=1687222" rel="noreferrer" style="color: #0000cc; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">Learn more</a><br style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" /><span style="background-color: #dddddd; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">Tip: To quickly find your search term on this page, press </span><b style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">Ctrl+F</b><span style="background-color: #dddddd; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"> or </span><b style="font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">⌘-F</b><span style="background-color: #dddddd; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"> (Mac) and use the find bar.</span><br />
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<a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2012/11/26/an-island-of-sanity/" rel="noreferrer" style="color: #444444; margin: 5px 0px 15px; text-decoration: initial;" title="“An island of sanity”">“An island of sanity”</a></h2>
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<span class="author" style="font-weight: bold;">Gene</span>, November 26th 2012, 10:00 am</div>
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Wounded Israeli and Palestinian children are <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/25/world/meast/sidner-children-israel-gaza-conflict/index.html?hpt=hp_c1" rel="noreferrer" style="color: #fa4949;">treated</a> at Sheba Medical Center near Tel Aviv.</div>
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<span class="smallallcaps bold" style="font-size: 10px; font-weight: 700; text-transform: uppercase;">KEYWORDS:</span> <a href="http://hurryupharry.org/category/israelpalestine/" rel="noreferrer" style="color: #fa4949;" title="View all posts in Israel/Palestine">Israel/Palestine</a>.</div>
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levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-73714502402329528372012-12-01T10:17:00.000+00:002012-12-01T10:17:07.534+00:00Harry's Place webcache: Who Killed Jihad Masharawi’s Son, Omar?<br />
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<a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2012/11/25/who-killed-jihad-masharawis-son-omar/" rel="noreferrer" title="Who Killed Jihad Masharawi’s Son, Omar?">Who Killed Jihad Masharawi’s Son, Omar?</a></h2>
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<span class="author">Alan A</span>, November 25th 2012, 7:30 pm</div>
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On the 14th of November, the son of BBC video editor Jihad Masharawi died. Here is his account of what happened:<br />
<blockquote>
Interviewer: “Our condolences, Jihad. Tell me what happened with you.”<br />
JM: “Shrapnel hit our house.”<br />
Interviewer: “Shrapnel?”<br />
JM: “Yes. My sister-in-law was killed along with my son and my brother and my other son were wounded.<br />
Interviewer: “In which area?”<br />
JM: “In al Zeitoun.</blockquote>
Zeitoun is a district of Gaza which hosted Iranian Fajr 5 missile sites, ready for launching into Israel. Here is a photograph of one such site:<br />
<img src="http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQSSqUqBedgcDmLamVoHyS0xeT29UyEIKJhvEEa3HqPDZuovBlDX-t1j8OU" /><br />
[I've got this pic from the Israel Defense Forces site via <a href="http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&sa=N&tbo=d&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUK255&biw=1440&bih=775&tbm=isch&tbnid=FFDp6zISjYZDLM:&imgrefurl=http://www.idfblog.com/2012/11/14/live-updates-idf-terror-targets-gaza/fajr5site/&docid=q24f-ThJyRpExM&imgurl=http://www.idfblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/fajr5site.jpg&w=1024&h=955&ei=Jti5UP-vN-uY0QXh44HQDw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=4&vpy=170&dur=2856&hovh=217&hovw=232&tx=113&ty=87&sig=107752267478400830322&page=1&tbnh=138&tbnw=167&start=0&ndsp=27&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:90">google</a> which seems to be where Harry's Place got it from. The pic as it appeared on the HP site is missing from the cache.]<br />
<br />
It is, as you can see, situated within a civilian area.<br />
As you can see by looking at <a href="https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=gaza+city&hl=en&ll=31.513215,34.503765&spn=0.037903,0.076818&sll=51.528642,-0.101599&sspn=0.44256,1.229095&t=h&hnear=Gaza&z=14" rel="noreferrer">aerial photographs of the Gaza Strip</a>, the area contains a large amount of open and agricultural land. It would be entirely possible for Hamas and its allies to store their missiles in and fire them from somewhere other than residential and civilian areas: near mosques, hospitals, playgrounds, football fields, and private homes. However, they choose instead to situate them in locations where they know that, if they are hit by even the most precise of surgical airstrikes, the secondary explosions will quite possibly cause destruction and death in their area.<br />
I’ve posted below a short video which shows what happens when Israel hits an ammunition cache. These are precisely the consequences that Hamas intends. It is often said that this tactic amounts to sheltering behind skirts and prams as it seeks to kill Israeli civilians. I think that’s precisely what it is.<br />
<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0" height="350" width="425"><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Kv7WzsL2mQc"></object><br />
Who killed Jihad Masharawi’s son?<br />
There are a number of possibilities.<br />
First of all, Israel deliberately launched a missile at a civilian house, intending to kill him and his family. That, as the Elder of Ziyon observes, is <a href="http://elderofziyon.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/follow-up-on-omar-mishrawis-death-and.html" rel="noreferrer">unlikely</a>:<br />
<blockquote>
The idea that Israel, which managed to kill less than one civilian for every 30 airstrikes in Gaza, targeted the house of a low-level BBC employee during the initial wave of attacks – while he wasn’t home – is simply not believable. Unless you are convinced, <em>ab initio</em>, of Israel’s monstrous nature, there are other explanations that fit the incident far better.</blockquote>
However, that still allows for the possibility that an Israeli missile went astray, or that the attack on the house was intentional, but resulted from mistaken information. That certainly could have happened.<br />
Nevertheless, there are two other possibilities which should be considered. The first is that Hamas or its allies launched a missile at Israel, but that it fell short and hit Jihad Masharawi’s house. That, quite possibly, is the cause of death of<a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2012/11/19/hamas-dead-baby-horror-stunts-get-free-pass-in-the-wests-press/" rel="noreferrer">Mahmoud Sadallah</a>, whose body was displayed to the world’s media, to be kissed by the Egyptian Prime Minister. Although it was widely claimed in the press that this child died in an Israeli strike, none appears to have taken place at the time of his death. By contrast, estimates of the percentage of the Hamas rockets which fall short and fall within Gaza range from between <a href="http://elderofziyon.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/how-many-gazans-are-killed-by-hamas.html" rel="noreferrer">15% and 40%</a>. Damage to homes in Gaza by missiles is particularly perilous, because a large number of homes have <a href="http://elderofziyon.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/how-did-baby-omar-mishrawi-die.html" rel="noreferrer">propane gas heaters</a>, and domestic generators. A missile or shrapnel hit can cause a secondary explosion. In any event, the Elder of Ziyon <a href="http://elderofziyon.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/daily-mirror-uk-silently-deletes.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter" rel="noreferrer">notes</a>, the Daily Mirror has now removed the news item which most prominently covered the story, but has not announced its reason for doing so, or considered the matter further.<br />
The final possibility is that the shrapnel which hit Jihad Masharawi’s house resulted from an explosion or a secondary explosion on one of the weapons caches and launching sites near his home.<br />
Which theory is correct? We can’t know for sure: at least not yet. Perhaps there will be an investigation in which facts will become apparent. Israel knows where it launched attacks. It may have intelligence which shows the sites of misfired Hamas etc. rockets. Their proximity to Jihad Masharawi’s house could be ascertained.<br />
Who is morally responsible for the deaths of civilians, where despite not being targeted, they die when Hamas shoots wonky rockets which fall short, or when Israeli missiles ignite weapons caches that are intended to be fired at Israeli cities? I can guarantee you that there are many who take the view that even in these circumstances, Israel and Israel alone should be held accountable.<br />
As <a href="http://bbcwatch.org/2012/11/25/bbcs-jon-donnison-displays-a-professional-and-ethical-conflict-of-interests/" rel="noreferrer">BBC Watch</a> has pointed out, as far as the BBC and it’s correspondent Jon Donnison are concerned, there is only one possibility: that for some reason Israel fired a missile into Jihad Masharawi’s house. This is how he puts it:<br />
<blockquote>
“Despite the evidence pointing towards an Israeli air-strike, some have suggested it might have been a misfired Hamas rocket. But at that time, so soon after the launch of Israel’s operation, Israel’s military says mortars had been launched from Gaza, but <strong>very few</strong> rockets. Mortar fire would not cause the fireball that appears to have engulfed Jihad’s house. Others say that the damage was not consistent with powerful Israeli attacks, but the BBC visited other bomb sites this week with very similar fire damage, where Israel acknowledged carrying out what it called “surgical strikes”. Like at Jihad’s house, there was very little structural damage, but the victims were brought out with massive and fatal burns.”</blockquote>
As BBC Watch points out, there is no basis for Donnison’s conviction that an Israeli airstrike hit Jihad Masharawi’s house. Donnison provides observations based upon what he believes to be similar patterns of fire damage. However, the pictures show merely a hole in a building and a fire, which may have been caused by an Israeli airstrike or by any of the other possibilities canvassed above, including one of the ‘very few’ rocket strikes which Donnison discounts. There’s no discussion, either, of the evidence of Jihad Masharawi that ’shrapnel’ – not a rocket – hit his house. That is at odds with Donnison’s belief that the attack looked like the aftermath of an Israel “surgical strike” with a missile. In any event, I don’t know whether an exploding Israeli missile would have left identifiable fragments, but certainly none have been produced.<br />
With limited data, Donnison can’t be sure: but it is very clear what he thinks.<br />
As well as expressing near-certainty that an Israeli strike killed Omar Masharawi, Our Own Correspondent also contained a graphic description of the state of his body and the natural and terrible agony of his father. I think that, having been told the horrific story of how Israel launched a missile into a BBC employee’s house, killing his son, and having heard about the impact of that missile on a tiny child’s face, most people would be unprepared to discuss the possibility that the death had resulted from some other chain of events.<br />
If Israel deliberately launched a missile into a civilian’s house, it should be condemned. If Israel did so, believing that the house was in fact occupied by a military target, then the BBC ought to investigate how it came to make such a terrible mistake. If Omar Masharawi died as a result of a misfired Palestinian rocket or mortar, then that should also be investigated and condemned. Were he to have died following an Israeli strike of a Fajr5 rocket site in Zeitoun, then that should at least be reported. The BBC should ask Hamas why it put a Fajr5 launching site in the middle of a civilian area. It could ask Israel the same question: and its answer would be that it knew that these rockets were being prepared for launch at Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.<br />
I expect that some effort will now be put into trying to find out precisely what happened. If Israel’s culpability is ascertained, that too will be reported and Israel is likely to express regret, which will be regarded as insincere by most partisans of the Palestinian cause. If further evidence of Hamas culpability emerges then, from past experience, that is likely not to be reported at all. Hamas will express no sorrow, because it does not in fact regret the deaths of Palestinian civilians, and because it knows that it will never be pressed on its siting of missiles and caches within civilian neighbourhoods. In arguments on the internet, and at public meetings, we will be told that Israel should not have responded to missile attacks at all, which are in fact incapable of doing any harm, and in any case deserve them because of the supposed ‘occupied’ nature of Gaza.<br />
As Norm <a href="http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2012/11/timetables-personal-and-historical.html" rel="noreferrer">observes</a>:<br />
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[F]or a wide swathe of left-liberal and ‘anti-imperialist’ opinion there is now no way Israel can conduct itself from which it will earn moral credit. It is irredeemably tainted in its origin. Conversely, and in the same quarter, there is nothing that Hamas or other representatives of the Palestinian people can do, no wrong or outrage they can commit, which will not be morally ‘cleaned up’ by the perception that these representatives are supposedly the pure vehicle of a struggle against injustice.</blockquote>
One of the reasons for this opinion is that much of the media prominently report the deaths of children when they can be attributed to Israel but, as the Daily Mirror’s quiet de-publishing of its story illustrates, have very little to say when the facts shift and the story becomes less certain.<br />
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Harry</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 7:57 pm</td></tr>
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I wonder if you’d write a cheap little essay, full of rampant speculation, if your son had just been blown to bits.<br />
Nah. I doubt it.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" rel="noreferrer">Alan A</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 8:00 pm</td></tr>
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The BBC were very happy to broadcast just such rampant speculation, when one of their employees son’s was killed.<br />
The certainty which underpins your comment, above, is premised upon your belief in the satanic nature of Israel and the angelic nature of Hamas. That’s because you have no basis to conclude that the other possibilities are not, in fact, correct.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 8:05 pm</td></tr>
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Harry – please explain exactly what is wrong with the post.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>MattZemille</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 8:26 pm</td></tr>
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Harrys right, why speculate, it was probably Israel. Don’t make a big issue out of it.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarka</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 8:27 pm</td></tr>
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Harry<br />So you’re saying that because the death of a child is a terrible thing, it is distasteful for anyone to queston the initial or common explanation for why it occurred???<br />Distraught parent and friends: Jones deliberately killed my child!<br />Coroner: I’m sorry, but that has yet to be determined.<br />Distraught parent and friends: You heartless, vicious bastard. Don’t you care that my child was killed? If you cared you’d agree that Jones deliberately killed him! Otherwise you are callously mocking our grief by calling our explanation into question…<br />Murmuring crowd: Yes Yes… Callous bastard. How would you like your child to be killed? You must be a friend of Jones!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>marvin</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 8:31 pm</td></tr>
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The BBC’s Middle Eastern correspondents, seem to be, without fail, biased towards the Palestinian positions. Barbara Plett of course famously crying over the death of Arafat (how is she still working for the beeb?), Jeremy Bowen, Jon Dennison, and a myraid of lower ranking and freelance reporters.<br />
Is there a BBC Middle Eastern correspondent that has even been accused of pro-Israel bias by anybody other than MediaLens?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>sackcloth and ashes</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 8:37 pm</td></tr>
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‘Harry’ has no response to this post, because he’s a nasty little mersey trout whose sole purpose in life is to troll.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>DocMartyn</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 8:41 pm</td></tr>
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“Harry<br />I wonder if you’d write a cheap little essay, full of rampant speculation, if your son had just been blown to bits”<br />
The baby quite clearly wasn’t blown to bits.<br />
Fact is we haven’t seen the body of Omar Masharawi unlike the vast majority of the dead children killed during the conflict, the body is warped in a shroud, my guess is that the body was burnt.<br />The home is burnt out, and not bombed;<br />
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2012/11/bbc1.jpg" rel="noreferrer">http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2012/11/bbc1.jpg</a><br />
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2012/11/bbc2.jpg" rel="noreferrer">http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2012/11/bbc2.jpg</a><br />
Could have been an IDF round, but there is no shrapnel and the doors are on their hinges, the shutter are on the windows and so not much of a blast.<br />
Could easy be a phosphorus mortar round, routinely fired into Israel, propellent from a missile, or even a secondary domestic fire caused by a nearby explosion.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>damon</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 8:44 pm</td></tr>
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There’s way to much detail and things that are unknowable here.<br />But since the OP writer seems to have a certain knowledge of weapons and their specifiactions, perhaps he could expand on how shells fired from ships out at sea can be used in a controlled and humane way in a place like Gaza And what there targets were or might have been. My thinking is that they wouldn’t be that accurate and would be unsuitable for an urban environment.<br />
This does seem a bit of a hopeless thread for HP <i>in my opinion</i> because I think that for quite a few people here Israel can do no wrong, even when the death toll was 1400 during Cast Lead. Everything will be spun and justified.<br />Not that Israel isn’t in an impossible situation, and only has this blunt instrument of dropping bombs on people as a way of dealing with its problems.<br />There were reports of ships seen loading in Iran in the last few days that could be in the process of resupplying Gaza with more missiles.<br />
Getting into the detail of types of bomb damage and injuries on bodies sounds too much like 9/11 truthers banging on about Tower Seven at Ground Zero.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Joe in Australia</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 8:56 pm</td></tr>
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One possibility that nobody has canvassed is that Masharawi’s house was deliberately targeted by Hamas.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Ohad</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 9:01 pm</td></tr>
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We all know that the truth doesn’t matter.<br />
News isn’t information, it’s “reality TV”. The MSM business model is to pander to a demographic that likes getting outraged esp. at Israel and at the same time pander to the militants on the ground who are often on their payroll.<br />
The internet seemed to provide the opportunity to receive and evaluate information without the MSM filter/spin. But most people don’t have the time or interest – so the MSM is more powerful than ever since it is now closely aligned with govt.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 9:18 pm</td></tr>
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‘damon:<br />Getting into the detail of types of bomb damage and injuries on bodies sounds too much like 9/11 truthers banging on about Tower Seven at Ground Zero.’<br />
Spoken like a true pedophile.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 9:18 pm</td></tr>
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Damon<br />“My thinking is that they (shells fired by navy) wouldn’t be that accurate and would be unsuitable for an urban environment.”<br />
Unsuitable? What would be your military recommendation for weapons to be deployed against persons firing rockets into your country from “an urban environment”? What would be “suitable”? Please give details as tthe IDF will be all agog for your advice.<br />
You’re not much of a military thinker, are you? I’ve asked you before what you would do in schematic situations I outlined and you never answered – just burbled evasively about how maybe, maybe, someone was about to arrange a truce…</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 9:20 pm</td></tr>
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ElderofZiyon had<a href="http://elderofziyon.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/how-did-baby-omar-mishrawi-die.html" rel="noreferrer"> an earlier post</a> about Omar Mishrawi’s death and the photo evidence of the damage done by the strike that killed him. He included commentary from an unnamed source (presumably an IDF officer or vet) about the nature of the damage and its possible source:<br />
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<i>I received an email from someone with serious military experience. Here is the analysis:<br />
First of all, Israel isn’t using incendiary weapons, and won’t, so any “mass of fire” that hits anyone is going to be a secondary effect from the original high-explosive effect, and will involve something like a propane container, chemical container, etc. Israeli bombs and air-to-surface missiles don’t produce masses of fire hitting people’s roofs.<br />
Second, if the “round” of an Israeli weapon had literally come through the roof where the hole is visible in the photo, there’d be no house to take pictures of now. Compare the photos of the Masharawi house with the photos of the wreckage of the Al-Dalu (Doula) house. Then compare the Masharawi photos with photos of the Israeli homes hit by Hamas rockets.<br />
This isn’t definitive, of course, and there are other things to consider, like whether Hamas rockets were flying at the time. [Which they most definitely were on the first day of the operation - EoZ].<br />
OK, now I’m looking at the second photo of damage. If the blast from an Israeli weapon had occurred inside this home, the wood on the windows would be entirely gone. No trace left. The walls wouldn’t be intact. Their top portions, at least, would be a pile of rubble around the base of the wall. The iron grilles on the windows would probably be lying on the ground somewhere.<br />
The story doesn’t hang together. An Israeli bomb could not have penetrated the roof of this structure, then exploded, and have left the structure looking as it does: charred on some surfaces, but still intact.</i><i>I note that a Hamas rocket could have done exactly this damage, including the projectile-through-the-roof feature. There are other conceivable scenarios in which secondary damage could have been done by an Israeli hit nearby, but in no case would it have been possible for an Israeli weapon to penetrate the roof as described, and then do nothing more than char the surfaces and rearrange the furniture.</i></blockquote>
We are all grieved by a child dying. On the other hand, it has been a real feature of the Hamas propaganda effort during this conflict to organize parades and photo opportunities of children displayed like so many trophies to rouse hatred and condemnation of Israel, and for the first time, mainstream media, including the Washington Post, the Telegraph as well as tabloids like the Sun and the Mirror have all run the dead baby pictures and presented them as the result of Israeli targeting.<br />
It was only subsequently that, following fishing by such bloggers as Elder of Ziyon and others that it became clear that at least one of the children must have been killed by a Hamas missile which had fallen short after launch. Some papers (like the Mirror) have withdrawn the sensationally outraged coverage and just deleted the page. Reuters acknowledged it had wrongly attributed the death of Mohammed Sadallah to Israeli strikes.<br />
But as <a href="http://adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada/2012/11/hamas-dead-baby-horror-stunts-get-free-pass-in-the-wests-press.html" rel="noreferrer">I wrote on my blog</a><a href="" rel="noreferrer">, you also have to face up to the extent to which these children’s bodies have been desecrated and used as propaganda props. Which brings us to the case of Jihad Misharawi’s use of his son’s body.</a><br />
<a href="" rel="noreferrer">What would have had to happen for the image of him grieving over his son to be photographed? It isn’t taken where he was killed. Instead, the wrapped corpse of the child has been taken to a place with a whiteboard carrying Arabic messages thanking volunteers. And there Misharawi poses in his grief. Why? Where is the rest of the family? The child had, according to Donnison’s account been killed and burnt up by the strike. So why bring him, by now presumably washed and clothed in a shroud to the place in the picture? It’s clearly not a mosque, and all the men surrounding him are of military age.</a><a href="" rel="noreferrer">Here’s </a><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-20336811" rel="noreferrer">a link to a BBC video of Misharawi</a> carrying the child and being interviewed–it’s not the location in the still photo. He clearly says his son was killed by shrapnel (seems inconsistent with the burned out image presented in Danahar’s report) and that it happened in Zeitoun, as in the transcript above, not the different area of Gaza City reported by Donnison. And it’s certainly not the area that the video is made in. He’s surrounded by young men who start shouting “Allah hu Akhbar” and some belligerent sounding chants before the video cuts out.<br />
Finally, from start to finish Jihad Misharawi is presented as a “BBC picture editor” and/or a BBC journalist. However, at no time did any of the BBC coverage clarify that for a local journalist to get accredited to report from Gaza, he must either be a member of Hamas, or at the very least someone who can be depended on only to report the Hamas line.<br />
At no point did anyone in any of the BBC reports (and everything we have on Jihad Misharawi appears to originate from a BBC source) ask if he or his family have connections with Hamas or one of the other jihadi terror groups. No one asked if there were any Hamas fighters in his vicinity or any Hamas targets nearby.<br />
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<i></i><br />
<i><a href="http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0901/06/acd.01.html" rel="noreferrer">As a senior CNN reporter said in January 2009</a>, this is the determinant of the news we see about Hamas on our screens and in our newspapers:<br />
And right now you could make a real case that the message that’s coming out is one that’s essentially controlled by people that are perhaps more partisan to the situation inside the Gaza Strip than a lot of international journalists.<br />
COOPER: Inside Gaza press control by Hamas is heavy-handed. There are few press freedoms inside Gaza, and Hamas controls who reports from there and where they can go.</i><i>While pictures of wounded children being are brought to hospital are clearly encouraged, we rarely see images of Hamas fighters or their rockets fired into Israel.</i></blockquote>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 9:21 pm</td></tr>
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<i>Getting into the detail of types of bomb damage and injuries on bodies sounds too much like 9/11 truthers banging on about Tower Seven at Ground Zero.</i><br />
Questioning Hamas’s version of events when Hamas has a history of lying about deaths of Gazans caused by its own errant rockets is not equivalent to questioning the fully-investigated events of 9/11.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>mettaculture</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 9:27 pm</td></tr>
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Harry I think I will name my sons, Armageddon, Thanatos, Berserkir, and Sheol, what do you think? Better than Ghandi, Proust, Wilfred and Chico surely?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>DocMartyn</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 10:03 pm</td></tr>
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Metta, what is wrong with traditional names, Throatslasher, Eyegouger, Heartstabber or Skullcrusher?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sharon</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 10:08 pm</td></tr>
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So we are expected to believe that Donnison is not only a BBC reporter, but also an expert on bomb damage. Usually a good reporter’s investigation would include the opinion of experts in the field and not just the spread of what is after all simply gossip.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 10:19 pm</td></tr>
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“Sharon<br />
So we are expected to believe that Donnison is not only a BBC reporter, but also an expert on bomb damage.”<br />
No you stupid bastard. We expect reporters to report what they know to be true, not to repeat as truth, what they have been told by HAMAS.<br />There is no evidence that this baby was killed by an IDF munition, other than HAMAS states it to be the case. I think that HAMAS are truthful as a Guardian editorial, but who knows, maybe the IDF did hit the BBC’s “Jihad’s” house.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>kreplach</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 10:34 pm</td></tr>
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<i>it was probably Israel</i><br />
Why would it matter, or make any difference if it was?<br />
Undoubtedly there are several Gazan deaths that resulted from Israel’s response to Gaza rockets.<br />
The point of the article is that civilians died because Hamas placed rockets and missiles almost in children’s bedrooms when they could have cited them in any open area. The point is that Hamas used human shields and this is a story of one of them.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Jimmy Glesga</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 10:36 pm</td></tr>
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Doc. What about bomber kebab with the trimmings of course. Strange name for a normal ! person, ‘Jihad’. Sounds like someone that wants a fight.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 10:38 pm</td></tr>
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<i>even when the death toll was 1400 during Cast Lead.</i><br />
Except as a memorial to the dead civilians amongst the 1400 does that mean anything useful or contribute to the debate? Also, how remarkably low the death toll this time.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Gene</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 10:46 pm</td></tr>
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<i>Strange name for a normal ! person, ‘Jihad’. Sounds like someone that wants a fight.</i><br />
You can’t help what your parents name you. And “jihad” can refer to non-violent struggles.<br />
One of the top officials of the Israeli trade union federation the Histadrut is named Jihad.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 10:53 pm</td></tr>
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<i></i><br />
<i></i><i>Metta, what is wrong with traditional names, Throatslasher, Eyegouger, Heartstabber or Skullcrusher?</i><br />
I kind of assumed they were M*o*r*g*y’s middle names.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Equus</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 10:53 pm</td></tr>
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Marvin,<br />
>>Is there a BBC Middle Eastern correspondent that has even been accused of pro-Israel bias by anybody other than MediaLens?>><br />
Historically, yes. CAABU, LMEC and similar organisations used to flog that horse all the time in the 1970s. One example would be the BBC’s resident correspondent in Jerusalem, Michael Elkins, who got targeted by what was then a fledgling pro-Palestinian lobby quite a bit. Believe it or not the Guardian was regarded by some as a hotbed of “Zionist propaganda” in the days when Eric Silver and Terence Prittie used to work there.<br />
All nonsense, of course, but so is much of the current round of denunciation and vilification.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada" rel="noreferrer">Judy</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 10:56 pm</td></tr>
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Another reason the number of civilians who died in Gaza is much higher than it is in Israel is that ordinary Israelis have to have shelters, either in their homes or ordinary ones. Gazans have none.<br />
The Hamas regime chooses to provide itself with Fajr5 and Grad rockets (not cheap) instead of asking <a href="http://www.timesofisrael.com/iran-to-increase-financial-military-aid-for-gazan-terrorist-groups-hamas-founder-says/" rel="noreferrer">donor nations like Iran and Qatar</a>to provide its people with shelters.<br />
However, Hamas has spent huge sums on <a href="http://israelmatzav.blogspot.co.uk/2009/08/surprise-hamas-diverting-cement-to.html" rel="noreferrer">bunkers</a>– for its top brass and its missiles….</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>will defens</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 10:56 pm</td></tr>
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I’m reading about Eritrean refugees..<br />
Hams are scum and only scum would support them.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Read some history</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 25 November 2012, 11:57 pm</td></tr>
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There is another possibility — no child was killed.<br />
Look at the four pictures in the Daily Mail. There are many inconsistencies, apart from the father’s change of jumper.<br />
<a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2233248/Anguish-BBC-journalist-cradles-body-baby-son-died-Israeli-rocket-attack-Gaza.html" rel="noreferrer">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2233248/Anguish-BBC-journalist-cradles-body-baby-son-died-Israeli-rocket-attack-Gaza.html</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Think of England</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 November 2012, 12:11 am</td></tr>
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The name must be an error in translation. It should be “Peaceful Inner Struggle” Masharawi.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Paul M</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 November 2012, 12:14 am</td></tr>
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<i>“No you stupid bastard….”</i><br />
Doc,<br />
Take some deep breaths. I think Sharon was making the same point as you.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>censored by you</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 November 2012, 12:15 am</td></tr>
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“I wonder if you’d write a cheap little essay, full of rampant speculation, if your son had just been blown to bits.”<br />Harry, if I was called Jihad I’d blow anyone to bits if it harmed civilisation.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 November 2012, 12:15 am</td></tr>
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The damage reminds me of the ambulance during the war against the Hezbollah where you could see the hole in the car’s roof and some burnt out areas inside. The EoZ was also very good about discussing how such damage was unlikely due to missile, which would have obliterated the ambulance. Probably the same thing here. Anyway, it’s a war.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada" rel="noreferrer">Judy</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 November 2012, 12:36 am</td></tr>
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Off-topic but still on the subject of imagery designed to provoke hatred of Israel–<br />
The Guardian readers’ editor has acknowledged that Bell’s cartoon of Netanyahu as the puppet-master of Cameron and Hague <a href="http://bit.ly/WqXQ83" rel="noreferrer">used anti-semitic imagery </a>which should not have been used.<br />
Bell is totally unrepentant and you have to read the convoluted and self-serving logic he uses in the readers’ editor article to deny that the cartoon was anti-semitic to appreciate just how twisted and hate-filled he is.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>mick O</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 November 2012, 12:39 am</td></tr>
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Very shortly these propaganda battles regarding casualties in the current conflict will be a minor distraction once the fallout from the Arafat exhumation gets going.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lynne T</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 November 2012, 1:06 am</td></tr>
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What makes it unlikely that death and destruction was delivered by the IDF is that the Israelis aren’t completely lacking in media savvy themselves, and in this operation, they have been particularly careful, showing the lessons learned from Operation Cast Lead. The problem is that the media is either still happy to be fooled because they can’t lose by leading with a story that makes Israel look bad (ie: the ridiculous life being given to the “Arafat was poisoned” story after the probability of the Israelis dosing him with polonium didn’t withstand the smell test) or to take Hamas’s stories whole cloth because of the Beeb’s anti-Israel bias.<br />
One story from the last Hamas-Israel war the status of which I’d like to know is that of the deaths of Dr. Abueish’s three daughters and niece. Abueish, the author of “I shall not hate” now living in Toronto, was pursuing a law suit against Israel for refusing to apologize for their deaths. As Dr. Abueish travelled regularly between Gaza and Israel to treat infertile Jewish couples it has always struck me more likely that Hamas operatives probably used the opportunity to draw fire toward the doctor’s house to show him what they thought of his collaboration with the enemy.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lynne T</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 November 2012, 1:12 am</td></tr>
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mick O<br />26 November 2012, 12:39 am<br />
One has to wonder what sort of chicanery is going to be employed here, and what sort of subject matter experts are going to be called upon to carry out the examination and testing — some leftovers from the 9/11 truthers?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Paul M</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 November 2012, 1:35 am</td></tr>
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Anything that keeps Arafat from resting in a quiet grave has my support.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Phomesy</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 November 2012, 1:35 am</td></tr>
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This is the same Jon Donnison who tweeted a photo of a dead Syrian child being used as Hamas propaganda right?<br />
Now, anyone can make such a mistake, but,’what I don’t get is: why on earth would Donnison bother retweeting a generic “dead child murdered by Israelis” photo, when he’d had such a brutal, graphic, personal experience of such wanton slaughter, from the very start of the conflict?<br />
I just don’t get it. You’ve seen a colleague’s child eviscerated; you’ve got vivid anecdotal evidence. Yet, rather than report this at the time, you hold it back, meanwhile tweeting other photos of dead children which turn out to be from an entirely different conflict, and were used to clearly dupe you into spreading propaganda…<br />
Really really odd..</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Joe</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 November 2012, 1:56 am</td></tr>
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To an extent, I agree with Harry’s comment at the top of the thread: It is extremely morbid that we are discussing “who” is responsible for the deaths of civilians in general and this specific child. But what Harry neglects to consider is that the conversation is initiated and necessitated by the actions and reporting of the Hamas propeganda unit and the BBC. Making these deaths an indictment against Israel, it’s actions and it’s motives, requires a forensic analysis of the<i>facts</i> to demonstrate the veracity or otherwise of the claim. It is the propaganda arm of Hamas and the BBC that have made this accusation against Israel, but what Harry is saying is that Israel may not question the substance of the accusation as they try to defend it.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Jimmy Glesga</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 November 2012, 2:14 am</td></tr>
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Gene. Henceforth Jihad will be known as peace and the Lord sayeth there will be no dispute about this matter and suicide bombers changed their attire and everyone lived in peace. And Gene had three sensible children that lived long I do hope.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>mettaculture</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 November 2012, 2:31 am</td></tr>
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Gene no you can’t help what your father calls you, but it doesn’t mean that it is not indicative of other aspects of your child rearing .<br />
I have known a Hitler and a Stalin. Hitler was an Indonesian member of the Batak tribe who were Christianised by German missionaries when Hitler was a terribly popular name. He wasn’t Hitlerian he was a very sweet teacher but giggled when he recounted how his grandfather had been a cannibal who ate his own Father when he became frail according to according to custom and he was the son of a chief whose father was very pro Hitler.<br />
The Stalin I knew was the son of a mercurial Brazilian trade Union leader and he was a nasty bastard Stalinist who came to a sticky end.<br />
I always wanted to invite them both to dinner with printed invites but they were on opposite sides of the Earth.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://notapplicable/" rel="noreferrer">mynameisnotimportant</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 November 2012, 2:35 am</td></tr>
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[I am trying to post anonymously here because I don't have any email addresses which do not contain my full name (because I have no reason to need them), but I do not wish to encourage those who view cyberstalking of someone with a potentially opposing view as reasonable behaviour.]<br />
I stumbled across this website because of the comments made by the bbc correspondent about bloggers challenging his account of the ‘likely’ cause of the childs death. I was curious to find out if there were conflicting accounts elsewhere.<br />
Having read what was here – I wished (if you don’t mind too much) too make a comment or two before I gradually retreat. I am not here because I have any particular axe to grind with anybody- and I am making no presumption about this site or those who comment here regularly. (Particularly as I haven’t seen enough to do so).<br />
On the BBC account -<br />
[I have worked in the defence industry and munitions in particular for a long time so I have some familiarity with at least part of the multitude of such objects (or varying reliability of performance) we have devised as a species which could cause such an event.]<br />
If you really think that a BBC radio 4 ‘from our own correspondent’ programme journalist would invent a dead baby belonging to a colleague you are living on another planet and unable to be reached with merely human technology such as the internet. (The diversity and quality of this programme is remarkable- check it out!).<br />
Whilst there are many possibilities as to how an apartment could be penetrated by an object and then burn ferociously in a warzone- the fact that it was not flattened is irrelevant as to determining whether this was an IDF strike. Missiles come in all sizes and purposes- as do other types of munitions. The IDF has more experience than most of having to carry out targeted strikes in urban areas where it may wish to have a smaller guided payload weapons to limit collateral damage- such as the those carried on a drone. Likewise a shell -(which does not contain high explosive such as a smoke round) could arrive unguided to the wrong location, penetrate a weak structure then burn with considerable ferocity without being described as an actual incendiary device. (I haven’t seen comment on the use of actual incendiary weapons this time however during cast lead WP shells were used to achieve a similar affect on the UN warehouse in Gaza at least- hence it featuring heavily in their report on that conflict.)<br />
On the recent situation in Gaza -<br />
Is it callously irresponsible that Hamas operates rockets or missiles sites close to civilians thereby attracting israeli fire onto those civilians? – certainly.<br />
However – the gaza strip is a very small area under very close surveillance. Hamas intends to make its weapons – and (at least some of) its fighters difficult to track and spot in peacetime and in war- and wishes to enable such operations to be carried out quickly and with as little opportunity to prevent or observe them being carried out. As a result it is inevitable that this will mean that the weapons move closer to the urban areas where suspicious activity would be harder to detect.<br />
Furthermore Hamas’s command and control probably becomes very rudimentary very quickly in wartime and is intended not to be reliant on any technology which can be jammed, overheard, de-crypted or fail due to long term power blackouts. This may end up degrading to the level of neighbourhood runners.<br />
The effectiveness of the israeli blockade on even simple materials such as concrete and metal would make preparation of the sort of sophistocated tunnel complexes used by hezbollah to hide and move weapons and fighters in south lebanon impossible. (and given the level of surveillance probably impossible to conceal – and therefore pointless unless incredibly strongly constructed….as the israeli firepower is vast and gaza relatively tiny in area).<br />
The more rural areas are presumed by both sides to be a completely free fire zone. With so little cover which will not be levelled if deemed to be even slightly relevant by the IDF – the desire to remain in the fight makes it again inevitable that Hamas will move into the built up area for pragmatic reasons again. (There is very little point in calling this cowardice. Hamas regards itself as the ’state’ in gaza and as such has a responsibility to preserve its ability to function as a military force in the event that a ground invasion occurs- where it would be far more likely to be able to exact casualties on the IDF.)<br />
Incidently such a blockade also makes the construction of shelters for the civilian populace a complete pipe dream.<br />
Whether you despise Hamas’s ideology or not – they are the de-facto government of gaza and have been democratically elected in the past.<br />
It is utterly illogical to pretend this is not a war between states (in hte eyes of the combatants at least) whether the military imbalance makes the nature of the conflict into a bizarre alternate model. ie where being completely slaughtered (along with those you are supposed to have protected) becomes a ‘victory’ simply through your organisation continuing to exist in any form.<br />
Also given the ongoing economic crisis in gaza during the blockade there are unfortunately hundreds of priorities which could come before shelters.<br />
On the conflict in general-<br />
I have lived long enough to have seen israel spurn enormous quantities of admiration, respect and goodwill across the world. I grew up in a world amazed by the bravery and the skill of the IDF.<br />
This change in attitude is not due to infantile siding with the underdog. It is not due to anyone forgetting the lesson of the holocaust. It is down to talking about peace whilst continuously building settlements outwith the 67 borders. It is also about exacting collective punishment on the palestinian population as a group for their refusal to meekly accept a ridiculously miserable life in a few fragments of the country which their predecessors lived in. (Sometimes within sight of their former homes and land within the renamed towns and cities of Israel. Their cultural memory of the country which existed in those places prior to Israel is just as inconvenient as they are.)<br />
Those who are friends of israel should understand that whilst the continuation of low level conflict alongside settlement building in the West Bank may appear a successful model to the israeli state (as the facts on the ground -within their area of control- continue to move in their favour), this is merely making it impossible for them to have any eventual overture for peace be remotely credible.<br />
If the Palestinian people chose extremists like Hamas -that reflects on the duplicitous way that moderate leaders have been co-opted and then made ridiculous by israeli violations of previous agreements.<br />
If zionism places the rights of jews above non jews, and this is inherent in the nature of the legal framework of the current israeli state then what palestinian leader could agree a one or two state solution which guarantees all or part of the palestinian people being left as second class citizens in perpituity?<br />
In the name of security laws discriminating citizens by race and religion which are incompatible with the view israel holds of its own place as an honourary ‘western’ democracy are in effect.<br />
The changes demanded to make the israeli state not a ‘zionist’ state (and meet the criteria of co-existence with Hamas and other in a two or one state settlement) are merely a recalibration back to the basic level of equal rights that are a pre-requisite for the democratic state israel proclaims itself to be.<br />
Any such nonsense of the palestinian’s being in the grip of a death cult and seeking leadership who will lead them through fire until israel in any form is wiped off the map is nothing but drivel.<br />
Israel now posseses the power to make peace on incredibly favourable terms.<br />
Surely this must be better than perpetual war?<br />
Otherwise what is the endpoint-<br />
War in the west until the last gazan has been driven to the slums of cairo – and hamas are still raiding and rocketing from the sinai whilst becoming egypt’s hezbollah?<br />
Or squeezing the life out of the west bank until jordan (already majority palestinian demographically) is racked by civil war due to a further influx of palestinians and ceases being neutral to become a hostile palestinian majority governed neighbour?<br />
Surely there must be a better future than a victory (at best) requiring longer and bigger fences and israeli’s still unable to travel in the entire middle east – and at worst further sporadic bouts of conflicts with a choice of hostile neighbours.<br />
The unconditional financial assistance from the USA underpins the israel economy, its military prowess, its research and development – releases Israel’s own tax revenue from other purposes to fund settlement (including duplicating infrastructure and the security walls).<br />It also affords the sponsoring of new immigrants with little or no connections to Israel who are willing to serve as settler militia to protect their new and better life. This sort of shameless policy of expansion by any means via hired economic migrants makes a fool of any palestinian politician who even suggests Israel is still interested in peace.<br />
If the continuation of such generous assistance by the US was made conditional on a genuine pursuit of peace – this conflict could end very quickly.<br />
As the deal which could be made now is far in advance of that which previous generations of israeli’s could ever have dreamed of- it is not unreasonable for a friend of israel to intervene in such a way.<br />
Especially in return for its unceasing genorosity and the considerable difficulty caused to a hundred other foreign policy concerns ham-strung as the price of unequivocal support of Israel.<br />
The flipside to this is this eventually a politician in america may effectively galvanise the american taxpayer to the inconsistency of massive aid to Israel versus the industrial regeneration, public services, improved military equipment, infrastructure which they are being told is unaffordable.<br />
The worst thing anyone supportive of israel could do is work on the assumption that a lasting and workable peace is irrelevant as the american financial aid will be affordable in perpetuity- thereby leaving the risk to israeli security that such support may be withdrawn without suitable adjustment at a time not of israel’s choosing.<br />
Anyhoo…that’s my tuppence worth.<br />
Best wishes for the future.<br />
No name bloke.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Jimmy Glesga</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 November 2012, 2:45 am</td></tr>
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You are right important like the rest of us. Unless you want to be more important. But you said your piece.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Brian from Toronto</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 November 2012, 2:49 am</td></tr>
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I know a Jihad in Toronto. He’s known as Jim, but of course his passport has his proper name, and he loves to travel. You can imagine the hassle he gets crossing the border.</div>
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levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-89411239081851014122012-09-28T11:46:00.001+01:002012-09-28T11:46:10.197+01:00Bibi's bombshell blows up in his face<img src="http://972mag.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/noa-angel.jpg" /><br />
<br />
(Noa Angel)
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<br />levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-73432208423505305502012-09-10T15:54:00.001+01:002012-09-10T15:54:45.448+01:00Racism at HP on and on<br />
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<a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2012/09/09/met-officers-for-racist-comments/" rel="noreferrer" style="color: #444444; margin: 5px 0px 15px; text-decoration: none;" title="Met officers sacked for racist comments">Met officers sacked for racist comments</a></h2>
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<span class="author" style="font-weight: bold;">Sarah AB</span>, September 9th 2012, 3:28 pm</div>
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Although I think speech should be free – people need to be aware that what they say may have consequences. It could be argued that people can slip into racist patterns of thought or speech, but are not truly racist themselves. (This distinction is often made with reference to antisemitism.) One may wince at certain words – ‘coloured’ for example – while recognizing (if there are no further indicators of a problem) that the speaker’s intentions are quite probably benign.</div>
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But it’s a different matter when people repeatedly and unashamedly make comments which reflect disdain and dislike for those of another race. Such views may make it impossible for people to carry out their jobs properly, as <a href="http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/met-police-race-row-women-1314723" rel="noreferrer" style="color: #fa4949;">was the case </a>with Special Constable Rosanna Garofalo and WPC Joanna Sugda who were recorded making offensive comments about black people, repeatedly comparing them to monkeys. Earlier in the year another officer was sacked for telling a takeaway manager to ‘go back to your fucking country’. Bizarrely, Garofalo insisted that ‘I am not a racist and still do not believe the conversation we had to have any racist connotations.’</div>
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<span class="smallallcaps bold" style="font-size: 10px; font-weight: 700; text-transform: uppercase;">KEYWORDS:</span> <a href="http://hurryupharry.org/category/racism/" rel="noreferrer" style="color: #fa4949;" title="View all posts in Racism">Racism</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>censored by you</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 3:50 pm</td></tr>
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Police officers are in a special position, & like teachers should not express racist ideas, or put them into practice as part of their job.<br />End of.<br />I often reflect on how, in many cases, “racism”, an unknown crime in my childhood, is often at the very top of the list of crimes<br />today.<br />Police & social services, rarely prosecute murders/”honour killings”<br />when they can persuade themselves that the victim has gone back to stay with an unidentified aunt in Pakistan.<br />Similarly, the rape, prostitution, & possible murder of poor,<br />white girls has been ignored & underinvestigated for decades.<br />The reason is the fear of being described as “racist” for enforcing laws that apply to all other British citizens.<br />It follows that in many cases, human lives are seen as less important than an official being described as racist.<br />Those whom the gods wish to destroy etc etc.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 3:57 pm</td></tr>
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<i>Although I think speech should be free – people need to be aware that what they say may have consequences.</i></div>
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I am afraid this is confused thinking. If speech is free, then it must not attract penalties.<br />A better wording is: Speech is free within wide limits, those limits being placed where it is likely to cause physical harm (shouting ‘Fire!’ in a crowded theatre) or personal fear or feelings of personal physical insecurity.<br />Those limits mean, of course, that racist abuse does not fall within the definition of free speech.<br />Criticising a religion or any political position does not cause such harm etc, and should be free in a civilised society.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 4:00 pm</td></tr>
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censored by you:<br />absolutely. Professionally prosecuting crimes committed by members of a community X can never be ‘racist’. This was invented purely to pander to members of a particular client ‘community’, to the detriment of the rule oflaw in this country, and has caused huge harm to, well, yes, ‘community cohesion’ (sorry, I really am).</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 4:03 pm</td></tr>
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I think if they had been in a different line of work it wouldn’t be an issue, or such an issue. And I posted a while back in defence of this woman, who lost her job due to EDL links.</div>
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<a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2012/01/18/howard-hodgkin-breaks-with-edl-assistant/" rel="noreferrer" style="color: #fa4949;">http://hurryupharry.org/2012/01/18/howard-hodgkin-breaks-with-edl-assistant/</a></div>
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Some things need not be criminal but are not easily compatible with certain jobs. Although I have just read something claiming that what Rowan Laxton said may not have been as bad as first thought, I would much rather he had been penalised at work than through the courts.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Jeremy Clarke</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 4:07 pm</td></tr>
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I must profess my ignorance here and admit that I was unaware until recently that ‘coloured’ is verboten. Okay, it is a word I seldom use or used – and certainly not in a pejorative sense – but I only realised it was offensive when Alan Hansen was publicly hauled over the coals for using it.</div>
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Am I right in assuming the C word is off-limits because of its association with apartheid?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>DocMartyn</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 4:16 pm</td></tr>
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They should sack all the white ones</div>
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<b>Of course all white people are racist</b></div>
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As a black man, I admit I am bound to suffer from prejudices of my own. <b>I cannot be racist</b></div>
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<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2002/jul/03/raceintheuk.comment" rel="noreferrer" style="color: #fa4949;">http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2002/jul/03/raceintheuk.comment</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 4:17 pm</td></tr>
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Maybe Jeremy – I agree it’s all seems slightly arbitrary and confusing. It does genuinely grate on me, having said that.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nick (in South Africa)</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 4:23 pm</td></tr>
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Sarah</div>
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Some things need not be criminal but are not easily compatible with certain jobs. Although I have just read something claiming that what Rowan Laxton said may not have been as bad as first thought, I would much rather he had been penalised at work than through the courts.<div style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; padding: 0px;">
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I agree, this sort of thing should be a work discipline thing.</div>
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Comparing people ‘of colour’ to monkeys is not something that should be acceptable within the expected code of conduct of a police officer; even one of the plastic ’special constables’. It is however not something that should concern the criminal justice system.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>andraste</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 4:30 pm</td></tr>
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I’m old enough to remember when “coloured” was the POLITE term to use, as opposed the the truly offensive N- and D- words</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nick (in South Africa)</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 4:37 pm</td></tr>
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Am I right in assuming the C word is off-limits because of its association with apartheid?</div>
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I didn’t know it is off limits in the UK either!</div>
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It does seem as if the terms for people of colour has a sort of reverse half life, starting off benign and becoming radioactive over time.</div>
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The word is still used in SA without rancour – and by coloureds themselves. Here it specifically means people of racially mixed admixture, distinct from the other major race groups – blacks whites and indians.</div>
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There are something like 5 million coloureds in SA, they mostly speak Afrikaans as their first language and form a majority in the Cape – no doubt one reason the Western Cape is the non ANC province! They may be sub-divided into various sub groups. Indeed, most SA Muslims ancestry hails back to imported Malay slaves.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>andrew adams</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 5:01 pm</td></tr>
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Sarah AB,</div>
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Slightly OT, but as you have posted a couple of times on freedom of speech recently you may find this of interest.</div>
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<a href="http://www.bpas.org/bpasknowledge.php?year=2012&npage=0&page=81&news=537" rel="noreferrer" style="color: #fa4949;">http://www.bpas.org/bpasknowledge.php?year=2012&npage=0&page=81&news=537</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 5:04 pm</td></tr>
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<i>Garofalo insisted that ‘I am not a racist and still do not believe the conversation we had to have any racist connotations.</i></div>
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She’s wrong about “not having racist connotations” but can she claim not to be a racist?</div>
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I honestly believe that people can have racist thoughts in their head, can say things about different races to each other and yet put their life on the line to save a member of the race they abuse in private.</div>
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I know people who have racial prejudices in their stereotypical beliefs that shows itself in conversation but not in actual prejudice in face-to-face.</div>
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Jews will tell you that they have worked with people who have made stereotypical remarks about Jews openly in conversation but the same work colleague has absolutely no prejudice against you in the workplace. You won’t be held back for promotion or be the first out of the door for the sack.</div>
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We know that the Black community will use the “N” word amongst themselves. Are they racist?</div>
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If speaking about racial characteristics and using stereotypical, denigrating phrases about other races becomes racism that is actionable in law then a huge number of people are in trouble.<br />Of course racism needs to be stamped out but its a tricky path to try and negotiate.</div>
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I note a story today of a ginger haired woman taking offence that a bank clerk said “Aren’t you pleased your daughter doesn’t have ginger hair”. The woman wants an apology for “racism” and as much dosh she can wrangle out of the bank.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Jeremy Clarke</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 5:20 pm</td></tr>
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“Maybe Jeremy – I agree it’s all seems slightly arbitrary and confusing.”</div>
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Thank you, Sarah. That is very reassuring. I was somewhat bemused by the Hansen story when it broke; I felt like a cultural ignoramus and a bit of a fogey and while I may be both, I am pretty sure you are neither.</div>
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In the case of these two Specials, I wouldn’t particularly want to know them, but I am a little troubled that a private conversation should wind up in the public domain and the national newspapers.</div>
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I know plenty of people – including members of my own family – who are less-than-discreet in their views but I wouldn’t want them to be exposed in this way. Yes, these two are Met officers and are held to high standards but, even so, they are entitled to privacy.</div>
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The officers in question should have been disciplined and re-trained rather than exposed to national scrutiny and effectively stigmatised for life.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Adrian Morgan</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 5:28 pm</td></tr>
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<i>We know that the Black community will use the “N” word amongst themselves. Are they racist?</i></div>
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Those that do use the term are being pig-ignorant and, despite claims to be “reappropriating” the term, I just see them perpetuating a term that is better consigned to history.</div>
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It is just a “hip” way, as I see it from the outside, to be racist in an inverted way, i.e. “We are n****s, because we still live in a slaveowner culture that either does not help us to integrate, or that we don’t want to integrate into, unless it is strictly on our own terms.” Which sort of sticks a spanner into the integration machine, if those who need to be integrated and made to feel a part of one bigger society insist on having the mentality that continues the oppression, only by oppressing themselves.</div>
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I regard with similar contempt the efforts of “radical” gay people to talk about “queer politics” and other such “isn’t victimhood and self-hatred chic,now we have taken the language of the oppressor and use it to identify ourselves?” bullcrap.</div>
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Mind you, I also have contempt for the cuddly touchy-feely all-inclusive term “LGBT”, considering how much animosity there has traditionally been between trannies and gay men, Hackney 1980s political lesbians who (in many cases, but certainly not in the majority) openly hated all men, including gay men, and the mistrust and resentments between bisexuals and gay men.</div>
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So maybe I am part of the problem, because I cannot abide separatism, but I also abhor artificially created PC notions of forced inclusivity….</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Jonny</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 5:38 pm</td></tr>
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‘Police & social services, rarely prosecute murders/”honour killings”…<br />Similarly, the rape, prostitution, & possible murder of poor,<br />white girls has been ignored & underinvestigated for decades.’</div>
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Absolute hogwash.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 5:40 pm</td></tr>
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andrew – thanks – that’s very interesting – will try to post later.</div>
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Jeremy – maybe your solution is better – I am not sure. Perhaps one needs to know more about the whole context, although I agree that it is tough to lose your job over a private conversation. But it would also be tough to find yourself being black, and having to deal with one of those women in their professional capacity …</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Daisy D</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 5:43 pm</td></tr>
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“DocMartyn<br />9 September 2012, 4:16 pm<br />They should sack all the white ones<br />Of course all white people are racist<br />As a black man, I admit I am bound to suffer from prejudices of my own. I cannot be racist<br /><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2002/jul/03/raceintheuk.comment" rel="noreferrer" style="color: #fa4949;">http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2002/jul/03/raceintheuk.comment</a>”</div>
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When I read this one I laughed so hard I almost weed.</div>
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Break it down.</div>
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All (ethnic group) are (single defining characteristic.)</div>
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Such self awareness!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>nodrog</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 6:13 pm</td></tr>
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Gosh, it’s all jolly difficult, isn’t it? I mean, just last night on the moving television pictures, that Jonathan Thingy had that Cheryl Whatnot on. Her new man is the splendid Will.I.Am who did so welli in the Olympic Torch race, and I said – quite innocently I assure you – That girl, I said, That girl really likes black men; but not black women. Well, The looks I got!<br />I rather lamely spluttered, Well, it’s true, isn’t it , but this cut no ice, I assure you. I didn’t have the temerity to ask the assembled company if they knew how someone with a criminal conviction for racially aggravated assault occasioning actual bodily harm can move so freely in and out of the USA when that country is famously keen on excluding criminals. Oh, well, them as lives longest will see most, as my Aunty Lila used to say. Cheers!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Flaming Fairy</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 6:14 pm</td></tr>
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Ah Joseph Harker, professional race stirrer and whiner who I believe wrote an article about not being able to get a Mothers Day card with a black woman on it…for his white mother.</div>
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Also famous round FF Towers for whining at length about the removal of child benefit from the likes of Guardian editors and other wealthy middle class people in an article in which he whimpered “it costs my children £125 to go to school in term time” – the sums showed this amounted to 50p per kid per day.</div>
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The man is a joke.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 6:25 pm</td></tr>
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Sorry – it was “£240 per term” – just found the article</div>
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<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/oct/04/osborne-child-benfit-war-families?INTCMP=SRCH" rel="noreferrer" style="color: #fa4949;">http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/oct/04/osborne-child-benfit-war-families?INTCMP=SRCH</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Banned Old Guy</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 6:27 pm</td></tr>
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What about referring to a “typical white person” as racist on that basis? Should such a person be judged unfit for public office, or at least for a law enforcement supervisor position?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarka</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 6:30 pm</td></tr>
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A police officer making racist remarks on the job especially to members of the public certainly deserves firing.</div>
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The remarks by these two women do seem pretty nasty but I’m divided about use of stuff from private conversations as a basis for sackings. Probably it was bad enough to count against them, but I don’t like the thought of a work culture of sneaking on people for private remarks, recording chats etc…It’s likely to get round to much more marginal remarks than in these cases.</div>
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Anyway, if that’s the situation now the career of my favourite police detective in modern British tec fiction would clearly be for the chop, immediately, and with respect to thousands of racist remarks in a long career. I refer to Reg Hill’s Inspector Dalziel.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Flaming Fairy</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 6:44 pm</td></tr>
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I agree with Sarka on this one – I find the use of what people assumed were private chats in this way to be faintly sinister. And I think people can say racist things without necessarily being racist i.e. in the context of a private joke. Not saying that this is what these people were doing, of course.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>daggi</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 7:13 pm</td></tr>
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Just two quick points – the two police in question – they hardly sound very British themselves. I wonder if they were ever told to “fuck off back to their own fucking country”?</div>
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Otherwise “Special Constables” aren’t proper police officers anyway, are they? At least a decade ago it used to mean “do-gooding busybody volunteer” who gets a free uniform and the right to go around playing at being a policeman/woman, with a large number of the rights that real officers have, bizarrely. Like “police support officers” but with a baton and the right to arrest.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>jimmy glesga</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 7:15 pm</td></tr>
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We need a book called ‘things not to say’ probably better published by lefties and liberals as most of them talk shite. Then we can have expert guidance and toe their line. Things like ‘dock that nigger a days pay for laying down on the job’ should be banned!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 7:20 pm</td></tr>
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<blockquote style="background-color: #fcfbf9; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; border-color: rgb(244, 241, 233) rgb(230, 224, 207) rgb(222, 213, 190); border-style: double; border-width: 1px; font-size: 11px; margin-left: 0em; margin-right: 0.5em; padding-left: 1.5em; padding-right: 1.5em;">
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We need a book called ‘things not to say’</div>
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and subtitled “The collected thoughts of jimmy glesga”.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>daggi</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 7:36 pm</td></tr>
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if i were a programmer i would device a firefox addon to make all of mr. glesga’s “thoughts” vanish from my computer screen. it wouldn’t be difficult.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>stuartm</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 7:57 pm</td></tr>
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True Story. I work in the US (but am english by birth). I do a lot of computer programming where there is a long tradition of using ‘color’ to mean adding additional properties to something (look up ‘colored pointers’ ) where these additional properties are signified by colors.</div>
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Recently I and my boss had this great idea of having ‘Colored Blah’ (Blah is some kind of class whose type is not relevant). We introduced this in a couple of meetings – the concept was fine but a couple of people took us aside afterwards and said the name needed to be changed. Other people (in the US) were wincing whenever we used said ‘Colored Blah’. Rather than face endless conversations having to explain what we meant we changed the name to ‘Annotated Blah’.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>violet</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 8:07 pm</td></tr>
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Hey, banned old guy, how about resisting the urge to indulge in whataboutery?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Ronbo2571</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 8:41 pm</td></tr>
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Why should we wince at the term coloured?</div>
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If it was good enough for Martin Luther King,it should be an acceptable term to use.</div>
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It’s now considered less than polite nowadays and we are now told by the guardians of our morals that black is more acceptable.I remember when black was unacceptable.</div>
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So rather than tie ourselves up in knots, common sense tells us that the context in which something is said and it’s intent is more important.</div>
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Who knows,perhaps in the future the N word may be an acceptable expression,heaven forbid.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Banned Old Guy</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 8:42 pm</td></tr>
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violet;</div>
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I don’t think that’s whataboutery. It bears directly on what is racist speech, and whether it should disqualify someone for public office. I am interested in whether this is a general principle or is dependent on the race and/or political orientation of the people involved. That is, the principle “it’s a different matter when people repeatedly and unashamedly make comments which reflect disdain and dislike for those of another race”.</div>
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stuartm;</div>
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I had better watch myself because as a code slinger myself I use “color” in precisely the same way.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 9:05 pm</td></tr>
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Absolutely, Jimmy, well said.</div>
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I agree that private conversations should not be used this way.</div>
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Welcome to Big Brother Britain – this is a government’s wet dream.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 9:09 pm</td></tr>
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Banned Old Guy,</div>
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No whataboutery whatsoever. It seems to be regarded as OK to slag off white people (especially if working class: they are the scum of the earth, after all, to Guardian-reading so-called ‘liberals’ (LOL), all the more so if they dare vote other than Labour), in a way that would land you in hot water if non-whites were involved.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Alec</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 9:12 pm</td></tr>
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Never mind “coloured”, are we allowed to say “WPc”?</div>
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~alec</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>jimmy glesga</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 9:17 pm</td></tr>
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Koyla. That is a good idea you could do a foreward for me like ‘aye fuck aff jimmy’.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nevermind</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 9:18 pm</td></tr>
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<i>Welcome to Big Brother Britain – this is a government’s wet dream.</i></div>
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A leftist’s wet dream.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 9:32 pm</td></tr>
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jimmy glesga</div>
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I don’t really want to talk with your because … well, do you realise that almost everything you say here is just one racist moan after another, and that the only people here who regularly agree with you are more verbose and more aggressive apostles of the same hateful message?</div>
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I’m not saying you should be banned, but like daggi said, I wish there was an option in my browser to switch you off.</div>
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Of course, if you found something to say that was not a racist moan, I might switch you back on again. On a trial basis.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>nodrog</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 9 September 2012, 9:47 pm</td></tr>
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Sacked. Benefits withdrawn. Children banned from school.Shunned by neighbours. Switched off from all browsers. Thus perish all racists.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>jimmy glesga</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 10 September 2012, 12:35 am</td></tr>
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Koyla. Actually I do not realise what is in your heid. And I am not a moaner. I am not looking for agreement just putting over an opinion and a bit of humour to offend people.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Flaming Fairy</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 10 September 2012, 7:42 am</td></tr>
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“The N word” – ugh. Just say it: “nigger”. It’s disgusting and foul, but the prissy tiptoeing around it as if it were a grenade is just silly. It makes it seem like it’s The Worst Word Ever when in fact it’s just a word with only the power we choose to give it and also a word used liberally in certain kinds of music.</div>
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And yes, I know all the arguments about why black people can use it and white people can’t, but not to use it even in quoted speech is ridiculous.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>damon</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 10 September 2012, 10:14 am</td></tr>
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Using the term ”coloured” in Britain has nothing to do with South Africa and what are called Coloureds there.<br />In Britain it was closer to ”people of colour”, although it wasn’t that either.</div>
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Now a leading spokesman in black politics suggests that maybe it’s time to leave ”black” behind too, and refer instead to <i>people of African origin.</i><br /><a href="http://www.obv.org.uk/news-blogs/it-time-ditch-colour-black-our-true-heritage-african" rel="noreferrer" style="color: #fa4949;">http://www.obv.org.uk/news-blogs/it-time-ditch-colour-black-our-true-heritage-african</a></div>
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That’s Simon Woolley; who has stated in the past that in his opinion, a majority of non-black people in Britain, think that black people are inferior.<br />Which if was a widely held view amongst black people, would be quite problematic.<br />It may be true though.</div>
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As for the wpcs in this case: they got caught, but it was terribly sneaky. Britain has now become totally PC as far as things said about race is concerned. A BNP councillor just got convicted for ”racist blogging”.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 10 September 2012, 11:55 am</td></tr>
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There is something daft about a situation whereby the terms used to describe groups that are subject to disparagement keep on becoming contaminated with connotations of bigotry and have to be replaced every few years.</div>
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How about we adopt a system of dated terminology, for example this year the legitimate term for “black” people would be “black-12″, and next year “black-13″. That way we could all stay ahead of the bigotry-connotation tsunami that is alway lapping at our heels.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>nodrog</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 10 September 2012, 12:12 pm</td></tr>
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Ponios sounds nice. Persons of Non – Indiginous Origin.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Greg</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 10 September 2012, 1:05 pm</td></tr>
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I struggle to understand how some words are offensive, and others aren’t, despite meaning the same thing. I guess the history of the word might have some influence. But why, say, is cunt a horrendous swear word but vagina isn’t? What makes Paki offensive, when it’s just a contraction of Pakistani? Ditto Yid (cf Yiddish). Clearly I’m too much of a literalist.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Flaming Fairy</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 10 September 2012, 1:07 pm</td></tr>
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<i>people of African origin.</i></div>
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That’s the entire human race then</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Ronbo2571</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 10 September 2012, 1:36 pm</td></tr>
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Nice one Jimmy G.</div>
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I like your pithy contributions,I’ve yet to see you write anything racist.</div>
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Maybe Kolya is playng a race card and you are then required to shut up.</div>
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He has been rather nasty to you on more than one occassion.</div>
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I think he needs a hug from you. x</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 10 September 2012, 1:45 pm</td></tr>
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Jimmy, pay no attention to the ever pompous and self-important (and sometimes racist) Kolya. You provide good value, if when I disagree with you.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 10 September 2012, 1:47 pm</td></tr>
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I think he needs a hug from you. x</div>
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Thanks for caring. But no thanks.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Trofim</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 10 September 2012, 2:36 pm</td></tr>
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What’s disturbing is to what extent even relatively sophisticated people like Sarah AB display in their writing their acceptance of the principle, postulate, propostion what have you, which essentially comes down to “Racism is the worst prejudice in the world” or “Racism trumps all other ism’s in its awfulness. There are numerous parameters along which humans differ, which are not susceptible to change: age, sex, attractiveness, height, blood group, personality, your parents’ class and so on. They all in theory qualify for the formation of -isms.<br />It’s simply that the supposed iconic dreadfulness of racism has been assiduously cultivated by those who have the power and motivation to do so, aided and abetted by inertia, cowardice, ignorance, stupidity, herd instinct, inability to think critically, wish for a quiet life and various other properties commonplace in most of the populace – including me.<br />The amount of suffering, disadvantage and unhappiness caused by “racism” is miniscule compared to the colossal amount due, for example, to ageism. Putting the age of 50 into a job application guarantees rejection. Putting black for your ethnic origin implies no such guarantee. You can say numerous pejorative things about old people without even being noticed. You won’t get a post on Harry’s Place or any other leftish-inclined blogs about ageism, that’s for sure.<br />This belief in the dreadful pre-eminence of racism, is chiefly a generational thing, secondary to indoctrination in school and by the modern mass media.</div>
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levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-17889912769272946622012-04-29T14:51:00.000+01:002012-05-02T17:36:51.924+01:00HP - Ceci n’est pas la Justice – Labour’s Andy Slaughter on Rockets<br />
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<a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2012/04/29/ceci-nest-pas-la-justice-labours-andy-slaughter-on-rockets/" rel="bookmark" style="color: #444444; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 5px; text-decoration: none;" title="Ceci n’est pas la Justice – Labour’s Andy Slaughter on Rockets">Ceci n’est pas la Justice – Labour’s Andy Slaughter on Rockets</a></h2>
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<span class="author" style="font-weight: bold;">Joseph W</span>, April 29th 2012, 8:00 am</div>
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Here is Andy Slaughter, Labour’s choice for Justice Minister, talking about a debate in Parliament (6:19)</div>
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[The] debate that took place over questions, was over the issue of rockets being fired from Gaza into southern Israel. And <strong>sadly, 4 or 5 MPs</strong> – and this is true, MPs get both sides – who wished to put forward the Israeli perspective on this, <strong>made that a <span style="text-decoration: underline;">main issue</span></strong>. Had I been called I would have said this (*<em>smiles</em><em>*</em>) -</div>
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Since rocket attacks from Gaza begun in 2004, 21 people have been killed in Israel, and yes of course we regret that. 4594 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza. That figure is already out of date because 2 more were killed yesterday. And I don’t think you need to say very much more than that. <strong>The extraordinary disaparity in quality of arms </strong>which is not reflective – and I’m afraid, some of my colleagues was guilty of this, as the British media and <strong>the Israeli propaganda machine,</strong> that the whole impact in talking about rocket attacks in Gaza, in talking about alleged offenses by Palestinian side, is to <strong>mask that disparity</strong>, is to in some way <strong>obfuscate what is happening</strong>, so that some <strong>people who are uninformed</strong> but <strong>who would be sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, <strong>are not allowed to do so</strong></strong>.”"</div>
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I think it is a no-brainer, as to whose side you are on.”</div>
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“The Israeli propaganda machine tries to vilify the PSC… That is a sign of weakness.”</div>
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The Shadow Justice Minister concludes:</div>
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“<strong>We must work every day to ensure that justice is achieved</strong>.”</div>
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But this is not really justice.</div>
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I know that many if not most Labour activists are appalled at this kind of rhetoric, but they are losing a battle that they have to win.</div>
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Labour ought to be brought back on course, and there are those in the Labour party working within the party mechanism to take Labour away from extreme or sectarian politics.</div>
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However, at the same time, there are many working to render the Labour party to be precisely the opposite – extreme and sectarian.</div>
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I have described the Labour party as <a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2012/04/28/response-to-jeremy-corbyn-proves-that-the-labour-party-is-institutionally-racist/" style="color: #fa4949;">institutionally racist</a>, because it is not able to deal with clear concerns about naked antisemitism, in a satisfactory manner. I fully understand that people disagree with the term sincerely.</div>
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All this could change if people of good will, are able to influence Labour decision-making, and convince Ed Miliband to take action against the likes of Andy Slaughter and Jeremy “<a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2012/04/24/jeremy-corbyn-and-the-blood-libel-sheikh/" style="color: #fa4949;">Jewish influence</a>” Corbyn.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://mystical-politics.blogspot.com/" style="color: #fa4949;">Rebecca</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 8:13 am</td></tr>
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One wonders how he would react if rockets had been fired for the last ten years from, say, Wales upon London. Would he have been so sanguine at the thought that “only” 21 Londoners had been killed, and because of the overwhelming firepower possessed by London, would he have refrained from calling for a military response and said that the people of London would just have to put up with this minor irritant?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>cityca</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 8:16 am</td></tr>
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By that reasoning, the UK and US surely killed many more German civilians than they killed Brits or Americans during WWII – were we on the wrong side too?</div>
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And this is the man Labour want as Justice Minister? As appropriate as Ed Balls for Chancellor or Milipede for Premier.</div>
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A shadow cabinet composed of political pygmies (not unlike the Tories, unfortunately).</div>
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Don’t we have any proper statesmanlike politicos any more?</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 8:18 am</td></tr>
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Rebecca<br />
Exactly.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Clap Hammer</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 8:29 am</td></tr>
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One has to suppose that it would be different if many more Israelis/Jews could have been murdered by rocket fire to even up the score a bit more.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 8:30 am</td></tr>
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I am utterly disgusted by the fact that the Labour Party is home to such an array of Hamas-friendly, clerical fascist appeasers; however, I do not think this makes the Party institutionally racist – any more than the Tory Party of the ’70s and early ’80s, with a right wing often too closely linked to the world fascist network, made the Conservatives, in fact, a fascist party.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>John p Reid</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 8:44 am</td></tr>
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Kent police had A black boss in the early 2000′#s yet it was Institutionally racist, so the idea that ALobur can’[t be instituionally racist as Ed Miliband is jewish is ridiculous</div>
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Trevor Philips twice has said Labour is institutionally racist, Once in 1999 when he said “Laobur automatically assumes Black people vote laobur, and Once in 2009 when He said” that the make up of LAobur emans int could naver have A black leader, regarding the former On labourlist last month there was A Article that said Labour automatically Assumes BAME vote labour, to the point of false scare mongering saying UKIP are racist / teh Tires are still teh party of Enoch powell, LAbours had the Stehpen lawrence report,,, etc, so vote labour or else</div>
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There was also A couple of Black councillors In havering who said in 2009 that There were Back institutions in Labour that were Institutionally anti white racist.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>DSD</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 8:52 am</td></tr>
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In many ways, this is far better evidence of Labour’s institutional anti-semitism than your recent piece, Joseph. This is the classic ‘holding to a different standard’ stance delivered by a bona fide Shadow Minister rather than an easily dismissed fringe nutball like Corbyn, whereby Jews should just take it and continue to put up with school playgrounds containing bomb shelters from necessity. Whereby terrorism and the response to it becomes a matter of dry mathematics (leaving aside the well-documented habit of Palestinians and their supporters to pretend that strapping young Hamas lads with AKs are civilians) and Israel is actually condemned for the disparity in casualty figures because it actually attempts to protect its people from harm despite the best efforts of its genocidal opponents.</div>
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If my next door neighbours repeatedly express their desire to kill my family and I and lob hand grenades over the fence every time we nip out to the garden, I reserve the right to use a rocket launcher to bring down their fucking house around their ears, should I happen to have one. If it was that smug bastard’s family in the firing line, I’m quite sure he wouldn’t be standing around waiting for the first one of his kids to end up in the morgue before responding in ‘proportionate’ manner.</div>
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I just cannot see how anyone of good conscience can apologise for Labour anymore. But then, I’m a rightwinger who has never voted Labour, so I don’t have any ideological baggage to shed before gritting my teeth and making the break that many of you are clearly steeling yourselves to make. It’s fascinating to watch…</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 9:02 am</td></tr>
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ooh – I am part of the ‘Israeli propaganda machine’.</div>
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<a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2011/11/08/the-psc-hosts-atzmon/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://hurryupharry.org/2011/11/08/the-psc-hosts-atzmon/</a></div>
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Very depressing Joseph. Thanks.</div>
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Abu Faris – I completely agree that it’s daft to describe the Tories as fascist, but the term ‘institutionally racist’, which sounds so harsh, can describe, I think, simply a failure to deal with problems, rather than malice, or imply that most people in the party are racist, or indifferent to racism.</div>
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Sorry – I’m still uncomfortable with that phrase ‘Jewish influence’ in quote marks – it allows people to say he never used it, and I think that detracts from the important and substantive points you make, Joseph.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>DCook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 9:08 am</td></tr>
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I guess, in hindsight, we should all have been supporting the IRA since their level of weaponry versus the British Army is negligible.</div>
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I have always said, and will continue to say, that telling us about the relative death toll of Israelis compared to Palestinians is irrelevant. The death toll for Palestinians could be zero if they hadn’t resorted to terrorism.</div>
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What reason for Hamas sending missiles, rockets and mortars attacking civilians does Slaughter support? Surely, any support for Hamas is a support for a terrorist organisation which is illegal in the UK.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>DCook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 9:09 am</td></tr>
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I guess, in hindsight, we should all have been supporting the IRA since their level of weaponry versus the British Army is negligible.</div>
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I have always said, and will continue to say, that telling us about the relative death toll of Israelis compared to Palestinians is irrelevant. The death toll for Palestinians could be zero if they hadn’t resorted to terrorism.</div>
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What reason for Hamas sending missiles, rockets and mortars attacking civilians does Slaughter support? Surely, any support for Hamas is a support for a terrorist organisation which is illegal in the UK.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>DCook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 9:16 am</td></tr>
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<i>in talking about alleged offenses by Palestinian side</i></div>
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Oh! Who fired those rockets and missiles then? I see, crack Mossad units dressed-up as Palestinians went into Gaza and pretended to be Gaza militants. Damn clever those Jews, eh Slaughter?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>will defens</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 9:18 am</td></tr>
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Socialists, everyone should be armed with the same weapons, it’s only fair.</div>
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The NUS all suited and grown up and now in government, scary.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>will defens</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 9:34 am</td></tr>
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<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/29/co-op-israel-west-bank-boycott" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/29/co-op-israel-west-bank-boycott</a></div>
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CO-OP getting in on the act, brilliant.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 9:43 am</td></tr>
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Sarah AB</div>
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I think that is a very fair rebuttal. I am concerned, however, that the expression “institutionally racism” is being stretched past its precise meaning. It strikes me that this precise meaning is being eroded by its sometimes too lax application. It also strikes me that such a powerful accusation is undermined by such lax application.</div>
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The Labour Party clearly has a nest of fifth columnists, appeasers and assorted opportunists that it needs to clear from its ranks. Support for, appeasement of, cheerleading for anti-Semites, misogynists, homophobes and religious fascists is clearly and indubitably unacceptable – and should be in breach of the spirit and letter of the rules and regulations that govern the membership of the Labour Party. All this is true. However, to condemn an entire Party, and thus every single one of its members, as racist is to step too far.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>thomask</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 9:43 am</td></tr>
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To say,that the Labour party is “institutionally racist”, is perhaps<br />
too categorical.<br />
But it is definately infested with red fascist nastiness.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 9:44 am</td></tr>
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I also agree with thomask.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>test</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 9:45 am</td></tr>
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Slaughter’s a London Labour MP, and they have elections in London on Thursday where their Islamist-supporting, anti-semitic candidate can win by sucking up hard enough to the Islamist vote, and carrying enough of the rest through a load of BS on cutting fares. So there you have it.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>george</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 9:56 am</td></tr>
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“Labour ought to be brought back on course”. I’m currently in London and the level of stupidity exhibited by my fellow Jews is appalling, and demonstrated by this post. The shadow Justice minister is clearly anti Israeli, probably an anti semite, yet we must elect his party. I can just hear a German Jew in the 1930’s saying yes Hitler is a bad man, but we need to get Germany moving again, so let’s elect his party.</div>
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Are you all out your minds?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:03 am</td></tr>
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george</div>
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There have always been elements of the Labour Party, in that they have membership of the Party, who are beyond the pale. Yet, there were and are also members of the Party who fought anti-Semitism and fascism all down the line. I object to those comrades being tarred with the same brush.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>martinbuber</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:05 am</td></tr>
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Andy Slaughter doesn’t mention Jews: all he does is attack Israeli policy. And yet he gets called a racist here and people say that Ed Miliband should take action against him!</div>
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You people routinely deny that you say that criticism of Israel is necessarily antisemitic. Yet what better example of that is there than this post and the comments following it.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>j.r.</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:09 am</td></tr>
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I don’t think labour will want to rid itself of these people. There are too many Guardian and Independent readers out there who expect their labour MPs to parrot the Israel-hating and antisemitic propaganda that they have been fed. Don’t underestimate the number of letters labour MPs get from grolies moaning about Israel and teh joos.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://thylacosmilus.blogpost.com/" style="color: #fa4949;">JuliaM</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:10 am</td></tr>
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<i>“I think it is a no-brainer, as to whose side you are on.”</i></div>
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Easy to see where the people of no brain sit, certainly.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>MArk2</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:11 am</td></tr>
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I am concerned, however, that the expression “institutionally racism” is being stretched past its precise meaning. It strikes me that this precise meaning is being eroded by its sometimes too lax application……..</div>
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as is “ethnic cleansing”, “Fascist”, “right wing” and occasionally “left wing” too – to mean anything people don’t like – esecially on HP, “Zionist”(not – usually – on HP) and several ohers. There is a price to be paid for devaluing language – or to put it another way “crying wolf”.</div>
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Sarah is right as usual.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>j.r.</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:12 am</td></tr>
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martinbuber<br />
The piece does not describe this statement by Slaughter as antisemitic.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>will defens</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:13 am</td></tr>
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If the comrades hang with comrades who hang with Islamic Nick Griffins, they will be tarred with the same brush.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Jack</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:15 am</td></tr>
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With any luck, the Labour Party will <b>NEVER </b>govern Britain again.</div>
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I say this as a lifelong Labour voter.</div>
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They are, I hope, electoral garbage.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>MArk2</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:18 am</td></tr>
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This:</div>
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“I can just hear a German Jew in the 1930’s saying yes Hitler is a bad man, but we need to get Germany moving again, so let’s elect his party”</div>
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is daft. Any eveidnce that any German Jews said that. Many Labour supporting Jews – two prominent ones (Alan Sugar and Jonathan Freedland) as well as small fry like me have gone public and said they are not supporting Livngstone.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:20 am</td></tr>
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will defens</div>
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Go away. You clearly have an axe to grind; and – as clearly – know nothing of the Labour Party.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:21 am</td></tr>
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MArk2</div>
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Cannot agree more with you. Well said.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>martinbuber</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:25 am</td></tr>
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<i>The piece does not describe this statement by Slaughter as antisemitic.</i></div>
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Lots of the comments do. The post itself calls for “Ed Miliband to take action against the likes of Andy Slaughter” and says that this would help allay concerns about “institutional racism” concerning antisemitism. Why would it do this, unless the suggestion is that Slaughter is antisemitic?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Alec</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:28 am</td></tr>
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Agreed with MArk2 on both comments.</div>
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Not agreed with Martin Luther. The real Buber would not have approved.</div>
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~alec</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.oyvagoy.com/" style="color: #fa4949;">OyVaGoy</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:28 am</td></tr>
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‘All this could change if people of good will, are able to influence Labour decision-making, and convince Ed Miliband to take action against the likes of Andy Slaughter and Jeremy “Jewish influence” Corbyn.’</div>
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Thanks for this post. Any Slaughter is quite a fruitcake on this issue.</div>
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Joseph, I share your overall stance on anti-Israel bigotry of these two figures. Did Jeremy Corbyn actually directly say the words “Jewish influence” that you quote him as saying? If so, can we have a link?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Flaming Fairy</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:30 am</td></tr>
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Labour busy preparing for another long spell in the political wilderness again, I see.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.oyvagoy.com/" style="color: #fa4949;">OyVaGoy</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:30 am</td></tr>
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PS</div>
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Slaughter says: “Had I been called I would have said this…”</div>
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Reminiscent of David Brent of The Office, who in his pieces to camera often said: “Were you to ask me…” and then some sort of personal question he wished someone would ask him.</div>
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The words of men who wish they weren’t as insignificant as they are.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:40 am</td></tr>
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Thanks Abu F and MArk2 – I think, WRT Martin’s point, that this is really problematic, and elides concerns about antisemitism with Israel advocacy, and also implies that all Israel advocacy comes from Israelis.</div>
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“The Israeli propaganda machine tries to vilify the PSC… That is a sign of weakness.”</div>
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Even the PSC has been a bit worried about elements in the PSC.</div>
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<a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2012/01/22/holocaust-denier%E2%80%99s-appeal-fails-to-impress-the-psc/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://hurryupharry.org/2012/01/22/holocaust-denier%E2%80%99s-appeal-fails-to-impress-the-psc/</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.oyvagoy.com/" style="color: #fa4949;">OyVaGoy</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:42 am</td></tr>
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Joseph, I just checked the original video of the Corbyn press conference. I can’t see Tayyab Ali or Jeremy Corbyn say the words “Jewish influence”.</div>
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Did *anyone* say these words you keep quoting?</div>
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(I’m no supporter of either man.)</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>martinbuber</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:44 am</td></tr>
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You know Sarah, I think that if some crazed post appeared here accusing Slaughter of committing the “blood libel” and I commented saying that this was totally nuts and based on no evidence at all, you’d surely find a way of taking the middle ground, fault on both sides and though you think it was going “a bit far” you could see why someone might say that.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>will defens</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:51 am</td></tr>
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Abu, were all have an axe to grind, that’s why people are here.<br />
As for Labour, I use to be a member until I realised it would sell little kiddies to get into power. It’s only principle is to paint it’s opponents as nasty. When they lose that ability they will never have power.</div>
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Now we watch as the Labour party and the left will use sectarian politics to gain power.</div>
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WE ALL KNOW ED WILL DO NOTHING.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:56 am</td></tr>
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Well Martin – we could invert your rhetoric and suggest that, if someone from the LP called for genocide, you’d say it was just a storm in a teacup.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Barry Meislin</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 11:08 am</td></tr>
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Justice?<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIDZ7Jpdqg" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIDZ7Jpdqg</a></div>
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Clearly, the Honourable Mr. Slaughter has gone too far. His total lack of understanding—amounting to gross insensitivity—regarding the mores, goals and aspirations of the Palestinian people has crossed all lines of common sense and common decency.</div>
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The insults of this unrepentant racist must not go unchallenged. In fact, he must be prevented from continuing to villify, disparage and misrepresent the valiant Palestinian people in their never-ending battle to kill and be killed—until Victory—and be forced, for decency’s sake, to retire from his position forthwith.</div>
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The Labour Party has been warned.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 11:33 am</td></tr>
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will defens</div>
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The “problem” with a mass party of the working class is that it embraces all the thoughts of that “class”: including all its vile loathings and hatreds. It is a space where such issues should be combated and strived against. The issue becomes more than acute when elected officers of the Party start to stand up for the vilest views when they should not.</div>
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My view is that one should not abandon the Party that stood up for democratic socialism, against both Stalinist totalitarianism and fascist hate…</div>
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Call me simple; but never, ever call me anything but a socialist. When I die, bury me under the Red Flag.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Joseph W</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 11:45 am</td></tr>
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OVG, no he did not state those exact words, no.</div>
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However his words amounted to these, so I think it is an appropriate nickname for him.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 11:47 am</td></tr>
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<i>OVG, no he did not state those exact words, no.</i></div>
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Oh, I see. How exactly may an entire party be labelled as institutionally racist, when – in point of fact – you have absolutely no evidence for the same?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 11:49 am</td></tr>
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And then – to put a cap on it – you *admit as much*?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 11:50 am</td></tr>
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I am not unsympathetic with your position, Joseph W; but I think you need to stop slinging mud.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 12:02 pm</td></tr>
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On my initial reading of Joseph W’s earlier piece about the Labour Party being institutionally racist, I agreed with him 100%. And I still agree completely with the concerns he raises, and applaud his public challenge to the Labour Party to clean up its act.</div>
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But the specific charge of <i>institutional racism</i> left me with a slightly uncomfortable feeling, which I’ve been trying to understand. I think part of my problem is that I’ve never liked the term, ever since I first became aware of it in the context of the Macpherson report. I think it tends to obfuscate the actual locus of culpability for an unjust policy. It simultaneously exculpates every member of an organisation individually, while inculpating them all collectively. It invites us to view the problem as a perpetrator-less injustice.</div>
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I’m not suggesting this concept has no validity. To illustrate its possible usefulness, perhaps one can draw an analogy with a company being found guilty of corporate manslaughter. But the latter concept is characterised by endemic negligence, rather than by any individual or collective agency willing the unjust outcome, either consciously or otherwise. So any attribution of culpability is greatly diluted by the absence of evil intent.</div>
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By contrast, as we’ve seen on the earlier thread and here, for many people the term <i>institutional racism</i> carries the much stronger connotation of an entire organisation being morally corrupt.</div>
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So we end up with these two conflicting interpretations: that nobody’s to blame, and that everybody’s to blame. It seems to me that neither is a useful way of analysing the problems within the Labour Party.</div>
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For those reasons I’m inclined to back away from calling the Labour Party institutionally racist. But I sure wish it would do something about the non-institutional racists in its midst!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 12:04 pm</td></tr>
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Excellent comment, Kolya!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 12:08 pm</td></tr>
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Going for a Cairo pub lunch with the kids. Laters, mecs.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>will defens</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 12:10 pm</td></tr>
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Socialism is just another dumb belief system.</div>
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When Labours opponents look nice Labour will not exist. Ken, Jeremy and many others are doing a sterling job. Keep up the good work Ed.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Joe in Australia</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 12:12 pm</td></tr>
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Rocket attacks from Gaza began much earlier than 2004; I have no idea why Mr Slaughter chose that year. In any event, he is apparently comparing all Palestinian deaths that can be attributed to conflict (even, e.g., someone killed while actually firing a rocket) with the number of Israelis killed by Gazan rocket attacks against the civilian population of Israel. It doesn’t include Israeli soldiers; it doesn’t include Israeli civilians killed by other sorts of terror attacks; it doesn’t even include Israelis killed by Palestinian rocket attacks from outside Gaza.</div>
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This is as deceitful an argument as could be imagined and I am astonished that a creature like this should be a candidate for any ministry, let alone Justice.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 12:23 pm</td></tr>
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With both kolya’s latest comment in mind and the one he made back at 12.02 – I think another issue is that it’s not simply the LP which is to blame – somehow the problems like Corbyn wanting to platform share with Salah (I leave to one side the question of whether or not he should have been allowed in, as one might deplore his views but support him in that respect I guess) don’t seem to gain traction in the media. They are not pounced on in the same way, say, Ken Clarke’s comments about rape are. At least – that is my impression.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Blackprince</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 12:33 pm</td></tr>
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I would interpret What Andy Slaughter really meant, despite his qualification, is that Hamas and other Gazan freedom fighters haven’t killed enough Jews. And I used to be a Member of the Labour Party; never again.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Shmoo-El</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 12:33 pm</td></tr>
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<i>..the…concept is characterised by endemic negligence, rather than by any individual or collective agency willing the unjust outcome, either consciously or otherwise. So any attribution of culpability is greatly diluted by the absence of evil intent. By contrast, as we’ve seen on the earlier thread and here, for many people the term institutional racism carries the much stronger connotation of an entire organisation being morally corrupt.</i></div>
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I disagree. The connotation is that the entire organization is **morally responsible** not corrupt per se. That’s a big difference. How could anyone ever prove that an entire organization is morally corrupt in terms of implicit racism? As I argued earlier, an organization can be a black box and still be regarded as institutionally racist if it consistently promotes (outputs) racism. Ben’s comments were insincere in my opinion…Labour is not merely ignoring its cranks…it is promoting them. (Although ignoring them is a problem too.) And like the corporation in your example above, it does not need evil motive to be regarded as infected in this manner. The corporation’s motive is profit. The party’s motive is votes. If either systemically commits unjust acts in pursuit of its goals one can reasonably argue collective responsibility. Especially if the problem is as systematically covered up and apologized for as it seems to be in this case. (Or show me a single prominent member of Labour engaging in public hand-wringing over this issue to prove me wrong. This is an empirical question in some respects, so if people disagree with Joseph’s position please provide evidence supporting your own position, as Joseph has.)</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Shmoo-El</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 12:48 pm</td></tr>
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To further qualify my challenge:</div>
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Providing evidence of pro-Israel or pro-Jewish support within Labour is not evidence. Non-racism is (or should be) the default. This is merely the “but I have Jewish friends” defense that every implicit racist makes at some point.</div>
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Evidence must consist of evidence of anti-racism directed at members of the Labour party who play with racist tropes. An accumulation of such evidence would suggest a healthy, anti-racist organization not infected by institutional racism.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 1:07 pm</td></tr>
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Like Abu Faris I am uncomfortable with the expression “institutional racism” in this context. Insofar as I understand the expression it conveys three related ideas – all defining a “racism” more subterranean and/or indirect than overt racism of sentiment.</div>
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1) Without their being any detectible “racist” or otherwise discriminatory sentiments or explicit policies in the staff of an institution, the practices of the institution effectively (secondarily) discriminate against a group. Here a very simple example might be a height rule for policemen! (Asians are not as likely to to be tall enough).</div>
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2) There is institutional racism when an institution operates on certain unconscious rather than conscious racist assumptions. Here the racism is hidden (even from actors) rather than a secondary result of procedures/rules. So, in the police where this started as a concept, it would include tending to pick on blacks, or take black complaints less seriously in some automatic way that doesn’t notice itself.</div>
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and 3) I suppose an institution by history and function might to have a tendency to a racist ethos (overt or covert), even though that is not the primary point of the institution: army? police? London gentlemen’s club?</div>
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In all cases the use of the term “ïnstitutional” to prefix a prejudice has been motivated by the theory that there is more to racism than just the overtly racist sentiments of individuals. This is why it so gets the backs up of the “anti-pc” brigade, who frequently point out (not always wrongly) how easily it becomes a way of imputing racism to organisations and groups in the absence of any solid evidence of racism as ordinarily understood! Not enough blacks at Oxbridge? Not enough Muslims in the police? Well, the only explanation becomes “ïnstitutional racism”, deployed too often just as an authoritative sounding expression meaning – at bottom – nothing more sophisticated than that most of the persons in the organisations are racists proper…</div>
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On the other hand, most of us would agree that racism and other forms of discriminatory prejudice do go beyond individual intentional racist sentiments and acts. It’s not stupid to look for institutional racism so long as you define it carefully and don’t just fling it around in anger.</div>
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The Labour Party? On this showing?<br />
No – Like Abu I don’t see much justification for considering it to be institutionally racist (here antisemitic)…It doesn’t structurally discriminate against Jews, obviously! It has no established ethos of snobbery against Jews (unlike the Tories in some eras).<br />
And it is a political party, and so ABOUT finding and pushing through certain ideological views -(unlike the police, or Oxbridge), with the result that if its policy or what it tolerates in its members’s pronouncement may be criticised for having racist implications, dragging the word “institutional” into it seems kinda obfuscatory to me.<br />
I mean – it would be eccentric to call the BNP “ïnstitutionally racist” – when “ideologically racist” would be more accurate and helpful…</div>
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So -sorry to make such heavy weather of this – but The Labour Party’s rather disturbing tolerance of objectively if not consciously racist attitudes over IPal/Jews strike me as ideological rather than institutional in nature. And to be fair to the Labour Party, it is not yet clear that the ideological rot has extended far enough to qualify as a rot so uniform and extensive as to affect the entire party and policing of views within it (e.g. Jewish or other persons with pro-zionist views being systematically passed over for selections/promotions etc…)</div>
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So let’s keep a grip on our terminology here…Ideological dry rot is quite bad enough: Slaughter, obviously, has a smelly case of it, and alas the Labour Party leadership seems too often to have an impaired sense of smell.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>DSD</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 1:10 pm</td></tr>
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Slightly offtopic question for those of you like Blackprince who have actually made the ‘never Labour again’ break, but out of curiosity where would/do your votes go instead? Some of the Tory core is slipping away to UKIP now, but given that most of the Left feels so betrayed by the Lib Dems, where do those votes go instead of Labour, if you don’t mind me asking?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarka</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 1:15 pm</td></tr>
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Actually, rereading my riff on institutional racism I realise that the b) definition might be stretched to fit…but in fact I have general reservations about eliding “unconscious racism” with “ïnstitutional racism” unless the “unconscious racism” is quite distinctive to the traditions of the institution concerned.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Disillusioned Lurker</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 1:18 pm</td></tr>
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When did Slaughter become this strange obsessive re Israel? This is the same person, remember, who was much feted as a “Blairite” leader of Hammersmith/Fulham council, and was (pretty much) imposed by the leadership as the party’s candidate in the 1997 Uxbridge by-election, against the wishes of the local party, who wanted to stick with the left-winger they had in the GE.</div>
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Most of the Labour party probably isn’t aware that he has turned into a bit of a nutter.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>DocMartyn</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 1:41 pm</td></tr>
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For one moment ignore the ethnicity of the conflict that Slaughter is pontificating about.<br />
The firing of unguided rockets and mortars into civilian areas is a direct breach of the Geneva Conventions</div>
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“Article 51.-Protection of the civilian population</div>
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1. The civilian population and individual civilians shall enjoy general protection against dangers arising from military operations. To give effect to this protection, the following rules, which are additional to other applicable rules of international law, shall be observed in all circumstances.</div>
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2. The civilian population as such, as well as individual civilians, shall not be the object of attack. Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited.</div>
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3. Civilians shall enjoy the protection afforded by this Section, unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities.</div>
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4. Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. Indiscriminate attacks are:</div>
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( a ) Those which are not directed at a specific military objective;</div>
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( b ) Those which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective; or</div>
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( c ) Those which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by this Protocol;</div>
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and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.</div>
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5. Among others, the following types of attacks are to be considered as indiscriminate:</div>
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( a ) An attack by bombardment by any methods or means which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects; and</div>
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( b ) An attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.</div>
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6. Attacks against the civilian population or civilians by way of reprisals are prohibited. ”</div>
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Furthermore, the use of civilians to shield combatants during attacks, by siting launch sites amongst ones own people, is illegal under the Fourth Geneva Convention.</div>
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“4. In the conduct of military operations at sea or in the air, each Party to the conflict shall, in conformity with its rights and duties under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, take all reasonable precautions to avoid losses of civilian lives and damage to civilian objects.</div>
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5. No provision of this Article may be construed as authorizing any attacks against the civilian population, civilians or civilian objects.</div>
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Article 58.-Precautions against the effects of attacks</div>
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The Parties to the conflict shall, to the maximum extent feasible:</div>
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( a ) Without prejudice to Article 49 of the Fourth Convention, endeavour to remove the civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects under their control from the vicinity of military objectives;</div>
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( b ) Avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas;</div>
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( c ) Take the other necessary precautions to protect the civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects under their control against the dangers resulting from military operations.”</div>
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<a href="http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/protocol1_2.htm" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/protocol1_2.htm</a></div>
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So Slaughter, a shadow JUSTICE minister believes that war-crimes are legitimate instruments of war, for one group of combatants.</div>
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If someone picks a side in a conflict; and supports gross breaches in their conduct, such as explicitly endorsing activity which constitutes a war crime, then one is dealing with a moral pervert.<br />
Slaughter clearly supports war criminals and their genocidal aims. Some suggest he is motivated by something other than antisemitism. However, they have not come up with an alternative motivation as to why a left-wing member of Parliament supports genocidal, Islamofascists.<br />
What you think Martin; does he like their Logo or something?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Ben</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 1:41 pm</td></tr>
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“Ben’s comments were insincere in my opinion”</div>
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It’s fairly clear you thought my comments were insincere, the problem is I suspect that your vituperative smearing of me in the last thread is all too sincere. I seem to represent something for you that really pushes your buttons – perhaps you feel I am an apologist, or wilfully turn a blind eye. But neither of these are true.</div>
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There are some good comments in this thread from DL and Abu Faris and Kolya and I am glad people are disagreeing with the collective guilt implications (as I see them) of Joseph’s suggestion of institutional racism. At the same time, I appreciate that his phrasing is a bit more qualified and a bit less bald than in the last piece.</div>
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Sarah says something that I think in part really hits the nail on the head – part of the problem is that the dodgy behaviour of a few Labour people (and I think you can count the main culprits on the fingers of one hand, actually) is not picked up in the media. One of the biggest problems I feel I face in trying to talk to people about anti-semitism, homophobia and Islamist supremacism is that they don’t know much about people in the Labour Party who back this sort of thing because it’s not picked up in the media. And that’s ok – this is not core to why most people join Labour, even though they have decent sensibilities. It is mostly just places like here, Gilligan and Ted Jeory that give info. Labour people distrust Gilligan, and a lot on the left incrreasingly distrust this place if they’ve heard of it (which is one of the reasons I feel suggestions like Joseph’s play into the hands of my opponents – although a fair smallish minority of people also read and agree with HP in my experience, which is impressive given it’s a niche blog). If people were slammed in the mainstream media, then the ammunition to attack would be there much more readily.</div>
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Kolya, replying to something you asked in the last thread – I do accept that some Jews feel increasingly worried by the flow of opinion and comment in society (not all – I know some who are not bothered). I am not Jewish and I feel upset myself, as I feel some people are getting away from what it means to be left-wing, making it about hatred rather than enlightened progressivism. But whilst I recognise that, and stand with those people in a general spirit, that doesn’t mean that I think people should be given a free pass to see over-arching problems where they are not. I think the suggestion that Labour is institutionally racist is a substantial overreach, and I am going to say that and have an argument. That is not the same as telling Jews not to make too much fuss – make all the fuss in the world about stuff that is true!</div>
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Slaughter is a ghastly creep and I have to say I think it is inexplicable that he is a junior shadow minister. I suspect that Ed does not himself pay an enormous amount of attention to the issues that we ourselves are discussing here. Coming back to the role of the media here, again. People focus on the core stuff to do with jobs and services and the economy and the idea that there might be people in Labour who support racists would seem very strange to them.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>James Undy</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 1:42 pm</td></tr>
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Disillusioned -</div>
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I suspect he’s fallen prey to the overwhelming temptation of being liked.</div>
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If you were a New Labour MP ten years ago you knew you were probably where the majority of your constituents were politically.</div>
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But you spent your life in very different company – with embittered, unrepresentative activists constantly demanding you “take a stand” on their pet obsessions.</div>
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It takes courage to hold the line when it comes to re-selection – or more generally, just to face the daily grind of spending your time with people who hate you.</div>
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Slaughter doesn’t strike me as a man with that kind of courage. And nothing brings you activist acclaim more easily and cheaply than slagging off Israel.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Stephen Rothbart</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 1:54 pm</td></tr>
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How many casualties did NATO suffer in its bombing attacks on Libya last year? Where was the Labour or Tory opposition to that?</div>
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The reason Jews see so much anti-Israeli rhetoric as being anti-Semitic is the hypocricy and double standards of the people making these stupid claims.</div>
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On a side note, the conviction of Charles Taylor was a wonderful result for Human Rights. But I am sure the Pal pals are rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of going after Israeli politicians now.</div>
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Of course there is no comparison is there? But where will the Labour Party stand if some of their MPs start calling for Ms. Livni and other prominent Israeli leaders to be called for account for Cast Lead, especially with the Goldstone Report’s disgraceful conclusions (despite Goldstone’s belated retraction of most of them, as a stitch up – who knew?) still quoted by the UN as an official record. Or can someone here tell me it is not?</div>
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And this is not an anti-Labour post, the Tories have their own guilty men and are lumbered with the notorious Pal pals inside the Lib-Dems, but this article is about a Labour perspective.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Shmoo-El</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 1:57 pm</td></tr>
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<i>It’s fairly clear you thought my comments were insincere, the problem is I suspect that your vituperative smearing of me in the last thread is all too sincere. I seem to represent something for you that really pushes your buttons – perhaps you feel I am an apologist, or wilfully turn a blind eye. But neither of these are true.</i></div>
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Sorry, if I was harsh. But why should I believe you are not an apologist? I don’t know who you are, but nothing you wrote provides a shred of evidence that you publicly speak out against particular acts within your party. Quite on the contrary, most of what you wrote criticizes the very basis of the accusation. You come across as a politician in apologist mode. I don’t think I’m stretching things a bit.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 2:08 pm</td></tr>
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<i>Actually, rereading my riff on institutional racism I realise that the b) definition might be stretched to fit…but in fact I have general reservations about eliding “unconscious racism” with “ïnstitutional racism” unless the “unconscious racism” is quite distinctive to the traditions of the institution concerned.</i></div>
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That is quite fairly something to consider, because it is not easily proven. It is my opinion that antisemitic attitudes have become normalized in many European left institutions. Whether such unconscious racism is a “tradition” in Labour is hard to demonstrate because it is more of recent phenomenon. I think a more conservative accusation would be that Labour is becoming, or has recently become, a party with a systemic Jewish problem.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Bialik</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 2:14 pm</td></tr>
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I agree with Shmoo-el; institutional racism doesn’t mean that everybody is racist, but that there is racism within its ranks (but not actual discrimination) that is tolerated. On the latter point, the difference for Jewish members who don’t think Israel is the source of all evil is negligible.<br />
Does racism have to be promoted for the charge of inst. rac. to stick? I don’t know, but if it does than the booking of rooms in Parliament for the purpose of hosting speakers who compare Israelis to Nazis (and they don’t mean Israeli arabs) would count imo. Should we use ‘mainstreaming’ instead of promoting? It’s a horrible word but might be more appropriate; let’s say it is a stage before promotion. I can’t see anybody disagreeing with the lesser charge.<br />
Finally, there is the claim that the problem the modern Labour Party (urban membership?) has with Jews is ideological. I’m struggling to understand that as Jews as a group do not represent anti-Palestinian statehood any more than they represent capitalism or Bolshevism.</div>
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James Undy – you are absolutely right and describe exactly the situation in my own CLP, as I’ve written about here before. I also think the age of the active debating (as opposed to campaigning) members of CLPs matters; they have anti-imperialism (strictly American, of course) in their veins. But then, why not Cuba as the obsession du jour? I think there are issues about the flipping of victimhood which make the I/P narrative particularly attractive. It’s the gist of Slaughter’s speech: he is more or less saying that it is absurd to give the Israeli point of view when they are the stronger party militarily. In other words, the shadow justice minister thinks that justice = giving the benefit of the doubt to the small guy. But it doesn’t. Justice is blind. It’s the cause, the motive and the actions that’s supposed to matter, not the relative size of the parties.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarka</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 2:25 pm</td></tr>
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James Undy.</div>
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You really are right about the temptations of making these shots about IPal. And that prompts much gloomier thoughts even than the theory that IPal obsessed nutters are becomng more frequent in the LP…i.e. Intemperate attacks on Israel are popular, they win you Brownie points – not just with some minority constituency, like Muslims or pro-Palestinian activists – but with lib/left “progressive”" opinion generally.</div>
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This is what has most worried me about my CIF experiences on IPal threads. Obviously, CIF concentrates some of the anti-Israel tinfoil mad hatters…and just reading the Guardian/CIF with nothing else would give anyone a completely cock-eyed view of even leftist opinion. What worries me has not been the core obsessed nutters including some fairly obvious antisemites, though…but the number of otherwise intelligent leftist persons of good political judgment (on many other issues discussed in CIF) – who comment relatively sparingly on IPal (so not obsessed at all) but who when they do comment just take it for granted that sympathy for the poor Palestinians and outrage at Israeli “brutality” and injustice is the only possible position for any “nice”, “sensitive”, “humane” person to take…that there is something somewhat morally and politically suspicious about anyone taking some contrary view.</div>
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I noticed the same sort of thing in David Edgar’s piece on why he opposed BDW (in the context of the petition against Habima playing Merchant of Venice at the Globe). Edgar stated that the important argument was not between those who condemned Israel’s policies in the West Bank and those who did not condemn them so much or at all (the latter were implicitly dismissed as beyond the pale), but between those who agreed on the wickedness of Israel’s behaviour but disagreed on whether BDW was or was not a moral and practical response. Now, seems to me that here Edgar was positioning himself as a representative of mainstream lib-left sentiment on the matter – and not unwarrantably so, because I think the fairly standard libleft view now is hesitant to resistant to BDW (why the movement has failed), not antizionist enough to really deny Israel\s right to exist, but nonetheless committed to the meme that Israel’s behaviour to the Palestinians is uniquely cruel and disproportionate to any threat to Israel. Any attempt to challenge this view – and it doesn’t have to be by some uncritical identification with the mosthardline Israeli positions – it is quite enough just to try to state the Israeli predicament in context, even complete with criticism of some Israeli actions…brands<br />
the challenger as mean and inhumane. Almost – to be cynical, as the sort of person who also believes in capital punishment, corporal punishment for children, and huge taxbreaks for the rich…</div>
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This – aaargh – makes attacking Israel and lamenting Palestinian sufferings – a good card to play even by politicians who have otherwise no interest in IPal when appealing to audiences who have no special interest in IPal.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Steve from Raleigh</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 2:43 pm</td></tr>
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cityca</div>
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Actually, far left ‘progressive’ anarcho fascist libertarians are already starting to say that the wrong side lost WW2. What do you think Glenn Greenwald has been saying?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>DCook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 2:55 pm</td></tr>
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<i>However, they have not come up with an alternative motivation as to why a left-wing member of Parliament supports genocidal, Islamofascists.<br />What you think Martin; does he like their Logo or something?</i></div>
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Why did he mention a terrorist supporting, antisemitic group called PSC?</div>
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He seems to indicate that the “Israel Lobby” seeks to drown out PSC. PSC is no offical, government recognised agency but a bunch of Jew-hating. Israel-hating rabble.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Gene</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 3:09 pm</td></tr>
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As I’ve said before, if you have one set of standards for Israel, and another set of standards for every other country in the world, the burden is on you to explain why you’re <i>not</i> antisemitic.</div>
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Getting back to Rebecca’s comment:</div>
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<i>One wonders how he would react if rockets had been fired for the last ten years from, say, Wales upon London. Would he have been so sanguine at the thought that “only” 21 Londoners had been killed, and because of the overwhelming firepower possessed by London, would he have refrained from calling for a military response and said that the people of London would just have to put up with this minor irritant?</i></div>
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If MP Slaughter would advise the same lack of response to rocket attacks from Wales on London as he advises to attacks from Gaza on Israeli towns, I would not accuse him of antisemitism. If he holds England and Israel to different standards, it’s another matter.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Ohad</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 3:34 pm</td></tr>
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<i>I know that many if not most Labour activists are appalled at this kind of rhetoric, but they are losing a battle that they have to win.</i></div>
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I don’t believe this, because I have never noticed European liberal politicians pushing back at all at this kind of rhetoric.</div>
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I can only conclude that Israel these days has very few friends that identify as “liberal”.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.oyvagoy.com/" style="color: #fa4949;">OyVaGoy</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 3:36 pm</td></tr>
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Gene: “As I’ve said before, if you have one set of standards for Israel, and another set of standards for every other country in the world, the burden is on you to explain why you’re not antisemitic.”</div>
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Such a good way of putting it.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Harvey</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 3:53 pm</td></tr>
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I would be interesting to find out the ratio of civilians to terrorists and their handlers in that total figure of Palestinians killed .<br />
Perhaps and I’m order to even things up a bit , Israel should have responded by using the same primitive sort of weaponry that the Palestinians use . Rocket for rocket , mortar for mortar . 10,000 and counting .<br />
Slaughter would not be able to quibble with the slaughter on that basis .</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lamia</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 3:57 pm</td></tr>
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@ Abu Faris</div>
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<i>I do not think this makes the Party institutionally racist – any more than the Tory Party of the ’70s and early ’80s, with a right wing often too closely linked to the world fascist network, made the Conservatives, in fact, a fascist party.</i></div>
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The Tories obviously weren’t facists as a whole, but they <i>were</i>tolerant of members with facist sympathies – e.g. the odious Alan Clarke – and they had quite few such people. They were institutionally tolerant of all kinds of quite outspoken bigots, and it rightly earned them a bad reputation as a party.</div>
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The problem here seems to be the term ‘institutionally racist’ – which, as Sarah says, does seem harsh. However, it was probably also harsh for all sorts of organisations which have been thus described previously. The fashion for describing organisations as ‘institutionally racist’ is almost entirely a creation of the left. So it is a bit rich for that section of the political spectrum to call foul now when its own categorisations of others are applied to itself.</div>
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More accurate to say; Labour is, as an institution, tolerant of the antisemites within it, and it shouldn’t be.</div>
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And I don’t buy that, as some have suggested, other Labour MPs, especially at the top, simply aren’t aware of it, or have more important things to attend to. Tolerating the likes of Slaughter undoes the work and efforts of the large amount of Labour supporters who are truly anti-racist.</div>
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I think another point worth bearing in mind is that there are members of parties who have bigoted views but don’t have it as central to their political worldview and campaigning. An additional problem with antisemitism compared to other bigotries is that it seems to lend itself to all kinds of scapegoating of ‘zionists’ for all sorts of matters not even remotely linkable in any sane way to Israel – e.g. the global economy, natural disasters etc. And people like Slaughter and Corbyn happily rub shoulders with those unhinged scapegoaters.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lamia</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 3:58 pm</td></tr>
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Typo: “they had quite <i>a</i> few such people”.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>martinbuber</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 4:01 pm</td></tr>
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<i>if you have one set of standards for Israel, and another ….</i></div>
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Except this is a standard bit of pro-Israel mudslinging. You have no actual evidence that Slaughter does have special standards for Israel that he doesn’t apply in any other case. Evidence please?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Penny</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 4:04 pm</td></tr>
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“sympathy for the poor Palestinians and outrage at Israeli “brutality” and injustice is the only possible position for any “nice”, “sensitive”, “humane” person to take…that there is something somewhat morally and politically suspicious about anyone taking some contrary view.”</div>
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Although I am not longer active in politics, I am still invited to some political events and I am familiar with this attitude – almost always accompanied by not a jot of factual knowledge. In fact, should it occur, I will consider ‘jot’ to be encouraging. Among this type of person the images and perceptions are so skewed and their knowledge so weak that it is almost impossible to know where to begin when attempting to counter their views. A three-day course just to get the basics (even down to the fact that they don’t know there’s a geographical – much less idealogical – difference between West Bank and Gaza) would be required.</div>
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As a result of my position I experience the suspicion you mention, Sarka. To the extent that a few now give me either wide berth or as disapproving a frown as they feel they can get away with.</div>
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Among these people there is a definite tendency – and I am not exaggerating here – to make judgements based not on knowledge or facts but on who they believe to be the smaller, weaker, more struggle-ridden group. This tendency applies not only to Israel, but to any issue in which there is a perception either of an imblance or a victim.</div>
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That they are politically active is rather worrying.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Gene</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 4:05 pm</td></tr>
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<i>Except this is a standard bit of pro-Israel mudslinging. You have no actual evidence that Slaughter does have special standards for Israel that he doesn’t apply in any other case. Evidence please?</i></div>
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I didn’t say he did. I said <i>if he does</i>, and offered the hypothetical of rocket attacks from Wales on London.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>martinbuber</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 4:07 pm</td></tr>
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DocMartyn: Well yes, we’ve been here before, haven’t we, many times? You want to say that Palestinian rockets are war crimes but Israeli attacks on Gaza are not, because the first are “indiscriminate” and the second are supposedly directed with care toward “legitimate” targets. It is basically BS, though, to claim that Israeli attacks with such a high proportion of non-combatant casualties are discriminate. Also, the IDF has used Palestinians as human shields.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 4:11 pm</td></tr>
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“I said <i>if he does</i> …”</div>
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I’m pretty sure that if I started entertaining hypotheticals here, according to which you, Gene, were an anti-Arab racist, you wouldn’t be satisfied by my protestations that it was merely “what if”.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.oyvagoy.com/" style="color: #fa4949;">OyVaGoy</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 4:15 pm</td></tr>
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Joseph W: “OVG, no he did not state those exact words, no.”</div>
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But you asked us to write to Ed Miliband and our MPs claiming that he did.</div>
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To clarify: am I correct that neither Tayyab Ali nor Jeremy Corbyn acutally used the words “Jewish influence” that you keep quoting them as using?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lamia</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 4:33 pm</td></tr>
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<i>You have no actual evidence that Slaughter does have special standards for Israel that he doesn’t apply in any other case. Evidence please?</i></div>
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He shows in the same speech he holds Palestinians to quite different standards – in fact to no standards at all, here:</div>
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<i>that the whole impact in talking about rocket attacks in Gaza, in talking about <b>alleged offenses</b> by Palestinian side, is to mask that disparity</i></div>
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Slaughter is a long-standing whitewasher of Hamas’ own Charter, which include the destruction of Israel and the wiping out of Jews, thus:</div>
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<i>“The Day of Judgement will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, ‘O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews”</i></div>
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Hamas refuses to repudiate that, yet slaughter complains:</div>
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<i>Time and again, the Hamas leadership – in Syria as well as Gaza – has given signals that it is prepared to compromise on or abandon the policies cited by Israel and its supporters as barriers to dialogue.</i></div>
<i></i><br />
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<i>The uncompromising Israeli position leads Hamas to conclude Israel is no longer interested in agreement on any reasonable terms.</i></div>
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<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/mar/13/gaza-deadlock-hamas-engagement" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/mar/13/gaza-deadlock-hamas-engagement</a></div>
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Now would <i>you</i> negotiate with people who advocated a policy of killing you and all your fellow citizens? I know I wouldn’t. Instead I would want them dead or at least incapacitated until they showed they were willing to repudiate that. But Slaughter and others absurdly expect Israel to deal with such people. That is a standard I have never seen appplied to any other group. That is why it is a double standard.</div>
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Slaughter also claims:</div>
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<i>The Israeli propaganda machine tries to vilify the PSC…</i></div>
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When the PSC has entertained and counted among its ranks a large number of antisemitic bigots, including Holocaust deniers or minimisers, most of whom try to use the label ‘anti-zionist’ to excuse their recycling and propagating of age-old anti-semitic tropes. Some don’t even bother. Slaughter should have nothing to do with such a group of people, and yet he defends them.</div>
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Likewise Corbyn should have nothing to do with a man who recycles the blood libel about Jews and looks back fondly on taunting a Jewish school-teacher with a swastika – but he does.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Barry Meislin</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 4:33 pm</td></tr>
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<i>It is basically BS, though, to claim that Israeli attacks with such a high proportion of non-combatant casualties are discriminate.</i></div>
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Indeed!! Hear hear!!</div>
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Repeat it 100 times. Rinse. Repeat it 1000 times more. Rinse some more!!</div>
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In fact, if you said it (and repeated it! And rinsed! A thousand times, nay, a million—do I hear 10 million?), then it must be so.</div>
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Especially if it be repeated by all the buberiferous arbitres of morality today.</div>
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Hear! Hear!!</div>
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<a href="http://llphfreedom.blogspot.com/2010/01/goldstone-gaza-report-col-richard-kemp.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://llphfreedom.blogspot.com/2010/01/goldstone-gaza-report-col-richard-kemp.html</a></div>
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File under: A beacon of buberiferosity!!</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 4:39 pm</td></tr>
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“Harvey<br />
I would be interesting to find out the ratio of civilians to terrorists and their handlers in that total figure of Palestinians killed”<br />
In 2002 the ratio was approximately one civilian to one illegal combatant, by 2008 the figure was one civilian to 30 illegal combatants.<br />
<a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/targeted-killing-is-worki_b_79616.html?" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/targeted-killing-is-worki_b_79616.html?</a><br />
The Male:Female death ratio is approximately 16:1.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>hasan p</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 4:41 pm</td></tr>
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<i>If you were a New Labour MP ten years ago you knew you were probably where the majority of your constituents were politically.</i></div>
<i></i><br />
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<i>But you spent your life in very different company – with embittered, unrepresentative activists constantly demanding you “take a stand” on their pet obsessions.</i></div>
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I feel this is a lot nearer the mark than someone who panders to his constituents, the largest minorities among them being Polish and Irish.</div>
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That these are the words of a Labour Front Bench spokesman beggars belief. It is such a pity that a good candidate like Shaun Bailey was unable to take Hammersmith in 2010.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>martinbuber</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 4:43 pm</td></tr>
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Lamia: “He shows in the same speech he holds Palestinians to quite different standards – in fact to no standards at all, ”</div>
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Even if that were true, it wouldn’t establish the claim at issue which was</div>
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“one set of standards for Israel, and another set of standards for every other country in the world”.</div>
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So no evidence produced then, just the standard mud-slinging.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>martinbuber</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 4:47 pm</td></tr>
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Well whatever, Barry: deny deny deny, that’s the strategy. But Israel does use Palestinians as human shields, which is, as pointed out by DocMartyn above, a war crime</div>
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<a href="http://youtu.be/rXq57XK2L0A" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://youtu.be/rXq57XK2L0A</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>zkharya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 4:53 pm</td></tr>
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‘Joseph W: “OVG, no he did not state those exact words, no.”</div>
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But you asked us to write to Ed Miliband and our MPs claiming that he did.’</div>
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No, he didn’t. He said nothing of those being the exact words.</div>
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‘To clarify: am I correct that neither Tayyab Ali nor Jeremy Corbyn acutally used the words “Jewish influence” that you keep quoting them as using?’</div>
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You’re behind on JW’s argument, with which you may disagree, but which goes something like this.</div>
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Ali called for investigation into the Israel lobby and indeed CST, which is not a ‘pro-Israel’ organization. He also called for investigation into a Jewish individual on the grounds of his being allegedly a trustee of CST, when he is no such thing.</div>
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There is clearly a conflation of ‘pro-Israel’ with ‘Jewish’ here, and Ali’s conflation Corbyn clearly endorsed, though he may have been unaware how factually incorrect Ali’s assertion was.</div>
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JW has admittedly compressed all these facts, or compressed his response to them, that does, practically speaking, constitute a call for investigation into alleged pro-Israel organizations or persons in fact by virtue of their Jewishness.</div>
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I think JW should have perhaps argued a little more tightly and been a little more cautious in his assertions, but I can certainly see where he and his argument are coming from.</div>
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On the whole, I find JW confines himself to facts and arguing strictly from them.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lamia</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 4:55 pm</td></tr>
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I see you are trying to re-word your own argument. Here is what you said:</div>
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<i>You have no actual evidence that Slaughter does have special standards for Israel <b>that he doesn’t apply in any other case</b>. Evidence please?</i></div>
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i.e. you demanded any exception to what you presume to be a principle of Slaughters. And I gave it to you. I gave you evidence of him applying applying standards for Israel in another case: Palestine. That meets the requirement of your challenge. Wriggle all you like.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 4:58 pm</td></tr>
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“applying different standards for Israel”</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 4:58 pm</td></tr>
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<i>“one set of standards for Israel, and another set of standards for every other country in the world”.<br />So no evidence produced then, just the standard mud-slinging</i></div>
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and</div>
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<i>It is basically BS, though, to claim that Israeli attacks with such a high proportion of non-combatant casualties are discriminate.</i></div>
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Seems that in the space of couple of posts you are providing a fine example of double standards. Perhaps you can explain how you have reached the conclusion of “such a high proportion of non-combatant casualties”. You can make use of valid comparisons with other world armies in similar situations.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>martinbuber</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 5:09 pm</td></tr>
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No Lamia, it is you who are confused. The claim made by Gene was that some people apply special standards for Israel and different standards for *everyone* else. To falsify that you need to show not that there is some case where those people apply a different standard by that they would to so in every other case.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>DocMartyn</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 5:10 pm</td></tr>
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“martinbuber<br />
DocMartyn: Well yes, we’ve been here before, haven’t we, many times?”<br />
Yes we have.<br />
You support terrorists and I support legitimate combatants.<br />
I support the Law and Customs of War which aim to keep civilians as low as possible and you support indiscriminate murder.<br />
You are a moral pervert and I’m not.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>martinbuber</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 5:14 pm</td></tr>
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Incidentally, holding Israel to a higher standard than the Palestinians is fine. Israel is an economically advanced country that makes a big deal of being a democracy. Other members of the democratic club (and their citizens) have every right to complain when one of their number engages in serious human rights violations. (Just as members of a vegetarian association would have expect higher standards from their members in refraining from eating meat than they would from the rest of the population.) Israel’s violence, like US drone attacks, reflect badly on the liberal democracies as a whole. So we should hold them to account.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lamia</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 5:28 pm</td></tr>
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<i>Incidentally, holding Israel to a higher standard than the Palestinians is fine. Israel is an economically advanced country that makes a big deal of being a democracy.</i></div>
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Er, so do supporters of the Palestinians make a big deal out of the fact that Hamas were elected ‘democratically’ (one time only, so far, though). whether it’s economically advanced or not is neither here nor there. No one forces the Palestinians to spend money on explosive rockets.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lbnaz</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 5:35 pm</td></tr>
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Watch as the inappropriately monikered Martin Buber studiously avoids directly answering the question put to him by Bezengi @ 4:58 pm…</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>MArk2</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 5:42 pm</td></tr>
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“JW has admittedly compressed all these facts, or compressed his response to them, that does, practically speaking, constitute a call for investigation into alleged pro-Israel organizations or persons in fact by virtue of their Jewishness.”</div>
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Let’s be clear what the danger of this “compression” is in the real world to the pro Israeli/anti anti semitic cause. People will quote the compression at a meeting on a blog, and find thesmelves confronted with the counter argument that the person did not use those words. The lying toads will go on to spin the actual words the way THEY want to and the pro Israeli case will suffer.</div>
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No Joseph – it doesn’t look as headline grabbing as “Labour is insitutionally racist” (assuming that is what it is supposed to be – and I for one doubt it) but it is more helpful to those of us who actually want to counter this PSC style bollocks and real antisemitism – mainly on the left, if HP etc supply us with actual quotes and keep the lines and interpretations separate.</div>
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Of course if HP has given up on fighting these causes on the left then let us know and those of us who havn’t will know not to waste our time and perhaps look elsewhere.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Disillusioned Lurker</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 5:51 pm</td></tr>
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Have to disagree with you there, hasan. Bailey was overrated and overhyped – there is a reason why his result was so “surprisingly” poor, even with an opponent like Slaughter.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarka</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 6:14 pm</td></tr>
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MartinBuber<br />
(Do wish you chose another monicker, I’m fond of the original MB).<br />
“DocMartyn: Well yes, we’ve been here before, haven’t we, many times? You want to say that Palestinian rockets are war crimes but Israeli attacks on Gaza are not, because the first are “indiscriminate” and the second are supposedly directed with care toward “legitimate” targets.”</div>
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No no no. Your argument’s all over the place. Let’s forget emotive words about “war crimes” and just consider the realities of war/conflict. If one side is “stronger” in terms of hardware and military discipline – i.e. it can more efficiently inflict damage on the other side than vice versa – that does not in itself give it an unlimited range of options for dealing effectively with the threat represented by the other side. Only if it had an unlimited range of options of this kind could it be held solely responsible, when acting in self-defence – for everything that happened to the other side.</div>
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Comparative Israeli strength does not give Israel unlimited options! Its government has a natural desire and duty to defend its citizens from the threat of injury and death by hostile action – inside or from outside its borders – a perfectly real threat: quite apart from this natural desire, if it decided to experiment in not bothering to respond to the threats, and so just permitting attacks on its citizens and turning the other cheek, despite the fear, injuries and sometimes deaths caused, as a democratic regime it would soon be out on its ear.</div>
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It is in fact hamstrung by its status as a better equipped, more effective and democratic state (which has to do something about threats, yet at the same time cares a good deal, unlike its enemies, about how much damage it can morally inflict on the other population). Its enemies have also learned to use this against it: their tactics are not an attempt to inflict major direct damage (they would like to, but are currently unable to do so) but as long as they are unable to, to keep on and on provoking in the hope of getting Israel to do anything that can plausibly be presented as a “war crime”. For this a) keeps their own population in a state of feverish grievance and vengefulness and b) can be used to generate international criticism of Israel. Believe me (and this is what is so sad about Palestinian political culture, which has become dreadfully morally corrupted in this sense – though the fault is by no means only theirs), the more civilian deaths (preferable women and children) that they provoke Israel into inflicting – always unwillingly, the happier they are! And – horribly and less excusably – the pro-Palestinian Western leftists – and the international Islamists – who love to linger on the sufferings of the Palestinians – have developed a ghastly armchair version of this. I’m sorry, but I sense it…that alacrity with which any Israeli “atrocity” is seized on and found pornily satisfying somehow, that almost palpable disappointment when some confrontation with Israelis fails to end in a bit of blood and some martyred protesters, kids, whatever…</div>
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I’m amazed that anyone intelligent fails to recognise all this. To recognise it does not mean to agree with all Israeli policies or actions, to adopt a position of “Ïsrael right or wrong”….Indeed it is essential that it is recognised for any half-way sober, practical steps to be taken to get a viable solution on the road. Painting the Israelis (despite some unlovely and unhelpful Israeli attitudes in some parts of the Israeli spectrum) as “war criminals” and Palestinians as “suffering martyrs” is a recipe for disaster, playing only into the hands of the (alas) many unrealistic extremists on the Palestinian side and the proportionately much fewer but still too influential extremists on the Israeli side.</div>
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So stop doing it Martin Buber. If the real Martin Buber were alive today he would think you an idiot.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Julian</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 6:15 pm</td></tr>
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Rebecca, I am very aware of the limitations to drawing parallels between Israel and the PIRS, but I think you’ll find –</div>
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‘One wonders how he would react if rockets had been fired for the last ten years from, say, Wales upon London.’<br />
- The PIRA killed thousands of British soldiers, policemen, and bystanders in the years of the insurgency. The reaction was not to bomb the Bogside.</div>
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‘Would he have been so sanguine at the thought that “only” 21 Londoners had been killed,’<br />
In the years of the insurgency killed thousands including some dozens in the UK mainland.</div>
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‘and because of the overwhelming firepower possessed by London, would he have refrained from calling for a military response and said that the people of London would just have to put up with this minor irritant?’</div>
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That’s pretty much what did happen.<br />
The establishment response maintained over many years and different governments was essentially to patronise the murderous bastards out of existence. It worked more or less, in the end, but at the expense of a lot of double-think by the likes of Blair & Mowlem, and the marginalisation of the decent politcians of NI, but it did work sort of.</div>
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I repeat there’s very few arrows to be drawn from NI to I/P.</div>
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But get your history right at least.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Julian</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 6:17 pm</td></tr>
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So, from the NI experience – if you refuse to play the victim role, (easier for Brits than most) then perhaps – you end up as not a victim but the victor?</div>
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Just saying.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>DocMartyn</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 6:24 pm</td></tr>
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“martinbuber</div>
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But Israel does use Palestinians as human shields, which is, as pointed out by DocMartyn above, a war crime”</div>
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You are a Fuck-wit. Israel is a State. The IDF is a State actor and individual soldiers are members of the IDF. The State of Israel can only be responsible for a war-crime, in this case the use of human shields, if it does not take measures to stop it. As it happens the IDF, like all legal combatant entities, has a codified manual of conduct that its troops must adhere to.</div>
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Israel’s Manual on the Rules of Warfare (2006) states:<br />
“In the rules of war, there is a serious prohibition on the use of civilians as human shields, that is to say, it is prohibited to scatter military targets among civilian installations in an attempt to prevent an attack on them”<br />
“the presence of prisoners of war must not be used for the ‘protection’ of military targets from attack”.<br />
“It is prohibited to place hostages, prisoners-of-war or civilians in places likely to be attacked by enemy forces, with the intention of preventing such attack.”<br />
Troops who have been shown to have misused civilians or POW’s as human shields are prosecuted.</div>
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Israel’s High Court of Justice in the Adalah (Early Warning Procedure) case of 2005stated in its judgement:-<br />
“It is clear that an army … is not permitted to use local residents as a “human shield” (see article 28 of IV Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War 1949 (hereinafter – the Fourth Geneva Convention); article 51(7) of The First Protocol [1977 Additional Protocol I]; see also Fleck, at p. 218)). Pictet correctly noted that the use of people as a “human shield” is a “cruel and barbaric” act (see J. Pictet Commentary IV Geneva Convention (1958) 208; rule 97 of International Humanitarian Law).”</div>
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Thus, as the State of Israel educates its military personnel in the Laws and Customs of War, that it prosecutes individual soldiers and their officers in case of such breaches and investigates complaints of breaches, the the STATE of Israel cannot be guilty of war-crimes.<br />
Recently it has come to light that individual UK police officers have taken money from the press in exchange for information. This is clearly illegal, and these officers have committed crimes. it does not follow that the Police Service of the UK is a criminal organization. Only a fuck-wit would transfer the criminal actions of individuals, against standing orders, to an organization.</div>
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Martin Buber, you are a moral pervert. You support genocidal terrorists in their aim to destroy a civilized, democratic society and kill all the members of a specific ethnic group. You cheer-leading for genocidal fascists is all to common amongst the left.<br />
Are you a member of the Labour Party and Union member perchance?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>martinbuber</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 6:44 pm</td></tr>
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“You support genocidal terrorists in their aim to destroy a civilized, democratic society and kill all the members of a specific ethnic group. You cheer-leading for genocidal fascists is all to common amongst the left.”</div>
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Sorry, but why does pointing out that your arguments are crap amount to “cheer-leading for genocidal fascists”?</div>
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“Only a fuck-wit would transfer the criminal actions of individuals, against standing orders, to an organization.”</div>
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Well that’s an interesting one isn’t it. Jeremy Hunt tells us that Adam Smith wasn’t following his instructions, oh no, so he can’t be held responsible ….. Similarly, the Israeli military has a code that says soldiers mustn’t do bad things, so Israel can’t be held responsible when they do … Surely even you are smart enough to see that people, states, organizations often tolerate conduct (with a nod and a wink) that they officially condemn. They are then shocked. Shocked I tell you! … “your winnings, sir” “thank you very much”</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarka</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 7:11 pm</td></tr>
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MartinBuber<br />
I am very much in favour of a Palestinian state. And this (apart from wishing Palestinians as people well, and wanting them to have the basis for building something positive) is partly because once the Palestinians have an official state, then they will have to accept the full accountability of having a state, including the issue of war crimes if they commit anything that anyone cares to argue is a war crime. Sure, just having a code in place and a raft of international obligations as a state doesn’t mean that militaries or governments won’t try and fiddle, cover their backs, close ranks etc in case of accusations. But at least at this stage there is some proper framework for investigation and discussion. And it’s not as if Israel never disciplines men and commanders on the basis of its codes…sure Israel is not a perfect place and it’s not a perfect world, but your position is odd…</div>
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i.e. it oscillates between a kind of naive absolutist moral idealism (states should never ever defend themselves to the extent of using disproportionate force, even though by your standards no force needed to defend could be anything but dispproportionate – unless you’d like to make practical suggestions, which you don’t)</div>
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and then a total cynicism, viz Israel having codes and standards means diddly squat.</div>
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The only connection is that your total fatuous naive idealism and your total teenage cynicism are both deployed only and exclusively against Israel. So it’s all a silly sanctimonious game not any attempt to get to grips with reality.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 7:12 pm</td></tr>
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From the original post:</div>
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Since rocket attacks from Gaza begun in 2004, 21 people have been killed in Israel, and yes of course we regret that. 4594 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza.</div>
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If the ratio of Palestinian to Israeli casualties is the measure of Israel’s culpability, the Palestinians could make their case infinitely stronger by aiming <i>all</i> their rockets into the Mediterranean.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Stephen Rothbart</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 7:18 pm</td></tr>
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MArk2: “Of course if HP has given up on fighting these causes on the left then let us know and those of us who havn’t will know not to waste our time and perhaps look elsewhere.”</div>
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So you are only interested in talking about a subject if everyone agrees with you?</div>
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Exchanging ideas is not your bag? Just my party right or wrong.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>martinbuber</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 7:58 pm</td></tr>
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“The only connection is that your total fatuous naive idealism and your total teenage cynicism are both deployed only and exclusively against Israel. ”</div>
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Oh really? WTF do you know? If there were a bunch of crazy Arab nationalists here at HP I’d happily argue against them. However, the passive-aggressive ethno-nationalist BS on display here is from the Israeli side.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lamia</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 8:01 pm</td></tr>
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Joseph W,</div>
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I think you are by and large doing a great job. If it riles certainly Labour loyalists, that is unfortunate, but this is not primarily about their egos or the well-being of their precious party, it is about how their party treats anti-semites and anti-semitism – clearly not seriously enough. You have been spot on in showing up this problem.</div>
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However, I agree with others that it is very important to be exact when using quote epithets for Corbyn and indeed anyone. It is more precise to call him Jeremy Corbyn, ’strong supporter’ of an inquiry into alleged Jewish interference in the UK immigration system. He’s also the inviter of the Blood Libel Sheikh to the House of Commons.</div>
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I think we all have a pretty good idea of what that adds up to, but it’s important he isn’t given a chance to portray himself as victim in this. He didn’t use the phrase ‘Jewish influence’, he ‘just’ ’strongly supports’ a ‘Human Rights’ lawyer’s insinuation that Jewish money is paying to interfere in the decisions of the Home Secretary.</div>
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So along with others I recommend you change the epithet in the article above. Jew-baiters will gleeefully jump on it and try to spin it as unfair (which it isn’t) because it is not strictly accurate in terms of the actual words Corbyn used (which it also isn’t).</div>
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Corbyn is getting more and more careless and nasty, and it wouldn’t surprise me if he doesn’t present us with another piece of self-incrimination quite soon.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Stephen Rothbart</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 8:03 pm</td></tr>
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<div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">
Julian, “One wonders how he would react if rockets had been fired for the last ten years from, say, Wales upon London.’<br />
- The PIRA killed thousands of British soldiers, policemen, and bystanders in the years of the insurgency. The reaction was not to bomb the Bogside.”</div>
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That is the most disingenuous remark I have seen on the subject.</div>
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Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. You do not bomb your own country – well unless you are Syrian, Libyan or Egyptian, that is – especially when you have a police force and an Army with troops there.</div>
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Gaza is not occupied. Israel pulled its people and its troops out of there because the world wanted them to and the Palestinians said there would be peace.</div>
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Then Hamas came in, kicked out the so-called moderates (or killed them) and started raining rockets down on Israel that had no police or Army in Gaza. That is an undeclared state of war with Israel.</div>
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There is also the teeny-weeny difference that the IRA just wanted the Brits out of Northern Ireland, not out of Europe.</div>
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The Palestinians on the other hand want the Jews out of the entire Middle East (along with the Christians).</div>
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So Julian do try to find an “apples with apples” situation to compare with Israel’s predicament.</div>
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Sarka, power to your pen!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Joseph W</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 8:15 pm</td></tr>
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Lamia, thanks, that is fair reasoning if ever there was some. Okay then, I’ve changed it in the piece – as you say, it’s clear what he means.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>ignorance is Bliss</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 8:17 pm</td></tr>
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“The Israeli propaganda machine tries to vilify the PSC… That is a sign of weakness.”</div>
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So you no one can criticise the PSC without being called a member of the ‘The Israeli propaganda machine’.</div>
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So when the PSC gets confused between anti-Israel and antisemitism (and they have) and when a English Jew mentions this problem, Slaughter labels them ‘Israelis’ and so acting for a foreign government.</div>
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Slaughter at one and the same time pushes antisemitism while saying anyone who notices this is nothing but a pro-Israeli liar.</div>
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Disgusting.</div>
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Disgusting.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lamia</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 8:27 pm</td></tr>
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Thanks, Joseph.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>ignorance is Bliss</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 8:33 pm</td></tr>
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Slaughter’s idea of the omnipotence of the ‘Israeli propaganda machine’ and its placement in his statement next to reference to the ‘British media’ (why else add the word ‘British’?) is nothing more a reworking of the “Lobby’ argument. The very idea that somehow Israel’s propaganda is so effective a force in the world that it can pull the wool over everyone’s eyes (apart from his) is just silly. It only has traction because of its dog-whistle appeal.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Julian</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 8:58 pm</td></tr>
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Stephen, keep your socks on mate.</div>
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I was responding to Rebecca who specifically made the example of Wales vs. London. Wales is part of the UK, no? And also in my post I twice made the point that there’s only very thin comparisons to be made between I/P and the NI situation, did I not?</div>
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So why don’t you read the bloody posts before blowing off?</div>
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If you make like Outraged of Tunbridge Wells, then that’s up to you. You’ll still be nothing more than Outraged in 50 years time.</div>
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Anyway the main point, that if you make like a victim you are a victim, still stands.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lbnaz</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 9:01 pm</td></tr>
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Bezengi to MB @ 4:58 pm:</div>
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<i>Seems that in the space of couple of posts you are providing a fine example of double standards. Perhaps you can explain how you have reached the conclusion of “such a high proportion of non-combatant casualties”. You can make use of valid comparisons with other world armies in similar situations.</i></div>
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<i>Lbnaz @ 5:35 pm</i></div>
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<i></i>Watch as the inappropriately monikered Martin Buber studiously avoids directly answering the question put to him by Bezengi @ 4:58 pm…</div>
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As I post it’s after 8:03 pm and the woefully inappropriately monikered Martin Buber still has not provided a direct answer to Bezengi.</div>
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Perhaps it’s because the IDF during Cast Lead maintained by far the lowest non-combatant to combatant fatality ratio of any army anywhere in the history of warfare (and this ratio citing General Kemp was drawn from a UN published report).</div>
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Thus, this inappropriately-named ‘Martin Buber’ character besides being a war-mongering, blood-thirsty proponent of destroying Israel and having it for all intent and purpose supplanted with an Arab and Islamic state (which isn’t anything the actual Martin Buber would ever have supported) is incapable of acknowledging that his canard holding Israel solely responsible of <i>“such a high proportion of non-combatant casualties”</i> – and in doing so entirely whitewashing the Gazan Palestinian militias cynical use of human shields – is pure, unadulterated bullshite.</div>
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One is therefore left to conclude that he studiously avoids the question Bezengi addressed to him because he is here solely as a propagandist and has no qualms about his own blatant double standards or about being a dishonest interlocutor and a dishonest human being should it serve his hate-Israel propaganda.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarka</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 9:20 pm</td></tr>
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Lbnaz<br />
It’s no good identifying the saddie Martin-Buber impersonator as a warmonger.</div>
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He will not recognise himself in your mirror.</div>
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On the contrary, he thinks of himself as an exceptionally nice, sensitive, humane person, bravely willing to speak truth to power and strictly – unlike all us reps of the Israeli propaganda machine – against the wilful torture and murder of fluffy cute kittens.</div>
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Which, inter alia, is why he adopts the monicker Martin Buber – which is just affected kitsch like fluffy kittens, and nothing to do with the real MB.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>DocMartyn</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 9:22 pm</td></tr>
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Martin Buber,<br />
HAMAS by charter and deed are in contravention of the UN 1947 Convention on genocide.<br />
HAMAS by word and deed are in contravention of the UN Convention on usage of child soldiers.<br />
HAMAS by word and deed are in contravention of the whole of the Geneva Conventions; they explicitly repudiate these, reciprocal, conventions.<br />
HAMAS by word and deed deliberately dress their combatants in civilian cloths, they use Ambulances marked with the Red Crescent, hospitals, schools, civilian residence and other designated ‘Protected Places’ to launch military attacks.<br />
HAMAS are genocidal war-criminals.<br />
You support them.<br />
You are not only a Fuck-Wit, you are an antisemitic Fuck-Wit.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>An X and a mander doth a sandal make</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 9:48 pm</td></tr>
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The reason you labour supporters find the term “institutionally racist” so distasteful when levelled against ‘your’ party is because it’s “your” party.</div>
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It’s exactly the same with ‘racist’, an awful lot of you lefties have been throwing around that accusation, like confetti, for decades, however you become apoplectic when it’s thrown back in your face, which for some of you is not surprising seeing as how unfounded allegations of racism are extremely offensive to those of us who, to quote milliband the embryo “don’t have a racist bone in our body”</div>
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Here’s an thought experiment for you of the “bueatiful people” class.</div>
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Close your eyes tightly, take a deep breath, relax, hum if you wish, clear your minds of any and all errant thoughts (which should be especially easy for you of the bueatiful class) then after 5 minutes read the words of any of the increasing number of these labour Israeli Jew hating bastards eg Slaughter, Livinstone, Corbyn et al, but imagine the words coming from the mouth of a verifiable Jew hating bastard such as Atzmon.</div>
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Or griffin.</div>
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Or Duke.</div>
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Or Goebells.</div>
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Racism doesn’t get a pass in my book just because the racist belongs to a particular party or is a mate of a particular person.</div>
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Ditto Jew hatred, it doesn’t get a pass because the Jew hating bastard is a leftist.</div>
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Or a rightist.</div>
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That’s the difference between people such as myself and some of you leftist types, our level of non tolerance of racism and bigotry isn’t dependent on which side of the political line the racist or bigot decides to stand.</div>
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For instance I don’t excuse the hatred of an Islamic nazi hugging bastard just because he wears a red rosette.</div>
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If it was Boris who had hugged this Islamic nazi he wouldn’t have got a pass from me simply because he wore a blue rosette.</div>
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To excuse or appease racism and bigotry simply because the protagonist is a fellow “believer” is the worst kind of intellectual cowardice as far as I am concerned.</div>
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Get these bastards out of your party.</div>
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If you don’t then please, don’t complain when people start complaining about the vile stench emanating from some of YOUR party members.</div>
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If it flys like a flock of ducks and it looks like a flock of ducks and it quacks like a flock of ducks then believe it or not, odds are, it’s a flock of ducks and not a flock of swans.</div>
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Those of you who wish to be seen as ideological swans shouldn’t allow vultures in ducks clothing to fly along with you in formation, it doesn’t look right, it’s wrong, it’s not how it should be, not if you want to be seen as the elegant aloof graceful pinnacle of the birdbrain world, you lefties may not have noticed but vultures don’t normally have white feathers, although they may aquire a white feather from somewhere.</div>
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You get my drift?</div>
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No matter.</div>
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PS, for those of you of the “Rick from the young ones” section of leftism, It’s not “swanist” or “vultureist” to refer to either aforementioned avain as “birdbrained” it’s simply a fact, nothing more complicated than that, both birds do indeed have “bird brains”, likewise some people really hate Jews and some of these Jew haters are Leftists, simply a fact, it’s not a smear, it’s simply a fact, granted it may be an uncomfortable fact for you lefties to stomach but a fact nevertheless.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lbnaz</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:00 pm</td></tr>
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Sarka you’re absolutely correct about the ‘impersonating moniker doing a disservice to Martin Buber’ not recognizing himself as a war-monger, however anyone cheerleading for the dissolution of the State of Israel to be supplanted for all intent and purpose with an Arab and Islamic state is (again for all intent and purpose) a war-monger.</div>
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Is it any good to throw the emotionally-charged term in his face? Well why not? He merits it.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:04 pm</td></tr>
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Salamander</div>
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Are you an avid birdwatcher by any chance?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lbnaz</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:07 pm</td></tr>
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<i>That’s the difference between people such as myself and some of you leftist types, our level of non tolerance of racism and bigotry isn’t dependent on which side of the political line the racist or bigot decides to stand.</i></div>
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Er, don’t you mean: That’s the difference between people such as myself and some of you leftist types and rightist types…?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>An X and a mander doth a sandal make</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:19 pm</td></tr>
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“avid” would be an exaggeration, but I do like to watch birds, yes.</div>
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Is that wrong?</div>
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By the way vildy, I know I spelt avian “avain”, I was going to wait for your usual response to clarify but frankly I can’t be bothered waiting, so here it is:</div>
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It was a spelling mistake, OK, it wasn’t a manifestation of some obscure mental disorder or the result of an electrolyte imbalance, it was simply a spelling mistake, you see, sometimes the simplilest explanation really is the truth of the matter.</div>
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It’s a bit like the Labour party and it’s Isreali Jew Hatred, sometimes the simplilest explanation is the correct one.</div>
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Get these Jew hating bastards out of your party or live with consequences.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Bezengi</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:20 pm</td></tr>
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@”Martin Buber”,</div>
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Could you please explain the apparent contradiction in your own position highlighted in my post of 4:58pm? Inquiring minds (thanks Lbnaz) want to know.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:26 pm</td></tr>
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No, nothing wrong with being a birdwatcher.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>An X and a mander doth a sandal make</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:29 pm</td></tr>
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“Er, don’t you mean: That’s the difference between people such as myself and some of you leftist types and rightist types…?”</div>
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I stand corrected Lbnaz, you are indeed 100% correct.</div>
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Thank you for highlighting my own prejudice towards a section of society, namely Leftists, you are totally correct, rightist racist and bigots are indeed just as repulsive as leftist ones.</div>
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Once again thank you for highlighting the fact that I can be just as biased as any leftist.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.joanne-gerber.com/" style="color: #fa4949;">Joanne</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:49 pm</td></tr>
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I didn’t know there was an Israeli propaganda machine. I guess that if you want to put a point of view down, you just say that the people supporting that point of view are part of a machine. Works very nicely.<br />
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nevermind</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 10:59 pm</td></tr>
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<i>I know I spelt avian “avain” … It was a spelling mistake, OK</i></div>
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A true orthinologist’s apology!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarka</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 11:03 pm</td></tr>
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Lbnaz<br />
Don’t mistake me. I wasn’t rebuking you for challenging the chap in those terms. You call him a”war-monger”; I call him a purveyor of political kitsch. But the two are not mutually exclusive. Kitsch and brutality often go together.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 11:26 pm</td></tr>
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Lamia</div>
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Righteously skewered thereby.</div>
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I have nothing to argue with you about this – and this seems your ultimate point:</div>
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More accurate to say; Labour is, as an institution, tolerant of the antisemites within it, and it shouldn’t be.</div>
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I agree entirely. Why are you wasting time on me?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>martinbuber</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 11:27 pm</td></tr>
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bezengi:</div>
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<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8245433.stm" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8245433.stm</a></div>
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for example.</div>
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Interesting how I’m attacked in this thread for supporting Hamas when I’ve never written a singe word in support of Hamas. And I’m called an anti-semite to boot, even though all I’ve done is to raise a few questions about the arguments made here in support of Israel. Rather proves my point: say anything critical of Israel here > get accused of anti-semitism.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 11:30 pm</td></tr>
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Thank you, Sarka, for the above; and I think this is superb, from Shmoo-el:</div>
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I think a more conservative accusation would be that Labour is becoming, or has recently become, a party with a systemic Jewish problem.</div>
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Nailed.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 11:33 pm</td></tr>
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Incidentally, I am a twitcher and bird watcher. Nothing wrong with watching birds.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dave</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 11:44 pm</td></tr>
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If MPs are truly concerned about the despicably unjust disparity in weapons between terrorists and a democracy, they should learn to lead and show the way. And, of course, that would be by giving radical Islamists in your country thermonuclear devices since you indeed have them and they do not. I’m sure you would agree this is grotesquely unfair.<br />
How about if we watch and see how that works for you before we try it, eh?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 11:46 pm</td></tr>
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Recall, where I am, I see egrets on water buffaloes pecking; kites and eagles soaring across an urban desert; and an ibis by the water of the Nile.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 12:03 am</td></tr>
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I am intrigued that the worn-out words of a Labour-in-opposition front bencher should surprise anybody:</div>
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If you were a New Labour MP ten years ago you knew you were probably where the majority of your constituents were politically.</div>
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But you spent your life in very different company – with embittered, unrepresentative activists constantly demanding you “take a stand” on their pet obsessions.</div>
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Losing touch with the punters being, after all, the shortest way to a fall.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lbnaz</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 12:10 am</td></tr>
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Re: Impersonating Buber’s outdated BBC/Btselem Press Release link:</div>
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<a href="http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=154982" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=154982</a></div>
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And why is the BBC/Btselem Press Release info outdated?</div>
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Because after Btselem released its figures the Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hamad told the Al-Hayat newspaper that Hamas lost between 600 and 700 fighters in Operation Cast Lead, thus confirming exactly what the IDF reported all along and rendering Btselem’s casualty figures listed in Impersonating Buber’s link outdated and inaccurate.</div>
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Undoubtedly Impersonating Buber was well aware that Hamas’ Interior Minister admitted in a November 2010 interview that between 600 and 700 Palestinian combatants were killed during Cast Lead but chose instead to post a link to an outdated BBC/Btselem Press Release (Sept. 9, 2009) which did not take this salient info into account.</div>
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Dishonest on Impersonating Buber’s part? Does a bear shit in the woods? Is the Pope Catholic? etc., etc.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lbnaz</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 12:19 am</td></tr>
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@ Sarka (11:03 pm):</div>
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I concur: kitsch and brutality do often go hand in hand.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 12:24 am</td></tr>
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Lbnaz</div>
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and more often than not.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lbnaz</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 12:40 am</td></tr>
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<i>and more often than not.</i></div>
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And Milan Kundera agrees: In “totalitarian kitsch, all answers are given in advance and preclude any questions.” (Milan Kundera, ‘The Incredible Lightness of Being’, p. 254)</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 12:47 am</td></tr>
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I don’t usually respond to the lunatic, but I have to correct one thing he implied about me specifically: that I frequently correct his — and presumably other — spelling mistakes.</div>
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This is categorically false. I am an editor, and hence get paid to correct spelling and other errors. I do NOT do it in my spare time or if I am not paid to do it (unless I volunteer my services, of course). Also, as an editor, spelling mistakes and typos have never been a major priority of mine; they’re important to correct, of course, but I”m much more interested in ensuring that the writer expresses the meaning of what s/he was trying to say in as clear and succinct a way possible. In other words, substance over form. To repeat, I do NOT correct spelling errors on HP, nor do I ever call out other people’s spelling mistakes.</div>
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But when they talk shit, I respond.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 1:02 am</td></tr>
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Buber says he’s been called an anti-semite here. Now I don’t have time to read every post, but a quick scan didn’t find anyone calling him that. Stupid, yes. Confused, certainly. Anti-semitic, no.</div>
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And even if one or two of our more excitable types did call him an anti-semite, they’re hardly representative of HP, never mind the larger pro-Israel community out there.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 1:04 am</td></tr>
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Incidentally, when you see a person of supposed intelligence and unquestionable influence/stature like a front-bench critic talking such rubbish, which flies in the face of logic, history and common sense, you have to seriously question his motivations. I don’t know if he’s anti-semitic or not, but he’s certainly indifferent to the fate of Israel and, by extension, the Jewish people. So if he’s erroneously referred to as an anti-semite by some, it’s really no sweat of my back.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>An X and a mander doth a sandal make</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 1:49 am</td></tr>
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Sorry vildy, I must have been mixing you up with someone else, maybe Ezra.</div>
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There are so many of you ‘lefties but not lefties’ around here I continually get you all mixed up.</div>
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Again I apologize for my vilifying and slanderous slur on your blogging character.</div>
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PS you’re not as boring as Ezra, what I mean is that I don’t actually fall asleep while reading your comments (which can be surprisingly cogent on occassion) as I have often done reading Ezra’s.</div>
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Ho hum.</div>
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Have to go, my afternoon list is biiiiiiiiiig.</div>
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See ya.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>An X and a mander doth a sandal make</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 1:49 am</td></tr>
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Oh dear, will you lot ever learn.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #fa4949;">Brownie</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 1:53 am</td></tr>
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Really very funny to see Doc getting all ‘rules of war’ on our asses on this thread, yet on the NI thread he’s happy to deliberately misrepresent the level of British state agent collusion with loyalist terrorists and indeed smear a murdered Catholic solicitor shot 14 times in front of his family.</div>
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If holding parties to “different standards” is the measure of a racist (as seems to have been established during the course of this discussion), then Doc is clearly an anti-Catholic bigot.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lamia</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 2:24 am</td></tr>
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@ Abu Faris,</div>
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Sorry, I wasn’t so much arguing with you as picking up and adding my thoughts on your exchange with Sarah and others. I just happened to address you because I chose your quote as my point in.</div>
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I agree “institutionally racist” is misleading and often not quite right – the definition as used has always been too broad. Getting people to pay attention to when they’re letting their colleagues’ bigotry slide by is a different matter to challenging any real or imagined bigotry of their own, because they can be genuinely not guilty of the latter, while still letting the former happen. So another term is probably more useful, even if it’s been used here in accordance with MacPherson’s formulations, which were in my view well-meaning but in some respects misguided and faulty.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lamia</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 2:25 am</td></tr>
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(to clarify, the above is again me just thinking aloud, not arguing with you, Abu Faris).</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Bezengi</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 7:20 am</td></tr>
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@”Martin Buber”</div>
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Please, stay focused on the topic. The topic raised by you was unfair accusation of double standards when applied to Israel and, immediately, the accusation of Israel of disproportional civilian deaths in urban warfare.</div>
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Even if one believes the claims in the link you posted, the civilian deaths in Gaza operation were ~ 50%. Please, provide data from any other army in similar circumstances. You must have plenty of recent examples: UK and US in Iraq, NATO in Libya and in Serbia etc etc. I won’t even mention Russians in Chechnya.</div>
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So far I have not accused you of anything apart from having contradictions in your own statements.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 7:34 am</td></tr>
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<i>The “problem” with a mass party of the working class is that it embraces all the thoughts of that “class”: including all its vile loathings and hatreds.</i></div>
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The Labour party’s antisemitism doesn’t come from the working class. Livingstone is not working class. Ditto Corbyn. Ditto Slaughter. Ditto the union bosses. Ditto the people running the Guardian.<br />
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Berthold</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 7:54 am</td></tr>
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Harvey<br />29 April 2012, 3:53 pm</div>
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I would be interesting to find out the ratio of civilians to terrorists and their handlers in that total figure of Palestinians killed .<br />Perhaps and I’m order to even things up a bit , Israel should have responded by using the same primitive sort of weaponry that the Palestinians use . Rocket for rocket , mortar for mortar . 10,000 and counting. Slaughter would not be able to quibble with the slaughter on that basis .</div>
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See that alone, in itself, is so daft, so lame. Harvey – it’s not about how bollocking labour sees Israel, it’s about what’s good for Israel. Always keep that in mind, “mate”.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>martinbuber</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 8:14 am</td></tr>
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vildechaye: Actually, “docmartyn” said the following about me:</div>
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“HAMAS are genocidal war-criminals.<br />You support them.<br />You are not only a Fuck-Wit, you are an antisemitic Fuck-Wit.”</div>
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Which is pretty standard for Harry’s Place …. never mind that I’ve never written a word in support of Hamas!</div>
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Bezengi: well I like the fact that you help yourself to the assumption that I believe that all the operations you list were conducted within permissible limits. Even those that were (Serbia for example) were conducted in ways that exposed civilians more than they should have. With Israel, it isn’t just Cast Lead (thought that’s one example) but also all the wars against Lebanon and the ongoing strikes in Gaza and the “targetted assassinations” that also kill everyone else in the vicinity. Of course Israel is no worse in this respect than Obama with his drone attacks (in fact maybe a bit better even) but that doesn’t make Israel OK. Is Israel reckless wrt Palestinian non-combatant lives. Yes, certainly. More reckless than the US wrt Iraqi lives? Probably not. But so what?</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 8:15 am</td></tr>
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Sorry, last post was a bit mangled: sentence should read “Even those that were justified (Serbia for example) were conducted in ways that exposed civilians more than they should have. “</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 8:16 am</td></tr>
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(and my comment on a comment refers to something in the moderation queue.)</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Barry Meislin</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 8:46 am</td></tr>
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MB,</div>
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Don’t you find it rather amusing (though perhaps a better word may be substituted) when a people who glorifies suicide bombings of civilians, who exalts those suicide bombers, who memorializes those suicide bombers in monuments, in street names, in national ceremonies (and who knows, maybe in youth centres, perhaps even in inter-faith associations)—a people whose goal it is to destroy or otherwise erase the Zionist Entity—complains so vociferously about war crimes.</div>
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(Together with all those fine people who support the aspirations of this desperately unfortunate people—suffering beyond all that is humanly possible because they have not yet, alas, been able to fulfil their simple goal.)</div>
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I find it spectacularly funny.</div>
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To be sure, the Palestinians, after having embraced it so fondly, so resolutely, so enthusiastically, have renounced suicide bombing (though—to be absolutely sure—the reason for their having renounced it is because as a tactic, it proved, at the end of the day, so ineffective, so counter-productive).</div>
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Which is pretty humourous, too, if you ask me. Of course, one’s mileage may vary….</div>
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The suicide bombing campaign did, on the other hand—and one must be thankful for it—kill maim and injure (physically and emotionally) a whole lot of Israelis (who no doubt deserved it); and it remains an inspiration to progressive moralists around the globe, including, as it happens, one of London’s current mayoral candidates (for the people, of the people, etc., etc…).</div>
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But please, keep on spreading that delightful, nutritious night soil, thickly, deeply, far and wide; elevating all of us with your keen insights and piercing ethical sense; keep on speaking “truth to power”—even where it’s not the truth (but then it doesn’t have to be, does it?, as long as it fits the sacred narrative)—and expressing so limpidly (and so consistently) the internal contradictions of your position (which of course are not contradictions, as long as they fit the sacred narrative, etc., etc.).</div>
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Please. Don’t stop. Ever. Remember! Truth to Power!!</div>
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File under: I-Pow</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Anat</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 9:07 am</td></tr>
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Barry, the only problem I see with your post is that you forgot to mention that the suicide bombers haven’t killed enough Jews. It would be so much easier if only those Jews were aggregated in cattle cars, or lined up in front of trenches. Suicide bombing is like firing a few firecrackers at civilian centers, sort of hit-or-miss. And those darned Jews keep building shelters and safe rooms and sounding sirens. They won’t just stand still and take it like good Jews.</div>
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If only people like this Slaughter sicko would tell us how many dead Jews would make him happy. How many more Jewish babies need to be decapitated before the few who are left are deemed fit to live?</div>
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And “Martin Buber,” you may not be an anti-Semite, but you sure play one on tv.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>MArk2</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 9:39 am</td></tr>
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“MArk2: “Of course if HP has given up on fighting these causes on the left then let us know and those of us who havn’t will know not to waste our time and perhaps look elsewhere.”</div>
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So you are only interested in talking about a subject if everyone agrees with you?</div>
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Exchanging ideas is not your bag? Just my party right or wrong.”</div>
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I don’t think you see this site as I do. So far as I am concerned I come here to be among friends and get info not avialable elsewhere. I know we get trolls and the occasional idiot who impersonates respected Jewsih philosphers, but basically it is a resource. I also far more importantly in my view, visit leftist sites where I argue Israel’s case and against anti Semitism (the latter when my stomach is strong enough to take some of the shit that is thrown about there). To a degree I rely on HP for accurate info. If it is wrong and I go in and say “Slaughter says X about Jews” and he has not done so I end up with egg on my face and in the febrile atmosphere of such blogs etc that could be enough to influence people’s perception of my argument to my detrimant and that of the case I am arguing. This much should be obvious to anyone with half a brain cell.</div>
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Let me ask you a question. What do you think is more important: that HP serves as a kind of club for people who have given up on the left (ably assisted I suspect, by not a few closet tories) to masturbate each other’s egos, OR that it be a home for those who take to fight TO the left and believe that doing so is what matters?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Bezengi</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 9:42 am</td></tr>
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“Martin Buber”</div>
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<i>It is basically BS, though, to claim that Israeli attacks with such a high proportion of non-combatant casualties are discriminate</i></div>
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and</div>
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<i>… well I like the fact that you help yourself to the assumption that I believe that all the operations you list were conducted within permissible limits. Even those that were (Serbia for example) were conducted in ways that exposed civilians more than they should have…Of course Israel is no worse in this respect than Obama with his drone attacks (in fact maybe a bit better even) but that doesn’t make Israel OK.</i></div>
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So if, by your own admission, Israel is no worse than other enlightened nations in its warfare, how exactly have you arrived to the conclusion of disproportionate number of non-combatant casualties in Israeli actions? What is your reference point?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Barry Meislin</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 9:58 am</td></tr>
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Hmmm, yes. Apologies.</div>
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But don’t despair! For Hamas and Islamic Jihad (and their merry cohorts), as well as Hezbullah and Iran—and one may presume Syria, once the current, um, unpleasantness, has settled down, so that “the Lion” of Damascus can focus once again on the intrepid resistance to Zionism (and also the regaining of Syria’s rightful place at whatever UN Human Rights/Women’s Rights Org. that waits patiently, eagerly for Syria’s resuming its inspiring presence)—are working on correcting the utterly unjust discrepancy between Arab and Israeli body counts.</div>
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Indeed, up until now, their missiles have not been terribly lucky—sowing terror, yes, but not killing nearly enough people, at least not as far as they are concerned, or, it seems, the Honourable Mr. Slaughter.</div>
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Still, their luck may well change, to the joy of all right-thinking people.</div>
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File under: Stay tuned, kiddies!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>zkharya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 2:28 pm</td></tr>
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I’d just like to observe that it is thanks to Joseph W that we have articles like this from Martin Bright in the JC.</div>
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<a href="http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/66894/corbyn-wont-back-away-salah" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/66894/corbyn-wont-back-away-salah</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>zkharya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 2:32 pm</td></tr>
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‘Which is pretty standard for Harry’s Place …. never mind that I’ve never written a word in support of Hamas!’</div>
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One doesn’t even have to say a word in order to support them. One could support them by supporting groups that support them, for instance. Or refusing to distance oneself from such groups as do.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Disillusioned Lurker</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 2:57 pm</td></tr>
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Peter, I thought one thing everybody knew about Ken is that his parents *were* working class – working class Tories, no less.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 4:08 pm</td></tr>
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Martin Buber: Yeah, ok. One guy. So from that, you extrapolate to “Rather proves my point: say anything critical of Israel here > get accused of anti-semitism.” Rather weak and pathetic, wouldn’t you agree? In fact, the vast majority of commenters have taken pains NOT to call you anti-semitic, but rather to attack your position on its merits (or lack thereof). Which you obviously can’t handle.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>JOHN p REID</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 4:42 pm</td></tr>
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In 1999 Trevor Philips said Labour was Institutionally racist a it Automatically assumes Black people vote labour , the Police were accused of being Institutionally racist as they made assumptions About black people too.</div>
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In 2007 the “Met” police changed the term Of Multiple rape from “gang” rape to “group”, the Guardian and A feminist group were outraged As it made the Term seem less harsh, Arguing that It was Offensive to Gangs as gang isn’t Necessarily A bad ting, A gang can be a group of decent people.</div>
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On Stephen Lawrence Murder the Police assumed on finding Lawrence and Dwayne brooks that they were In A gang that His parents were Uneducated Working class people associated with the low level of Life</div>
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Now Look At Labour, they Assume that Black people are part of that Gang “That they automatically support labour” In I recall 2008 a paid organiser,Knocking On black peoples doors they weren’t in And the paid organiser said “they’re Black they’re not in I’ll assume they vote Labour”</div>
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the McPherson said that there was Stereotype s (Decide to Pre-Judge) Prejudice and Assumption about Black people that they were uneducated but we assume when they came here to drive buses, Be Nurses, Sweep rubbish that they were still the working class Associated with Labour ,Obivously Labour sends out Letters to people they feel Are BAME warning them “the Tories are anti Trade Unions’ they make the rich ‘richer’ Vote for us instead,</div>
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We assume All Black people still vote Labour as they recall the Toriers and the Hostility that enoch powell showed Immigrants and are bigotted) or words to that effect, Would we ever knok on the door OF a known trade unioist In A council home ,In A working class area, tehy weren’t and Assume that becuase of this that they automatically voted Labour.</div>
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Or In the Past we’ve signalled Out BAME voters reminded them that Labour had A good record on Equality in the past and suggested the Tories hadn’t about the possibility of English Democrats or UKIP,who they consider to be (wrongly)racist, Did a lot in the past and did the remedial jobs,and that Black people wouldn’t vote Tory, compare that to the Police assuming that after the Death of Daminola Taylor the locals wouldn’t help the police ,as there was a code of silence.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 5:12 pm</td></tr>
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RE: Other members of the democratic club (and their citizens) have every right to complain when one of their number engages in serious human rights violations.</div>
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But they don’t, do they? Has Slaughter made a similar speech in defence of Afghans and Iraqis mowed down by U.S. forces? Didn’t think so. If Israel were held to the same standard as other democratic countries, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. The problem is, the microscope that is focused on Israel’s actions barely has the time to look at human rights violations by other countries, including democratic ones.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>hasan p</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 11:58 pm</td></tr>
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JOHN p REID, I agree with much of what you say, but the evidence from Lord Ashcroft’s poll does appear to bear out that ethnic minorities do overwhelmingly support Labour. In fact, I remember that polling around the general election in 1997 showed that Asian voters, in particular, were more likely to vote Conservative than they are today. What the difference is between a discernable trend and hard data is not easy to judge.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>John p Reid</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 1 May 2012, 12:17 pm</td></tr>
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I forgot to point out that it was right for the Police to change the term gang rape (Neil And Christine hamilton were comletely inncoent and Cleared) but even when they were accsued they wouldn’t have been called part of A gang rape</div>
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</div>levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-8368373866721835032012-04-29T12:53:00.001+01:002012-05-02T17:39:05.040+01:00HP - Palestine Telegraph: Vote Ken Livingstone. UPDATED… now also backed by the formerly Anti-Livingstone Jews<br />
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<a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2012/04/26/palestine-telegraph-vote-ken-livingstone/" rel="bookmark" style="color: #444444; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 5px; text-decoration: none;" title="Palestine Telegraph: Vote Ken Livingstone. UPDATED… now also backed by the formerly Anti-Livingstone Jews">Palestine Telegraph: Vote Ken Livingstone. UPDATED… now also backed by the formerly Anti-Livingstone Jews</a></h2>
<div class="byline" style="background-color: white; color: #303030; font-family: Georgia, Palatino, 'Book Antiqua', 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; text-align: center;">
<span class="author" style="font-weight: bold;">Alan A</span>, April 26th 2012, 9:30 am</div>
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While more and more senior Labour backers express their horror at the prospect of Ken Livingstone’s victory in the forthcoming mayoral elections – <a href="http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/andrewgilligan/100153130/ken-livingstone-dissed-by-yet-another-labour-heavyweight/" style="color: #fa4949;">Lord Winston</a> is the latest – extremists and hatemongers have come out in force for the man.<br />
<br /></div>
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Here’s Jeremy “<a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2012/04/24/jeremy-corbyn-and-the-blood-libel-sheikh/" style="color: #fa4949;">Inquiry into Jewish Influence</a>” Corbyn in the <a href="http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/117983" style="color: #fa4949;">Morning Star</a>– the Stalinist rag – and the antisemitic and conspiracist <a href="http://www.paltelegraph.com/world/uk-news/10550-lets-get-the-vote-out-for-ken.html" style="color: #fa4949;">Palestine Telegraph</a> urging extremists to “get the vote out for Ken”.</div>
<div style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px;">
Let’s <a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2011/11/14/sameh-habeeb-and-labour/" style="color: #fa4949;">recap</a> a few episodes from the record of Sameh Habeeb’s paper:<br />
<br /></div>
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- <a href="http://www.paltelegraph.com/columnists/sameh-a-habeeb/10333-the-wandering-who-an-attempt-to-clear-the-dust.html" style="color: #fa4949;">Praising</a> Gilad Atzmon’s “courageous” new book and ludicrously comparing Atzmon to Salman Rushdie.</div>
<div style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px;">
- Publishing an antisemitic video by former KKK grand wizard <a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2010/04/21/the-palestine-telegraph-and-david-duke/" style="color: #fa4949;">David Duke</a>. This proved too much even for Jenny Tonge, who <a href="http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/30880/tonge-quits-palestine-telegraph-over-kkk-video" style="color: #fa4949;">resigned</a> as a patron of the <em>Palestine Telegraph</em>.</div>
<div style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px;">
<br />
- Publishing a ridiculous story about Israelis <a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2010/02/05/the-haiti-libel/" style="color: #fa4949;">stealing organs</a> in Haiti after the earthquake.</div>
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<br />
- More organ theft <a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2009/12/06/the-palestine-telegraph-speaking-troof-to-power/" style="color: #fa4949;">poison pieces</a> on Ukraine and Israel.</div>
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<br />
- Running an article claiming that World Wars 1 and 2 were both <a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2010/02/16/there-must-be-a-limit/" style="color: #fa4949;">Jewish plots</a>.</div>
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<br />
- Promotion of Holocaust denier <a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2010/08/13/fredrick-toben-in-the-palestine-telegraph/" style="color: #fa4949;">Fredrick Toben</a>.</div>
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<br />
- Running a <a href="http://www.paltelegraph.com/opinions/editorials/9167-which-is-more-evil-al-qaeda-or-israel.html" style="color: #fa4949;">piece</a> by the racist Khalid <a href="http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/michaelweiss/100087135/amnesty-international-memo-and-the-palestinian-writer-who-calls-jews-kikes/" style="color: #fa4949;">“Kikes”</a> Amayreh where he argues the USA is far more evil than Osama Bin Laden.</div>
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<br />
- Marking Holocaust Memorial Day by publishing a revolting Israelis-are-Nazis <a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2010/01/27/sameh-habeeb%E2%80%99s-holocaust-memorial-day/" style="color: #fa4949;">screed</a> by Gilad Atzmon.</div>
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<br />
- Threatening <a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2009/11/15/pro-hamas-campaigners-norman-frankstineine-is-jew/" style="color: #fa4949;">legal action</a> against “Nothing British About the BNP” when it criticised Habeeb for his role in inviting the fascist Jobbik MEP Krisztina Morvai to a London conference of the PRC.</div>
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<br />
- Publishing another Israelis-are-Nazis <a href="http://www.paltelegraph.com/opinions/editorials/8274-palestine-looks-abroad-for-rational-understanding.html" style="color: #fa4949;">slur</a> and an absurd terrorism denial<a href="http://www.paltelegraph.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7565:Images-The-Militant-West&catid=115:Mahboob-A-Khawaja&Itemid=214" style="color: #fa4949;">piece</a> by Mahboob Khawaja.<br />
<br />
No wonder Khawaja engages in terrorism denial: his own son, Mohammed Momin Khawaja, was <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6152440.stm" style="color: #fa4949;">convicted</a>in 2009 of taking part in the UK fertiliser bomb plot.</div>
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<br />
So, an obvious outlet for Jeremy Corbyn MP: a man wholly unchallenged by the Labour Party, who will not speak out against his hateful politics and alliances.</div>
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<br />
Meanwhile, the clowns of iEngage, who managed shamefully to undermine the proposed (but now moribund) Parliamentary Committee on Islamophobia by attempting to get themselves appointed to the secretariat, despite their links to extremist Islamist political parties and record of incitement against Muslim liberals, have produced a website: <a href="http://www.getoutandvote.info/" style="color: #fa4949;">GetOutAndVote.info</a>.</div>
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<br />
Its <a href="http://www.getoutandvote.info/get-ken-coalition/" style="color: #fa4949;">top story</a> directs Muslim voters to Owen Jones’ attack on Ken Livingstone’s critics.</div>
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They have also produced a video featuring the hate preacher, Haitham al Haddad:<br />
<br /></div>
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<object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0" height="350" width="425"><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rG_XaPXF0vQ"></object></div>
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<br />
That’s the Ken Livingstone fan base, folks!</div>
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<strong><em><br /></em></strong><br />
<strong><em>UPDATE</em></strong></div>
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<br />
Of course, it goes without saying… the formerly anti-Livingstone Jewish Labour activists <a href="http://jewishlabouractivists.blogspot.co.uk/" style="color: #fa4949;">have now backed this wanker</a>.</div>
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<strong>With our eyes open and breathing deeply maybe with a sigh or two, the time has come to endorse Ken Livingstone for Mayor of London…</strong></div>
<div style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px;">
<strong></strong>Andrew Gilbert, Neil Nerva, Judith Bara, Jem Stein and Rabbi Danny Rich (all in a personal capacity)</div>
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Why have they done this?</div>
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<br />
Simple. Because they think – probably correctly – that Ken Livingstone will win this election. If they don’t say this, then there will be no Jews at all who can talk to the Mayor of London about issues such as community safety, and the like.</div>
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<br />
So, a little bit like the leaders of the Iranian Jewish Community, they have at last pledged loyalty.</div>
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When Ken Livingstone wins this election, London will have taken a <a href="http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/96146/swedens-damn-jew-problem/" style="color: #fa4949;">step closer to Malmo</a>.<br />
<br />
<br />
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>peterthehungarian</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 9:38 am</td></tr>
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<i>That’s the Ken Livingstone fan base, folks!</i></div>
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You forgot to add M. Ezra and G. MacMillan.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Cyclefree</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 10:16 am</td></tr>
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Which is why it is essential that those of us who don’t want this sort of fascistic sub-culture and sectarian politics to spread in the UK even further than it has vote to ensure Ken does not get in.</div>
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I really fear for our country if this sort of politics succeeds. Forget pasty taxes and the rest. Fundamental issues about free speech / taking a stand for equality for women and gays and against anti-semitism etc are far more important.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>just looking</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 10:17 am</td></tr>
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Can’t wait for Michael Ezra’s demented deflections excusing his revolting choice and his siding with this kind of human scum. His continuous and very vocal KL-endorsement on Facebook, Twitter, HP and real life, has become so pathetic and desperate, he is fair game, as far as I’m concerned: Michael Ezra, you’re a fucking disgrace!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>not my real name</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 10:35 am</td></tr>
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Although I wholeheartedly support this post I am not 100% sure about putting “inquiry into Jewish influence” in quotes. But – perhaps I’ve just been lib-conned.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #fa4949;">Alan A</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 10:39 am</td></tr>
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Read the underlying post. It is very clear what Corbyn was backing, and he is now trying to weasel out of it.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Shmoo-El</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 10:43 am</td></tr>
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No worries. Livingstone doesn’t actually believe that Israelis harvested organs in Haiti. Similarly, Livingstone himself would never, ever smash a window at a synagogue or make a casual insult towards someone wearing a yarmulke (<i>ed. actually maybe he would do this second thing</i>).</div>
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Livingstone just actively seeks support among those who do. And the trains will run on time.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Shmoo-El</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 10:55 am</td></tr>
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What’s interesting, as an academic that travels to Europe occasionally for conferences, is how effective Germany’s final solution was. There just are very few Jews left at any of the European universities in countries where the Nazis succeeded. So how sad it is to see such an explicit partnership between Islam and the Left, across Europe, to make the rest of the continent uncomfortable for Jews *while* simultaneously attempting to delegitimize the Jewish homeland. It is so tragic, unjust, and heartbreaking that really its becoming almost impossible to continue paying attention. At least as an American, I can say to myself, “It couldn’t happen here” but who knows…</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Longsinceleft</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 11:27 am</td></tr>
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“When Ken Livingstone wins this election, Britain will have taken a step closer to Malmo.”</div>
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No, Britain won’t be. London will. Stop trying to drag the rest of the country into this, nobody outside that primitive, backward dump has a vote in this election, so stop trying to smear the British with London’s failings.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #fa4949;">Alan A</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 11:31 am</td></tr>
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Sorry, London. Will change.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nevermind</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 11:45 am</td></tr>
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<i>And the trains will run on time.</i></div>
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But of course. This is crucial.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada" style="color: #fa4949;">Judy</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 11:47 am</td></tr>
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Those signatories have <b>never</b> been anti-Livingstone in the sense of advocating not voting for him.</div>
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In the contrary, it appears from what Livingstone said at the London Jewish Forum meeting on Tuesday that it was “Neil” who wrote the letter to Ed Miliband urging him to take action to ensure that Livingstone was helped to de-toxify himself because he could still be presented as a candidate with so much to offer the Jewish community.</div>
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I presume the Neil in question is Neil Nerva. None of them played any part in leaking the letter to the Jewish community which played such a part in revealing Livingstone’s Jews=zionists=Israelis=bad news attitudes, and his dismissive attitude towards Jewish community concerns about him.</div>
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If they’d had their way, Livingstone would have agreed to present his propaganda view of himself as a friend to the Jewish community without any account of that meeting (subject to “Chatham House rules”=secrecy having seen the light of day. They were appalled when Martin Bright let the cat out of the bag in the Jewish Chronicle.</div>
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They reveal themselves now to be machine politicians playing machine politics whilst convincing themselves that it’s for the benefit of the Jewish community.</div>
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Who can take their urging seriously? Maybe a few of the Labour-voting faithful who want to feel better about voting for Livingstone?</div>
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Andrew Gilbert is a former chair of the Reform Synagogues of Great Britain. I’m an orthodox Jew, but I’m glad for their sake that he’s no longer in that position. As for Rabbi Rich of the Liberal Jewish movement, I wonder if other Liberal Jews will feel as I do that this shabby and unprincipled but if machine politics besmirches the standing of the Liberal Jewish rabbinate?</div>
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I salute Jonathan Freedland, whom I’ve so often mocked and criticized before, most of all for his 2008 advocacy of voting for Livingstone, for being willing to act with integrity and refuse to vote for Livingstone 2012 on the basis of what he heard at the same meeting as these betrayers of Labour’s ideals.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>j.r.</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 11:55 am</td></tr>
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As Shmoo-EL says at 10.43.<br />
Maybe it requires Livingstone’s re-election for more people to make the connection between his soft racism and sexism – fantasising about rich jews who won’t vote for him, rich gays having their penises cut off – and the hard racism and sexism of the people that his calculated bigotry is designed to appeal to.</div>
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Livingstone and Galloway are opportunistic organisms that have evolved to live and breath in polluted waters where there is a niche for creatures with their obvious drawbacks when it comes to normal political life – egomania, alcoholism etc.</div>
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Regarding the labour party. Should they expel racists? Or is that a step too far in terms of curtailing free speech? It is sad that labour is still a tainted organisation but I don’t know if expelling the likes of Livingstone and Corbyn is a simple choice.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>cjcjc</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 11:57 am</td></tr>
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I am still hoping that the bookies are right.<br />
Current odds being BJ 1.25 KL 3.75 (4/1 on and 11/4 in old money) so you could put a small wager on the latter which would at least allow you to drown your sorrows.<br />
(Before the alcohol ban comes into force — haha, only kidding! Fortunately London is too big to turn into Malmo. E1 and E2 however…)</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.amata.es/" style="color: #fa4949;">jan frank</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 11:59 am</td></tr>
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@ Shmoo-El</div>
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I don’t have an extensive knowledge of academic life in Europe, but I looked up a few figures concerning Jews in Holland,</div>
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Before the War, there were approx. 140.000 Jews in Holland in a general population of about 8.7 million. That’s very roughly 1.6%. Most of them were very poor people (well, at least my family was) and few of them would have gone to University.</div>
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In 2012 there are about 52,000 Dutch Jews and about 9,000 Israelis living in Holland. That’s, very roughly, 0.4% or about one quarter of the proportion before the War. Yes, quite a difference.</div>
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But do you think that the untrained observer would really notice the difference between 1.6% before the war and 0.4% after the war of the academic crowd being Jewish?</div>
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It may be that Jewish people (who traditionally revere all forms of learning) are disproportionally represented at American universities which colours your observation. Yes, a lot of Jews in Europe were murdered, but there’s still a lot left – and they were never all that large a percentage in any European country before the war,</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Jonny J</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 12:28 pm</td></tr>
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Danny Rich is a self-promoting little prick.</div>
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This is the guy who shares a platform with Israel hater Deborah Falk. This is the guy who is “too busy” to discuss war in Gaza. This is the guy who constantly attacks and undermines Israel.</div>
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He has helped make LIberal Judaism a joke…. a great pity because is could have much to offer.</div>
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Every time I see his fat face I feel physically ill. A gift to anti-Semites everywhere.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Ezra</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 12:30 pm</td></tr>
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Just looking,</div>
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One day you might pluck up courage to put your name to your cowardly attack on me.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Shmoo-El</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 12:33 pm</td></tr>
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jan:</div>
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<i>It may be that Jewish people (who traditionally revere all forms of learning) are disproportionally represented at American universities which colours your observation</i></div>
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This may be true. I don’t know much about academic life in Europe either to be honest, my comment was clearly anecdotal. But my understanding is that Jews were disproportionately represented at German and Eastern European Universities before WW2. When I go to these places now, there are none. It is sad that the Nazis “won” in this respect.</div>
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The fact that Jews are currently over represented in the US may be because many survivors moved here, and generally, the US has given more opportunities to Jews in terms of upward mobility. There are probably lots of other more interesting reasons. (On the other hand, even elite American universities had Jewish quotas until the 50s or so.)</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://alfanalf.blogspot.com/" style="color: #fa4949;">No Good Boyo</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 12:41 pm</td></tr>
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There are a very few robustly Zionist Liberal rabbis, but Liberal Judaism overall is hamstrung by the likes of Danny Rich and the egregious David Goldberg. The kindest thing you can say is that they are clueless – a sad position for “teachers” to be in.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Flaming Fairy</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 12:46 pm</td></tr>
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<i>But of course. This is crucial.</i></div>
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Not ALL of them, only the Jubilee Line! Apparently, it whizzed Ezra into the West End in a nanosecond when Ken was mayor. The very moment Boris was voted in, it ground to a halt and hasn’t worked properly since.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>just looking</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 12:51 pm</td></tr>
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Michael Ezra, what for? Because you call me a coward? You can call me anything you like. Besides, it’s much more fun this way. Just think of me as the prototype St John’s Wood High street/ Belsize Park/ Hampstead kinda guy who speaks for everybody when he insults you!<br />
And, don’t play the victim, you attack people all the fucking time, both in the real and the virtual world, and for much less valid reasons, such as swearing or reading fiction.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lynne T</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 12:53 pm</td></tr>
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Shmoo-El<br />
26 April 2012, 10:55 am</div>
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My fear is that, such Jewish academics as there may be in countries formerly occupied by the Nazis (and that would include France, would it no?), are the likes of Shlomo “the Invention of the Jewish People” Sand.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>amie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 12:57 pm</td></tr>
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And the trains will run on time.</div>
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No apparently it is not the Jubilee line which is key, but the 210 bus. This declaration is the most depressingly barrel scraping exercise I have ever read.<br />
It was Ken, who invested in Simcha in the Square.. We credit Ken for his refusal to sit on a platform with the BNP candidate..On Israel, Ken’s comments are not always beyond the pale…</div>
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Whoopee.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Ezra</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 1:13 pm</td></tr>
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just looking,</div>
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I suspect I know a lot more people in “St John’s Wood High street/ Belsize Park/ Hampstead” than you will ever know. And when you insult me, you certainly don’t speak for everyone.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Ezra</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 1:18 pm</td></tr>
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Oh, and I have never insulted people for reading fiction, never in the real world, or in the virtual world. It would be a bit odd of me to do so as those that know me are aware that I have been reading a reasonable amount of fiction of late.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>cjcjc</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 1:24 pm</td></tr>
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“I suspect I know a lot more people in “St John’s Wood High street/ Belsize Park/ Hampstead” than you will ever know.”</div>
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There you go.</div>
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Mr Ezra just can’t help himself, can he?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>just looking</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 1:26 pm</td></tr>
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Aww, you are so delusional, it’d be almost endearing if it weren’t so tragic.<br />
You go around announcing loudly and proudly your allegiance to Red Ken, while at the same time preaching about the ‘evils’ of communism. You treat people with with contempt and condescension while demanding respect and acceptance. No matter how many people you know, nobody takes you seriously anymore.<br />
You’ve crossed the rubicon mate!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Ezra</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 1:29 pm</td></tr>
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just looking,</div>
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I am certainly right to treat you with contempt, as you are clearly a moron.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>sackcloth and ashes</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 1:36 pm</td></tr>
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Tom Watson has told Labour voters to ‘hold their noses, vote for Ken’:</div>
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<a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/04/26/tom-watson-hold-nose-vote-ken_n_1454669.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/04/26/tom-watson-hold-nose-vote-ken_n_1454669.html</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.amata.es/" style="color: #fa4949;">jan frank</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 1:46 pm</td></tr>
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@ Lynne T</div>
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The Jewish academics I know who live in Europe are mainly people who see themselves either as Europeans who happen to have Jewish ancestors (i.e. they see themselves as members of the human race) or as part of a Yiddish culture (i.e. not Israeli, but part of a typically European mish-mash/mish-mosh). They don’t reject Israel, they don’t adore Israel. Personally, as a (mainly) Ashekenazi Jew, I find Israelis weird. Not bad, not good, just a little bit different.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada" style="color: #fa4949;">Judy</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 1:56 pm</td></tr>
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Yeah, well maybe Gilbert and his three cosignatories aren’t at all confident that Livingstone’s going to win, but are responding to the three line whip from Labour’s election attack dog Tom<br />
Watson to put the message out to their own side to Hold Your Nose & vote for Livingstone.</div>
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According to <a href="http://order-order.com/2012/04/26/watson-says-hold-your-nose-for-ken/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">this blog, </a>this is all about a panic response from so many Labour voters refusing to endorse Livingstone.</div>
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Four signatories isn’t much for that sort of letter, is it? My understanding is that six people signed the original letter. Though I’m still expecting an AsAJew Luvvies for Ken to appear prominently any day now.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Disillusioned Lurker</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 2:05 pm</td></tr>
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“This blog” being Paul Staines. Nuff said.</div>
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Can we put a stop to this overblown stuff about Jewish Labour people who vote for Ken being in some way “disloyal”? You will be calling them “kapos” next, no doubt…….</div>
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They have made their choice, you have made yours. Whatever the result in a week’s time, we will all have to live with it.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lamia</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 2:11 pm</td></tr>
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amie,</div>
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Imagining your last paragraph to be a parody, I read the article linked to. There I saw those were the actual words used, and the rest of the article is depressing, as you say.</div>
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<i>We are sure that Ken will sort the 210 bus out.</i></div>
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And you’ll be <i>under</i> it, mates.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>zoltix</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 2:11 pm</td></tr>
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cjcjc – I am still hoping that the bookies are right.</div>
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Me too. Apparently Boris went to 1/3 briefly, but this attracted enough cash for the major bookmakers to move him back towards 1/4. A good opinion poll is needed to reassure; but the % error from a 1000/2000 sample is close to the perceived difference between the two.<br />
Definitely not sleeping well.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 2:13 pm</td></tr>
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DL, I don’t think they should be insulted in personal terms. But I think that they, and others like them, are directly complicit in legitimising antisemitism.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Shmoo-El</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 2:15 pm</td></tr>
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“Can we put a stop to this overblown stuff about Jewish Labour people who vote for Ken being in some way “disloyal”?”</div>
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Jews who vote for politicians who have a history of casual antisemitism and explicit support for vicious antisemitic racists are not “disloyal”. They are merely tragic and pathetic characters. Although in a sense, I think any Liberal who votes for Ken is being disloyal. Disloyal to the idea of zero-tolerance for racism that I have always associated with Liberalism.</div>
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“You will be calling them “kapos” next, no doubt…….”</div>
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Ah the pre-cog accusation. I love that one.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Shmoo-El</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 2:21 pm</td></tr>
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<i>I don’t think they should be insulted in personal terms. But I think that they, and others like them, are directly complicit in legitimising antisemitism.</i></div>
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That’s rather charitable, to the point of being contradictory. Guilty of promoting racism, but not worthy of insult. You Brits and your politeness! It will be the death of you! (Hopefully not literally.)</div>
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On the other hand, a polite English gentlemen like Michael Ezra thinks “morons” are worthy of insult. For an outsider, cultural norms are so difficult to grasp sometimes.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>george</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 2:24 pm</td></tr>
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Poor Britain</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dave Bryanson</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 2:35 pm</td></tr>
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I don’t see what Danny Rich is hoping to achieve, anyway. Does anyone know how the Chief Rabbi intends to vote, or the Bishop of London, or the Archbishop of Westminster. Probably not, because they’ve had the sense not to get involved, in public at least. It’s not their job.</div>
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I can understand that they might make a statement if they felt that either candidate constitutes a danger to the community, but having decided (possibly prematurely) that KL isn’t a threat, Danny Rich would have been better advised to say “vote for whoever you want”, rather than “Back Ken”.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 3:55 pm</td></tr>
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Ho ho ho!</div>
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Trust iEngage to get their gallabiyah tucked into their underpants as they leave the toilet… Haddad: what a find for the “democratic face” of Islamist clerical fascism.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>pedro</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 4:01 pm</td></tr>
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Actually kapos has already been pulled out before this thread and zero tolerance to racism would mean neither of the two get a vote too.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Aymenn Jawad Al-Tamimi</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 4:12 pm</td></tr>
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Completely agree with DL’s comment here.</div>
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Seriously, the tribalism and sectarianism at this blog are appalling. I thought you guys weren’t Arabs…</div>
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:D :D</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada" style="color: #fa4949;">Judy</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 4:13 pm</td></tr>
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According to <a href="http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/mayor/boris-johnson-stretches-lead-over-ken-livingstone-as-favourite-to-rescue-the-economy-7681730.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">this afternoon’s Evening Standard</a>, Boris Johnson has now widened his poll lead over Livingstone to eight points, and would win 54 to 46 in the second round.</div>
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At the London Jewish Forum meeting on Tuesday, Livingstone somewhat reluctantly said he would release accountant-certified full information about his earnings and tax payments. He apparently <a href="http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/mayor/pressure-grows-on-ken-livingstone-over-income-tax-7678598.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">repeated that promise to the Evening Standard</a>.</div>
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We’re still being told that the release of the information is “imminent”.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>cjcjc</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 4:21 pm</td></tr>
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The poll is only a week away.<br />
I would bet that he will not release any further tax details.<br />
Another stalling tactic and yet another lie.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 4:35 pm</td></tr>
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RE: I am certainly right to treat you with contempt, as you are clearly a moron.</div>
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Schmezra is today’s Pot.Kettle.Black winner.</div>
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Oh, and he does speak for me.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>just looking</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 5:36 pm</td></tr>
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Whatever ME, as I said before, you can call me anything you like, I couldn’t care less.</div>
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Thanks vildechaye.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Ezra</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 6:09 pm</td></tr>
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That’s great. Anyway, I had better go, I have some of the St. John’s Wood types to meet.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada" style="color: #fa4949;">Judy</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 6:13 pm</td></tr>
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Galloway <a href="http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/mayor/george-galloway-to-beat-boris-johnson-ken-livingstone-must-return-to-his-true-red-roots-7681729.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">in the Evening Standard</a> claims to have a good, close relationship with Livingstone but thinks Boris has run a “more vivid” campaign, and that if he were a betting man he’d be betting on Boris to win. Galloway says that if Livingstone wants to win, he should come out as the hard leftie he really is, put two fingers up to the tax critics, and go for his core vote– including the 750,000 Muslims he thinks are part of it.</div>
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Seems to me he’s more honest about Livingstone than the five Jewish Labour loyalists who churned out today’s letter urging London’s Jewish Labour supporters to hold their nose and vote for him. <a href="http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/66873/labour-jews-still-critical-endorse-ken-livingstone-a-week-go" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">And they couldn’t even get all the original signatories to sign today’s letter</a>.</div>
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Two cheers for Adam Langleben who refused to allow himself to be co-opted to try and get more Jews to vote for Livingstone. Thought he will be voting for him himself.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lamia</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 6:32 pm</td></tr>
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<i>those that know me are aware that I have been reading a reasonable amount of fiction of late.</i></div>
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You’ve been writing a fair bit, too.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://namememes.com/" style="color: #fa4949;">jackjonathon</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 7:04 pm</td></tr>
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The poll is only a week away.<br />
I would bet that he will not release any further tax details.<br />
Another stalling tactic and yet another lie.<br />
<a href="http://namememes.com/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">names meanings</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>amie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 7:05 pm</td></tr>
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Tower Hamlets and the postal votes</div>
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<a href="http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/london/yard-called-in-over-serious-voting-fraud-in-london-mayor-election-7681782.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/london/yard-called-in-over-serious-voting-fraud-in-london-mayor-election-7681782.html</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>DCook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 7:11 pm</td></tr>
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Milliband on 5Live this morning.</div>
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Campbell: “What do you think of Ken Livingstone sayng that he couldn’t see rich Jews voting for him.</div>
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Millipede: “He didn’t say that. It was a private party”</div>
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Move on. It was all a dream.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lamia</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 7:28 pm</td></tr>
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<i>Campbell: “What do you think of Ken Livingstone sayng that he couldn’t see rich Jews voting for him.</i></div>
<i></i><br />
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<i>Millipede: “He didn’t say that. It was a private party”</i></div>
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i.e. “He did say that, but no one was meant to find out. And I am a liar.”</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lamia</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 7:29 pm</td></tr>
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<a href="http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/london/yard-called-in-over-serious-voting-fraud-in-london-mayor-election-7681782.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/london/yard-called-in-over-serious-voting-fraud-in-london-mayor-election-7681782.html</a></div>
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So Livingstone’s mates are trying to rig the vote. I wonder how Michael Ezra will try and spin this.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>DCook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 7:36 pm</td></tr>
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Won’t it be a bit incongurous to turn London into a Bacon For Islam?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 7:40 pm</td></tr>
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Lamia</div>
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Vote early, vote often!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>DCook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 8:25 pm</td></tr>
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A piece on Livingstone at a meeting with Jews recently<a href="http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/ken-livingstone-tries-and-not-entirely-succeeds-to-make-up-with-london-s-jews-1.426695" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/ken-livingstone-tries-and-not-entirely-succeeds-to-make-up-with-london-s-jews-1.426695</a></div>
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Won’t say that he wouldn’t welcome Qaradawi again. He simply says its unlikely he would come again.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Joseph K.</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 8:37 pm</td></tr>
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<i>I wonder how Michael Ezra will try and spin this.</i></div>
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“Some Londoners, it appears, are willing to break the law in order to see Ken Livingstone elected. But they should not be condemned. Clearly they have resorted to this behaviour in their desperation over the decline of public transport in London during Boris Johnson’s tenure as Mayor.</div>
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Say whatever you will about Ken, at least he’ll make the trains run on time.”</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Harvey</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 8:54 pm</td></tr>
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Instead of posting comments here , pick up some Boris leaflets and hit the streets . Anything to keep that leper out .</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Switch it Up</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 8:56 pm</td></tr>
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The people who post and comment here are about as vile a cluster of individuals as you’re ever likely to meet. I’m routing for Livingstone almost purely because it’ll upset you nasty fuckers.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lamia</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 9:18 pm</td></tr>
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<i>The people who post and comment here are about as vile a cluster of individuals as you’re ever likely to meet.</i></div>
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Possibly, but at least we exist, unlike a lot of Ken’s ‘voters’.</div>
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<i>I’m routing for Livingstone almost purely because it’ll upset you nasty fuckers.</i></div>
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I doubt if you have any say in the matter. You”ve quite possibly already voted for Ken Livingstone in Tower Hamlets whether you know it or not.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 9:22 pm</td></tr>
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Switch it Up</div>
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The people who post and comment here are about as vile a cluster of individuals as you’re ever likely to meet.</div>
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I think you’re mistaken. Some of the people Livingstone exchanges body warmth with, are a lot more vile.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>mettaculture</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 9:27 pm</td></tr>
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jan frank, Shmoo-El</div>
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The population of Jews in Europe in 1933 was 9.5 million, 60% of the World total.</div>
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Central Europe (Germany, Austria Hungary and Czechoslovakia had 1.6 million with 565.000 in Germany).</div>
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However there were 6.7 Million in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union.</div>
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The cultural dislocation and subsequent denial and wipeover of the cultural contribution that Jewish people made to Poland and Romania, Lithuania, Latvia and the Western Soviet Union is truly astonishing, truly heartbreaking even more so when the scale of the tragedy there is so rarely fully acknowledged (not least because of their active collaboration with the Nazis extermination plans even exceeding their wildest estimates).</div>
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<a href="http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/jewpop.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/jewpop.html</a></div>
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Jews were not the small minority in Eastern Europe that they were in Western and Central Europe.</div>
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They were 5% of the region’s population 7.6% of the Lithuanian population and nearly 10% of the population of Poland.</div>
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By 1950 the Jewish population of Poland was 45,000 and even this did not prevent further pogroms.</div>
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<a href="http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005161" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005161</a></div>
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The Germans may have conceived the plan of extermination (although it appears Lithuania achieved it before Wansee) but it could not have succeeded even in conquered territories without some seriously efficient collaboration by many nationals of Eastern Europe, most of whom have escaped punishment or even censure.</div>
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This great Eastern European crime of collaboration in the Holocaust we must also never forget.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>arnon</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 9:50 pm</td></tr>
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Perhaps Livingstone also converted to Islam so that he can hate Jews legally?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 10:09 pm</td></tr>
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Very interesting and worthwhile comment, metta.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Flaming Fairy</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 10:21 pm</td></tr>
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<i>The people who post and comment here are about as vile a cluster of individuals as you’re ever likely to meet.</i></div>
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Says someone posting and commenting here</div>
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<i>I’m routing for Livingstone</i></div>
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Routing what for Livingstone?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vilde chaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 11:09 pm</td></tr>
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i’m hoping KL is routed</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 11:35 pm</td></tr>
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Do you mean like this <a href="http://www.bachsign.com/images/routed.jpg" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">K</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 11:44 pm</td></tr>
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Or this?</div>
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<a href="http://zapp5.staticworld.net/reviews/graphics/124915-2405p069-1b.jpg" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://zapp5.staticworld.net/reviews/graphics/124915-2405p069-1b.jpg</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Alan Ji</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 26 April 2012, 11:54 pm</td></tr>
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Harvey @ 26 April 2012, 8:54 pm</div>
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“pick up some Boris leaflets”</div>
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You mean you’ve seen some?</div>
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I’ve seen precisely none.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada" style="color: #fa4949;">Judy</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 12:51 am</td></tr>
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At least two young British Jews were murdered in Israel since <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">the Hamas campaigns of bombing buses and stabbing lone Jews</a> took off.</div>
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Shmuel Mett, a Mir Yeshiva student about to be married, was stabbed to death walking through the Old City back to his Yeshiva in Jerusalem circa 2007.</div>
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Yoni Jesner, a promising 19 year old university student spending the summer on a Bnei Akiva youth movement visit was murdered in a bus bombing in Tel-Aviv.</div>
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Many London Jews knew one or both of these young men personally. Bnei Akiva is the largest and most popular youth movement of the mainstream Orthodox and Yoni Jesner was a well loved young leader in the movement. Shmuel Mett was the son of a former teacher at the Hasmonean High School, and studied at the Mir Yeshiva, which is the most revered and prestigious of the great Charedi Yeshivas in Israel, where many strictly Orthodox and mainstream orthodox young men from London choose to spend a period of study.</div>
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At the meeting with the London Jewish Forum on Tuesday, Livingstone was repeatedly asked about his embrace of Qaradawi, the Muslim Brotherhood’s hate preacher who advocates suicide bombings and murders of Jews in Israel as a religious obligation. He said he disagreed with Qaradawi on supporting suicide bombings.</div>
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But <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/davehillblog/2012/apr/26/ken-livingstone-meets-london-jewish-forum?CMP=twt_fd" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">look at what he said</a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6630903"> when repeatedly pressed to give an assurance that he would not be inviting Qaradawi to London again if elected Mayor:</a></div>
<a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6630903"></a><br />
<blockquote style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #fcfbf9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; border-bottom-color: rgb(222, 213, 190); border-bottom-style: double; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(230, 224, 207); border-left-style: double; border-left-width: 1px; border-right-color: rgb(230, 224, 207); border-right-style: double; border-right-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(244, 241, 233); border-top-style: double; border-top-width: 1px; font-size: 11px; margin-left: 0em; margin-right: 0.5em; padding-left: 1.5em; padding-right: 1.5em;">
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<a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6630903"><i><b><br />“I won’t ask Qaradawi to drive the 210 bus”</b></i></a></div>
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<a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6630903">
</a><br />
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<a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6630903">That’s how aware and sensitive he is to London’s Jews.</a></div>
<a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6630903">
</a><br />
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<a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6630903">The 210 bus route exercises some of London’s most orthodox Jewish community, because it’s the nearest thing to a direct connection between Stamford Hill and Golders Green, the two largest centres of Charedi Jews in London. Only so far, it involves having to get off the bus and change at Finsbury Park Station.</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada" style="color: #fa4949;">Judy</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 2:58 am</td></tr>
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I’ve now posted my take on the London Jewish Forum meeting with Livingstone <a href="http://bit.ly/IljSXB" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">here</a>. I’ve embedded clips of the chairman’s introduction, described to me by someone else who was there as a Party Election Broadcast on Behalf of Ken Livingstone, Friend to the Jewish Community. The main clip is the section of the meeting where Livingstone fielded questions about concerns about what some audience members regard as the anti-semitic overtones in his past comments and his support for Press TV and Qaradawi.</div>
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By way of contrast, to those who feel ready to take a look, there’s also a clip of Boris Johnson answering questions from the Jewish community audience at the equivalent meeting a week earlier.</div>
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Fascinating to compare the body language in the two clips, as well as the content and style.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Phil</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 3:00 am</td></tr>
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I really do despair of the people who wrote that letter endorsing Ken.</div>
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For God’s sake, stop thinking like frightened little Jews, scared stiff you won’t have access if Ken is elected and start thinking like the progressive, Labour Party members you are supposed to be.</div>
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On the point of principle, people who pander to anti-semitic stereotypes and give succour to homophobes and misogynists shouldn’t be in the Labour Party, let alone be the bloody candidate for the capital. Playing off communities against each other is not progressive and it’s not Left either.</div>
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And on the tactical point, how the hell do they expect – post-Bradford West – that a Ken victory is going to be interpreted INSIDE the Labour Party. We are going to nhear no end of analysis that communatist politics is the way forward as we walk like lemmings into electoral disaster.</div>
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It’s preceisely because it’s getting closer that anything that assists in pushing Ken over the top is so dangerous now.</div>
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I understand the Labour right or wrong mentality. But it means Labour principles right or wrong, not Labour candidates.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada" style="color: #fa4949;">Judy</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 3:01 am</td></tr>
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<i><br />The people who post and comment here are about as vile a cluster of individuals as you’re ever likely to meet.</i></div>
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I wonder what it is the electrifying Mr or Ms Switch It Up feels is so incomparably vile about the posters and commenters on HP.</div>
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I think we should be told. It is after all the watchword of Harry’s Place.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lamia</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 3:54 am</td></tr>
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<i>I understand the Labour right or wrong mentality. But it means Labour principles right or wrong, not Labour candidates.</i></div>
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Absolutely right Phil. I fear for the Labour Party and for mainstream politics generally if Livingstone wins. What he does about bus and train fares is nothing to the message it would send to all kinds of extremists. And I wouldn’t rule him out winning at all. It looks like some of his supporters have been working busily to fix it so he does.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>spgb gray</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 6:33 am</td></tr>
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I am outraged at the short sharp thrift Mr. Michael Ezra has received in the above comments. Michael is known for his careful, thoughtful and well researched pieces. He is a beacon of kindness, a champion of the poor London commuter…. (continues. p.97)</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Anat</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 6:37 am</td></tr>
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Shmoo-El, yes it can happen here, and I fully expect it to. Maybe not tomorrow, but I have no doubt it will happen.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 6:45 am</td></tr>
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“It’s only Jewish Londoners who ask me about Qaradawi. No-one else ever mentions him.”</div>
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Judy – that quote from KL (was that included in your clip – I didn’t watch the whole thing?) was the bit that most stood out for me in your post. I find it hard to believe that is true – and if it is true – so what – how does it affect the issues at stake?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>John</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 7:09 am</td></tr>
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Judy<br />
I second Sarah’s request – I can’t seem to find the clip.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada" style="color: #fa4949;">Judy</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 7:43 am</td></tr>
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Yes, he really did say it. I’ll have to re-listen to the clip. But even if it isn’t on it, the Barnet Bugle recorded the whole event and put it up on their open Vimeo site, so it will be on their whole-event clip. I promise to track it down for you.<br />
It was in the context that he was saying other Londoners than Jews are asking him about things like fares and housing in this campaign, and it’s only Jewish Londoners who keep going on about Qaradawi.</div>
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He’s totally impervious to those concerns. And I think he’s lying about only Jews amongst Londoners asking about Qaradawi. In the same way, he gave the strong impression at the meeting that Moody’s backed his case for cutting fares.</div>
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But as far as I know, Moody’s report identifies a huge chunk of the “surplus” as being earmarked for Piccadilly line improvements and also points out that spending reserves in the way Livingstone wants to will lead to a lowering of TfL’s credit rating, so their credit costs will rise–leading to deficits and fare or Council Tax hikes.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 7:47 am</td></tr>
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Just to clarify – I wasn’t questioning the authenticity of the quote, just very surprised that KL has *only* been questioned by Jewish Londoners about this. I see the quote as a (comparatively) subtle visible sign of the attitude that complaints about antisemitism are manufactured, opportunistic or, at best, symptoms of neurotic oversensitivity.</div>
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There is a more than usually crappy comment about this over on SU (Vincent Doherty #11)I don’t know if anyone who hasn’t been banned might like to respond? To be fair – Vanya (#8) might do so.</div>
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<a href="http://www.socialistunity.com/livingstone-speech-to-london-jewish-forum/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://www.socialistunity.com/livingstone-speech-to-london-jewish-forum/</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 7:47 am</td></tr>
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[My comment crossed with yours Judy - thanks]</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>John</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 7:53 am</td></tr>
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OK – found it. He doesn’t actually say:<br />
<i>It’s only Jewish Londoners who ask me about Qaradawi. No-one else ever mentions him.”</i></div>
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That is what he says at the end of the clip (around 18 mins onwards) about Israel not Qaradawi – the only time he is ever asked about Israel is when he meets London Jews…</div>
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On Qaradawi he does say (around 12 minutes in and onwards):<br />
<i>He’s banned from coming to Britain…he’s 89 years old….why are you worrying about (my) ever meeting Qaradawi… why is this such an obsessive point?…..</i></div>
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So Judy was not entirely accurate. But the clip is worth viewing/listening to – the bit about the Reuben brothers in particular was very interesting – not even a hint of an apology.</div>
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Oh, and by the way, anyone but Ken.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Ezra</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 7:57 am</td></tr>
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I believe the positions taken by JLC and the LJF are far more politically sensible than those advocated by, for example, a <i>Spare Rib</i> relic.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada" style="color: #fa4949;">Judy</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 8:00 am</td></tr>
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<blockquote style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #fcfbf9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; border-bottom-color: rgb(222, 213, 190); border-bottom-style: double; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(230, 224, 207); border-left-style: double; border-left-width: 1px; border-right-color: rgb(230, 224, 207); border-right-style: double; border-right-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(244, 241, 233); border-top-style: double; border-top-width: 1px; font-size: 11px; margin-left: 0em; margin-right: 0.5em; padding-left: 1.5em; padding-right: 1.5em;">
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<i><br />the bit about the Reuben brothers in particular was very interesting – not even a hint of an apology.</i></div>
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The really striking thing about Livingstone’s comments on both the Rubens Brothers and Finegold was that his explanations implied they were perfectly reasonable comments to make about each of them, because in his eyes, they were wrong ‘uns. That in his eyes justifies making comments with antisemitic connotations which he refuses to recognise as having such connotations, but which he doesn’t usually make about non-Jews. Though he does rather have a habit of condemning attacks on himself as being Nazi-like.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 8:07 am</td></tr>
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I do think it’s important that anything presented as a quote should be absolutely accurate – but – Michael – please</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 8:20 am</td></tr>
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That schmezra continues to be an above-line poster here is astonishing.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 8:20 am</td></tr>
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Sarah, I would not have bothered commenting on this post in the first place had not 2 out of the first 3 comments referenced me. Notably, I did not see you complaining about the third comment in this thread. I also do not see what is so wrong with me defending the JLC and the LJF against the repeated attacks on it from some in these comments boxes.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>MArk2</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 8:42 am</td></tr>
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Isn’t a significant aspect of he letter that it clearly disproves the lie that was put about that the reps had gone into the meeting with Livingstone intending it to fail.</div>
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By the way didn’t you just love that really plaintive bit in the “Now we say vote for Ken” piece about how they wish he’d quoted from the Hebrew prophets as well as the Koran -fuckwits!</div>
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Probably just forgot, Rabbi Danny – just forgot – er, mere slip of the mind.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 8:44 am</td></tr>
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Although that was a nasty comment it didn’t fall into the same territory as ‘kapo’ which I did delete in an earlier thread. I thought calling someone a ‘Spare Rib relic’ was a bit much.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #fa4949;">Michael Ezra</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 8:54 am</td></tr>
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Sarah, I said “<i>Spare Rib</i> relic” and not “Spare Rib relic.” The difference is important. Are you familiar with <i>Spare Rib</i> and notably some of the <a href="http://bit.ly/KfK0OX" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">articles</a><a href="http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=6630903"> it published in 1982-1983?</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada" style="color: #fa4949;">Judy</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 9:02 am</td></tr>
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<blockquote style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #fcfbf9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; border-bottom-color: rgb(222, 213, 190); border-bottom-style: double; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(230, 224, 207); border-left-style: double; border-left-width: 1px; border-right-color: rgb(230, 224, 207); border-right-style: double; border-right-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(244, 241, 233); border-top-style: double; border-top-width: 1px; font-size: 11px; margin-left: 0em; margin-right: 0.5em; padding-left: 1.5em; padding-right: 1.5em;">
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<i><br />I believe the positions taken by JLC and the LJF are far more politically sensible than those advocated by, for example, a Spare Rib relic.</i></div>
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How curious. As far as I’m aware no one on HP or any other blog I’ve come across who’s written about or commented on Livingstone 2012, the LJF or the LJC was ever a collective member, associate, representative or employee of Spare Rib, or wrote any article or letter published in Spare Rib.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>cjcjc</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 9:17 am</td></tr>
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“And I think he’s lying about only Jews amongst Londoners asking about Qaradawi.”</div>
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He is lying again, of course.</div>
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Gay Londoners are also continuing to ask about him for a start.</div>
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He just can’t help lying.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 9:31 am</td></tr>
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Thanks, Judy, for your observation about <i>Spare Rib</i>. Until I saw that, I’d been Googling in vain to make sense of Michael Ezra’s last comment.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #fa4949;">Michael Ezra</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 9:33 am</td></tr>
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Well, that is interesting. The links between <i>Spare Rib</i> and <i>Feminist Review</i> might be a figment of my imagination. And when I look at, for example, <i>Feminist Review</i>, No. 4 (1980) and <i>Spare Rib</i>, September, 1984, I must be seeing things.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 9:56 am</td></tr>
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I am familiar with Spare Rib – ok, if you were just talking about antisemitism/antizionism associated with SR then I take it back. I thought it was just a jibe.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #fa4949;">Michael Ezra</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 10:06 am</td></tr>
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Sarah,</div>
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Yes, I was. I did capitalise the initial letters and utilise italics which would be standard for commenting on a title of a publication. I do accept however that it was somewhat obscure and you might not have seen it that way.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 10:07 am</td></tr>
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This still makes no sense. Where does the “relic” come into this?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #fa4949;">Michael Ezra</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 10:17 am</td></tr>
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<a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/relic?s=t" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">Relic</a></div>
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rel·ic [rel-ik]<br />
noun<br />
1. a surviving memorial of something past.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Anaximanders Sandal</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 10:23 am</td></tr>
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“1. a surviving memorial of something past.”</div>
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Or</div>
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“2. from the vaults”</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 10:24 am</td></tr>
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Thank you, Michael. That’s completely unhelpful. I know what the word means. I just don’t know what its referent is.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>DCook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 10:31 am</td></tr>
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<i>The 210 bus route exercises some of London’s most orthodox Jewish community, because it’s the nearest thing to a direct connection between Stamford Hill and Golders Green, the two largest centres of Charedi Jews in London. Only so far, it involves having to get off the bus and change at Finsbury Park Station.</i></div>
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Judy, that means he went to that meeting with members of the Jewish Community with that quip already lined-up. It was no off-the-cuff remark but something he had already decided would be a riposte to those Jews. How much more sick can Livingstone get?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 10:31 am</td></tr>
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I believe Judy used to be involved with Spare Rib, Kolya.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #fa4949;">Michael Ezra</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 10:36 am</td></tr>
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Kolya,</div>
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It is a long story. I might write about in detail some day. But if you are really interested, perhaps you should spend some time here:</div>
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The Women’s Library<br />
London Metropolitan University<br />
25 Old Castle Street<br />
Aldgate<br />
London<br />
E1 7NT</div>
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They have some wonderful material.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>DCook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 10:38 am</td></tr>
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<i>the only time he is ever asked about Israel is when he meets London Jews</i></div>
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Yeah? I’ll call him a liar on that one. Is he telling us that not a single one of his Muslim constituency ever ask him about Israel? Or, is his snide get-out that they ask him about “Palestine”.</div>
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Maybe its not acceptable that London Jews should be concerned about their family in Israel because what Ken thinks about Israel also reflects on what Ken will think of Jews who are Zionists. If Ken hates Israel then Ken can’t have much time for a Jew who supports Israel. If Ken were asked for funding for a Jewish charity, school or housing project then I wonder if his criteria is going to be whether they are in any way supportive of Israel.</div>
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The more Ken is exposed here the more I think of him more as a Nazi than I do as a Marxist/Leninist/Socialist/Extreme Left (delete/circle as necessary).</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>DCook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 10:40 am</td></tr>
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… and I guess its only his Muslim Constituency who ever bother to ask him about Pakistan, Kashmir and the Palestinians.</div>
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Its only Gay people who ask him about his attitudes to gay people and only train-spotters who ask him about new rolling-stock.</div>
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Toys R Us don’t sell fresh fish!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 10:44 am</td></tr>
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Thank you, Sarah.</div>
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Although my thinking has evolved a little since those days, I used to read <i>Spare Rib</i> avidly for a number of years.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #fa4949;">Michael Ezra</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 10:47 am</td></tr>
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The issues between 1982 and 1984 were most interesting wouldn’t you say Kolya?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 10:54 am</td></tr>
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Yes – I in fact used to read Spare Rib in the early 80s, though I’m sure anything to do with Israel would just have washed over me. I do have some hazy memory though, oddly, of complaints about the casual use of a Star of David.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada" style="color: #fa4949;">Judy</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 10:54 am</td></tr>
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<i><br />I believe Judy used to be involved with Spare Rib, Kolya.</i></div>
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I was never involved with Spare Rib, and given its record of publishing antisemitic antizionist articles and refusing to publish any Jewish feminist unless she declared herself an antizionist, I very greatly resent any suggestion that I was.</div>
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I played a major role amongst a large group of British Jewish feminists who organized to protest against these actions.<br />
Calling any member of such a group a “Spare Rib relic” is like calling a former member of the Anti-Nazi League a “National Front relic”.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 10:57 am</td></tr>
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Michael, at the risk of sounding pompous, I wish you didn’t use the same tone towards people who insult you gratuitously, and those who have substantive passionate disagreements with you.</div>
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I, for one, would be interested in the “long story”, if you ever do write about it.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 10:57 am</td></tr>
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I’m very sorry – I really did have this idea you were involved in it – I have only recently picked up on this problem with SR and Zionism, and it really would not have been something I’d have been alert to as a teenager.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 11:09 am</td></tr>
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Oy vey!</div>
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I didn’t think you had a connection with <i>Spare Rib</i>, Judy. That’s why I found Michael’s comment puzzling (to say nothing of its rudeness).</div>
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My interest in the magazine coincided with my early exploration of feminist ideas, before I became attuned to the central role they ascribed to anti-Zionism.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>cjcjc</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 11:23 am</td></tr>
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I don’t know what “Spare Rib’ was publishing 30 years ago but I find it quite entertaining that Mr Ezra seems to think it reasonable grounds for criticism, whereas what Livingstone says and believes<i>today </i>is apparently irrelevant or at least pales into insignificance when compared with the fortunes of the <i>Jubilee Line </i>.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #fa4949;">Michael Ezra</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 11:31 am</td></tr>
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Kolya,</div>
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I apologise if I came across as rude. It was not intentional. What went on in the feminist movement, particularly in the 1970s-1980s, is quite fascinating. The anti-Zionism that was exhibited was symptomatic of some of the wider issues with which the movement struggled. Notably, as I see it, the problems stem from identity politics, or as some fashionably refer to it, “idpol.” Some of these are discussed and explained in a clear cut way in the following book which I would recommend:</div>
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Daphne Patai and Norettta Koertge, <i>Professing Feminism: education and indoctrination in women’s studies</i>, (Lexington Books, 2003).</div>
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I would also recommend the following:</div>
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Christina Hoff Sommers, <i>Who Stole Feminism? How Women Have Betrayed Women</i>, (Touchstone, 1995).</div>
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Any detailed look at the extremes of the feminist movement will see heterosexual women deemed to be untrustworthy because they were “sleeping with the enemy.” Lesbians demanded leadership within the women’s movement because they were “most oppressed women” and as Ronald Radosh mentions in his memoirs (<i>Commies: A Journey Through the Old Left, the New Left and the Leftover Left</i>, [Encounter Books, 2001], pp117-118) you had lesbian women attending classes brandishing baseball bats to protect themselves from the heterosexual women. There is masses of this sort of thing and I do not believe it is as widely known as it should be.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #fa4949;">Michael Ezra</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 11:50 am</td></tr>
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Judy forgets mention what sort of thing that was published in something with which she was very much associated. Perhaps Judy would like to discuss good reasons for publishing the work of Nira Yuval-Davis.</div>
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This is a women whose work and opinions were discussed by Jenny Bourne (“Homelands of the mind: Jewish feminism and identity politics,” <i>Race & Class</i>, Vol. XXIX, No. 1, p.10)</div>
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Going further than the ‘non-Zionists’ who criticized Israel merely for its racist dispossession of the Palestinians, [Yuval-Davis] pointed out that its Zionist founders had actually shared with arch anti-Semites racist assumptions about the irreconcilability of Jew and gentile, and that Israel now played a role in the Third World which put it on the side of imperialist oppression.</div>
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It is amazing what sort of things there are in the vaults.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>cjcjc</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 12:01 pm</td></tr>
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Yes indeed.</div>
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Don’t worry about what Livingstone and his pals say and believe<i>today </i>— look over here at what some obscure rag published 30 years ago.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>spgb gray</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 12:07 pm</td></tr>
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Ezra</div>
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EZRA!</div>
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yes, you boy! Have you forgotten your schoolboy days? Eh? EZRA!!!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>amie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 12:08 pm</td></tr>
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I wish you didn’t use the same tone towards people who insult you gratuitously, and those who have substantive passionate disagreements with you.</div>
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Judy does not appear to have engaged with Michael Ezra at all on this thread, let alone insult or even have had a disagreement with him. She merely expressed views and standpoints he dislikes. He finds this cause enough to direct a spiteful attack on her couched in demeaning terms. Ugh.</div>
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What with Israelinurse, me and now Judy, he does seem to harbour a certain rancour towards women older than, say, Laurie Penny, which the deployment of the word relic reflects.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lamia</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 12:09 pm</td></tr>
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<i>“It’s only Jewish Londoners who ask me about Qaradawi. No-one else ever mentions him.”</i></div>
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Livingstone is lying. He was asked about this in a radio interview less than a month ago – and also about his paid work for a regime which hangs gay people.</div>
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<a href="http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/03/26/ken-livingstone-interviewed-on-gaydarradio-defends-former-iranian-state-tv-job-and-connection-with-homophobic-muslim-preacher-yusuf-al-qawadi/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/03/26/ken-livingstone-interviewed-on-gaydarradio-defends-former-iranian-state-tv-job-and-connection-with-homophobic-muslim-preacher-yusuf-al-qawadi/</a></div>
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@ Kolya</div>
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Michael Ezra is not insulted gratuitously.</div>
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He’s insulted because he treats almost everyone, unprovoked, with a smug, self-regarding condescension.</div>
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He also has such a massive ego that he also can’t admit a mistake. So if he’s mistakenly linked Judy to Spare Rib, don’t expect him to show any grace about it.</div>
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And finally, he’s a supporter of Ken Livingstone, a Jew-baiter in the here and now, not just in the early 1980s. He deserves everything that gets thrown at him.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>spgb gray</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 12:17 pm</td></tr>
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Michael Ezra won’t get the thing he deserves being thrown at him:</div>
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he is a legal thief, stealing the lives of working people and making money from it too, through the process of capitalist exploitation and surplus value — making damn sure he rubbishes anyone who points out he is a grubby parasite like the rest of the Hedge Fund Gurus and capitalists of the capitalist system he supports.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 12:34 pm</td></tr>
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Any chance of getting back on the topic – which is not Michael Ezra?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 12:45 pm</td></tr>
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As someone who is anxious about both the soul and the fortunes of the Labour Party (though not fanatically so) – I really liked this piece:</div>
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<a href="http://www.obligedtooffend.com/2012/04/vote-boris-or-ken-plague-on-both-their.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">http://www.obligedtooffend.com/2012/04/vote-boris-or-ken-plague-on-both-their.html</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Ezra</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 1:07 pm</td></tr>
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“…he does seem to harbour a certain rancour to woman older than, say, Laurie Penny.”</div>
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I guess the fact that in the comments boxes of this blog I have praised women such as Linda Grant, Julie Burchill and above, even in this thread, have positively recommended books by not so young woman authors is totally lost on some.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>amie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 1:18 pm</td></tr>
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Any chance of getting back on the topic – which is not Michael Ezra?</div>
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It would help if the thread were not buckling under the weight of Ezra’s standard tactic of a bombardment of bibliography the relevance of which is obscure.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Harvey</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 1:23 pm</td></tr>
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Missed your comment Alan but if you are looking in<br />
Just go to local conservative party headquarters , pick up a handfull of Boris posters and go door to door as many as possible .<br />
It all helps . Anything to keep that scroat livingstone out .<br />
I think I labelled him a leper last night , either will do .</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 1:27 pm</td></tr>
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Thanks Sarah. I strongly agree with the author’s conclusion:</div>
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…the idea that it is possible to line up behind individuals like Livingstone and Galloway for electoral advantage is testament to the level to which left-wing politics in Britain has sunk. If anything, a great deal more idealism would be very welcome.</div>
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Whether or not you support the Left, the unimaginative way the Labour party has responded to the Blair-Brown-Cameron transition, is a tragedy for British politics.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>arabies</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 1:28 pm</td></tr>
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Hm, the only person who calls Michael Ezra a ‘Hedge Fund Guru’ (not followed by hysterical laughter) is Michael Ezra.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Ezra</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 1:49 pm</td></tr>
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“… standard tactic of a bombardment of bibliography.”</div>
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How outragrous! Refernencing sources! One should never, ever type their source for any claim made.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Disillusioned Lurker</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 1:50 pm</td></tr>
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Yes, Sarah, that is a very good piece (though, yes, I would still hold my nose and put my ‘X’ besides Ken if I had a vote next week)</div>
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In particular, the way some who should know better went barmy over Bradford West as a wonderful harbinger of hope for the left is one of the most depressing spectacles of recent times.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>amie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 2:22 pm</td></tr>
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I have praised women such as Linda Grant</div>
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Oh yes I recall now- tweetsharing with LindaG that HP is such a pathetic blog..</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Abu Faris</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 2:34 pm</td></tr>
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I really do think it is time to stop the sniping at Michael Ezra. I think he is wrong to support KL; I also happen to think he is one of the most informed and informative writers on this blog; a man of considerable good manners; and undeserving of this level of personalised abuse.</div>
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As I wrote above, I do think that good political sense has absented itself from him on this one; and I do think his taste in journalists leaves something to be desired.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 2:41 pm</td></tr>
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I agree completely.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Ezra</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 3:05 pm</td></tr>
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Thank you Abu Faris.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Shmoo-El</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 5:43 pm</td></tr>
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I more or less agree with you Abu. I think Michael Ezra is the Noam Chomsky of HP. Probably intelligent. Very good at citing obscure (and relatively less relevant) sources when making an empirical claim. And internally coherent (to the point of dogmatism) when making a rational argument. But clearly wrong about everything. And immoral to boot. It’s an interesting type to be sure.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Shmoo-El</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 5:48 pm</td></tr>
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And I should add…both get very cranky and condescending when on the defensive!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Phil</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 5:57 pm</td></tr>
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I genuinely don’t get Michael Ezra here. For someone who illuminates us so much with archive material detailing the minutiae of the nutty far-Left over the decades, Michael of all people knows that Livingstone’s links with London Labour Briefing, Socialist Action, the WRP, Sinn Fein and all sorts of nutjobs should disqualify him from anything in British politics.</div>
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And that’s before we get to the crass comments about Jews, platforms for anti-Semites and homophobes, pandering to Islamists etc.</div>
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So come on Michael. Justify why you’re chucking out of the window the habits of a lifetime and convince me your not taking the mick.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Phil</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 6:00 pm</td></tr>
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And by the way, with people like Gilbert and Rabbi Rich, nothing surprises me . You’re in exalted company Michael.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Ezra</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 6:14 pm</td></tr>
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Shmoo-El,</div>
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Perhaps we have a different view of morality and perhaps it is me who is moral and you who is immoral.</div>
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Phil,</div>
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Oh yes, I have some wonderful material on Ken Livingstone going back over thirty years. I have even used material from it to write posts for <a href="http://bit.ly/JFhFa1" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">this blog</a>. You could argue that it is precisely <i>because</i> I am familiar with so much material about Ken, that I am happy to vote for him. I do not get so worked up about, for example, Ken’s comments about the Reuben Brothers when I quoted him as saying of Rupert Murdoch, “He is an animal and we should put him on a boat and deport him.” I do not believe that he is now or ever has been an antisemite, and I alswo happen to think that he is better for London than Boris Johnson.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>amie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 6:16 pm</td></tr>
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And I should add…both get very cranky and condescending when on the defensive!</div>
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He cannot bear to be contradicted and loses it when that happens.</div>
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Someone was abusive to Ezra in the third email. Ezra was abusive back. Fine, fair enough, no issue with that.</div>
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But when he responds gratuitously with calculated malice to an expression of views by Judy, who had not even engaged with him, let alone abused or disagreed directly, this is not a man of considerable good manners, pace Abu Faris: You would not have picked up on the spiteful and slightly menacing, innuendo in his so called trawl through the archives.</div>
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It was the same with Israelinurse. She disagreed with something he wrote and was hounded and traduced as a fabricator irrespective of the inappropriateness of the attack of the timing thereof. When I came to her defence, the spite spotlight switched to me. Good manners is not an avoidance of and horror of swearing.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Shmoo-El</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 6:24 pm</td></tr>
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<i>Perhaps we have a different view of morality and perhaps it is me who is moral and you who is immoral.</i></div>
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Dude, that’s trippy. And what if this is all a dream, and when you go to sleep <i>that’s</i> reality!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Shmoo-El</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 6:25 pm</td></tr>
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Amie, I agree with you. There are people who are nice, and there are people who are good. There are people who are neither. (The rare few are both.)</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Ezra</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 6:30 pm</td></tr>
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My response to Judy was because she continually attacks the JLC and the LJF. I wonder whether amie fully supports these attacks by Judy and believes just because Judy has made these attacks that they should stand.</div>
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In my opinion – and it is my opinion – I feel that London’s Jewish communities are far better served by the JLC and and LJF than they are by someone with political background of Judy’s. And on that note, there has been no response from Judy on the rights or wrongs of being involved in a publication that published the works of Nira Yuval-Davis, a charge that cannot be levelled at Jeremy Nemark of the JLC or Adrian Cohen of the LFJ, two people which Judy seems to like attacking.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>amie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 6:58 pm</td></tr>
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And on that note, there has been no response from Judy</div>
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Hard for you to understand, but some people have other things to do on Erev Shabbat like bake challaha and other preparations for receiving shabbat guests.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Alec</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 7:00 pm</td></tr>
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Given that Judy is of some flavour of Orthodox, I assume she disconnects from the Internet over shabbat.</div>
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~alec</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 7:13 pm</td></tr>
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The relevant message I sent was at 11.50am. One does not need to be an expert on the laws of <i>halacha</i> to know that shabbat is unlikely to commence anywhere near that early in the day on a Friday.</div>
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But in any event, perhaps Judy will respond tomorrow night after the stars are shining in the sky, or maybe Sunday morning. I shall watch out for it. I look forward to seeing a perfect explanation for being involved in a collective that published Yuval-Davis.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Alec</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 7:18 pm</td></tr>
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Yes, of course. She hangs around online until the last few minutes before sunset and, like you with comments about yourself, dwells on any and every slight against her to return, at the first opportunity, to run her opponents into the ground in a <strike>narcissistic</strike>righteous fury.</div>
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~alec</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>amie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 7:21 pm</td></tr>
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One does not need to be an expert on the laws of halacha</div>
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you clearly are no expert on the timescale of challah baking.</div>
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“someone with political background of Judy’s. ”</div>
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No doubt you have trawled the archives to give all members of JLC and and LJF a clean bill of health all the way back to their barmitzvahs and beyond.</div>
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I am not interested in what your trawls have revealed and whether or not you have got the wrong end of the stick as far as your research on Judy is concerned. It is irrelevant 40 years on. 40 years ago I was a madrich in Betar. 30 years ago I was working alongside Desmond Tutu. 2 elections ago, I was voting for Livingstone and canvassing for my Labour MP. None of this would be a guide to where I stand today on Israeli, South African or UK politics.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Alec</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 7:25 pm</td></tr>
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Amie, would an egg-free challah be credible in your eyes?</div>
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~alec</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Shmoo-El</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 7:33 pm</td></tr>
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<i>The relevant message I sent was at 11.50am. One does not need to be an expert on the laws of halacha to know that shabbat is unlikely to commence anywhere near that early in the day on a Friday.</i></div>
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But one would have had to observe shabbat just once as a woman without servants to understand that preparations for shabbat start well before sundown.</div>
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I take it back. Michael Ezra is the Mitt Romney of HP. Painfully out of touch.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>amie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 7:35 pm</td></tr>
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Alec, I have had my fond illusions shattered about what the sacred bread of shabbat should contain since speaking to the Persian woman who runs our local kosher deli. She tells me the bread they bless is a kind of flat bread which contains no egg. And I also found in the Budgens of Belsize park (where Ezra knows more people than anyone) a plaited loaf called with a Polish version of the word challah which claims to be from an authentic Polish recipe. So neither the plait nor the inclusion of egg is a Jewish invention it seems.</div>
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“She hangs around online until the last few minutes before sunset and, like you with comments about yourself, dwells on any and every slight against her to return, at the first opportunity, to run her opponents into the ground in a narcissistic righteous fury.”</div>
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Haha exactly. Ezra lives in a solipsistic cocoon where he imagines that responding to his comments are the priority of everyone’s lives so that the failure to do so is damning proof of guilt.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Ezra</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 7:40 pm</td></tr>
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I am certainly familiar with the background of Adrian Cohen and Jeremy Newmark back to their student days, two people that have been attacked by Judy – and yes – I would be happy to give both of them very positive references on their backgrounds.</div>
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What I know about Judy’s politics <a href="http://bit.ly/JFtooX" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">today</a> is that she spends her time criticising the Jewish Leadership Council, the London Jewish Forum, the Board of Deputies of British Jews, and Jewish “millionaires, billionaires.”</div>
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One wonders with what words some of the people on this blog would choose to denounce someone else who had spent so long slating mainstream Jewish communal bodies and leaders as Judy.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Shmoo-El</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 7:42 pm</td></tr>
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“One wonders with what words some of the people on this blog would choose to denounce someone else who had spent so long slating mainstream Jewish communal bodies”</div>
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Jewish?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>amie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 7:55 pm</td></tr>
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One wonders with what words some of the people on this blog would choose to denounce someone else who had spent so long slating mainstream Jewish communal bodies”<br />
Jewish?</div>
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Exactly, what could be more Jewish than that? In South Africa we used to refer to the SA Board of Deputies as the Board of Lupittes (yiddish for old rags) Even though my own mother in law used to work for them for 20 years as an office administrator.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Ezra</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 8:01 pm</td></tr>
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So it is perfectly acceptable for Judy to criticise the Board of Deputies of British Jews, the London Jewish Forum, the Jewish Leadership Council and the leaders associated with these organisations because “what could be more Jewish than that?”</div>
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Yet, at the same time, it is not acceptable for me to criticise Judy. Perhaps she is holy.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Alec</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 8:09 pm</td></tr>
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Given, Michael, your category error in declaring Judy to have been a <em>Spare Ribber</em>, I’ll take your latest assessment of her position with a pinch of melah. And there is a difference between criticism of stated positions, and personalized and calculated abuse which went far beyond any piece of coarse language.</div>
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Amie, as I recall plaited challah is a European Jewish tradition, with none amongst Mizrahim, so that’d make sense. As an egg allergist, I wouldn’t be able to handle the dough of never mind eat challah… maybe I could wear gloves whilst kneading.</div>
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~alec</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 8:21 pm</td></tr>
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RE: a man of considerable good manners; and undeserving of this level of personalised abuse.</div>
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Sorry to disagree with you AF, but are you talking about a different ME? The schmezra I am familiar with has shit manners and is a spiteful, pompous putz.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 8:37 pm</td></tr>
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amie – while I agree with all your criticisms of Michael’s personal attacks on other contributors, and I profoundly disagree with his support for Ken Livingstone, I still think he should not be subjected to personal insults. It’s better all round to challenge his views and his style of debating (as you have been doing) without the invective that some people have been using.</div>
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Shmoo-El – equating Michael Ezra with Noam Chomsky, suggests a profound ignorance Chomsky’s vileness.</div>
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Phil – I conjecture that Michael’s present-day allegiances are the product of a visceral sense of loyalty to various people and groups, which he doesn’t try to justify even to himself. I think this is a flawed way of choosing one’s moral commitments, because it tends to degenerate into pure tribalism. Judy, by contrast, always presents the moral case for her criticism of the targets of her wrath.</div>
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For all that, I think that Michael Ezra’s participation in the debates at HP is on balance beneficial, and we should all try to play down the personal stuff, even though he himself seems to find it difficult to do so.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 9:13 pm</td></tr>
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Kolya: I respect your opinion, but in the case of schmezra, i don’t agree.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Shmoo-El</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 9:23 pm</td></tr>
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Kolya,</div>
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<i>Shmoo-El – equating Michael Ezra with Noam Chomsky, suggests a profound ignorance Chomsky’s vileness.</i></div>
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I’m talking about form, not content.</div>
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And when you say:</div>
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“I don’t think they should be insulted in personal terms. But I think that they, and others like them, are directly complicit in legitimising antisemitism.”</div>
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I think you are full of crap. And you know it. Any person that is “directly complicit in legitimizing” any kind of racism, as you accuse Michael Ezra of doing, is worthy of insult, contempt, ridicule, blacklisting…you name it. Even if he is wearing a monocle and top-hat.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 9:51 pm</td></tr>
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Shmoo-El</div>
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If I’m full of crap, please believe me that I do <i>not</i> know it. I can’t imagine what theory you have for my saying stuff I know to be crap.</div>
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As for Michael Ezra’s support for Livingstone legitimising antisemitism, I believe that to be true. I also believe that my saying that is not a personal insult, it’s voicing an opinion about the consequences of his political stance. The reason I’m not as vituperative in my condemnation as you are, is that the legitimisation of antisemitism is not what Michael intends. He’s very mistaken, not evil.</div>
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vildechaye</div>
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It’s a pleasure and an honour to be disagreed with in such a courteous way :).</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Shmoo-El</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 10:03 pm</td></tr>
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Ok, Kolya. You don’t know you are full of crap. :)</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 27 April 2012, 10:13 pm</td></tr>
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I knew you could be reasoned with, Shmoo-El!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Ezra</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 12:02 am</td></tr>
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Despite amie’s implication that Judy was baking challah and preparing for shabbat and hence that is a reason for her not responding since 11.50am, I note that Judy had time to <a href="https://twitter.com/#!/judyk113/status/195936118758309888" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">use Twitter</a>quite a bit today. Perhaps it is possible between plaiting challahs, there is time to read newspaper articles, send tweets, read the tweets from other people and retweet them, but not explain why she was involved in a collective that published Yuval-Davis. As amie puts it, I am “no expert on the timescale of challah baking.”</div>
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Shmoo-El chimed in “preparations for shabbat start well before sundown.” Obviously so, especially if those shabbat preparations require a certain amount of time spent using Twitter.</div>
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Kolya can provide conjectures about the positions I take and why I take them, but a conjecture is simply that, a conjecture. I certainly do justify at least to myself why I hold certain positions. For example it is not simply due to loyalty to people or organisations that I defend the actions of the JLC and the LJF, it is because I believe them to be very good organisations that have good staff and carry out good work. The LJF is, for example, fortunate to have Rabbi Avraham Pinter on its steering group, someone who is the head of the Jewish school, someone who fully understands the concerns of London’s Charedi community and someone voted, a few years ago, as the <a href="http://www.thejc.com/jc-power-100/the-jc-power-100-numbers-1-10" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">the eight most influential person on British Jewry</a>by readers of the <i>Jewish Chronicle</i>. I know for whom he represents and how considered his opinions are, and that is more than I can say for Judy.</div>
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I note that Vildechaye continues to froth at the mouth.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 1:44 am</td></tr>
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Michael</div>
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OK, my conjectures are only conjectures. But please back-off from having a go at Judy. Criticise her arguments to you heart’s content. But stop trying to discredit her. It’s uncalled for, ineffective, and unattractive.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 7:18 am</td></tr>
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Kolya: Thanks for your thanks. And i see, by your last comment, that the penny is beginning to drop about schmezra, which is a good thing.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 8:43 am</td></tr>
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Kolya,</div>
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You say that I should stop trying to discredit Judy, but that is precisely what she does to so many Jewish leaders and organisations. She <a href="http://adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada/2012/04/window-dressing-ken-livingstone-for-the-jewish-community.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">denounces</a> them as biased and unrepresentative. And this type of thing is not isolated.</div>
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<a href="http://adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada/2012/03/the-strangest-case-of-entryism-the-goings-on-at-the-board-of-deputies.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">Last month</a> she was on the attack against Mick Davis, the chairman of the UJIA, in these terms: “whose contribution to Judaism seems primarily to consist of donations from the billions he makes as the major shareholder of a goldmining company.” She really does seem to like attacking the “millionaires, billionaires” in the Jewish community. Perhaps she should lay off. Had she checked the <a href="http://www.ujia.org/who-we-are/whos-who/910/mick-davis/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">UJIA website</a> she would have noted that Mick Davis, “played an active role in Jewish communal affairs in South Africa, serving on the executive of the Union of Orthodox Synagogues.” And being chairman of the UJIA involves more than writing checks.</div>
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In the comments box of the same post, she side swipes numerous leading people in the Jewish community. On the attack again against Mick Davis: “Davis is an arrogant billionaire used to getting his own way who is totally convinced he knows best and despises the views of the ordinary mainstream Jewish community.”</div>
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She denounces the Board of Deputies for being involved in a campaign that was “stupid and disastrous, as well as profoundly dishonest.” This type of thing is wonderful to the enemies of the Jewish community. As can be seen looking at the comment of April 09, 2012 at 01:22 PM, it is listed as being from “Jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com.” This is, in case you are not aware, a blog devoted to <a href="http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.co.uk/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">attacking Zionism</a> and frequently also attacking Jewish communal bodies. The commentator wants to know what was dishonest about the Board of Deputies. (Indeed the blog owner, Mark Elf, seems to believe that everything about mainstream Jewish communal bodies is dishonest). Rather than ignoring the comment or deleting the comment from such people, Judy goes into full flight on the attack and provide ammunition:</div>
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It was dishonest because it amounted to a proxy funding of a profoundly anti-religious Trotskyist group to support the Board of Deputies’ aim of defending British Jews. It was dishonest because it was never formally announced– it emerged after being referred to by at least one journalist, and Jeremy Newmark, the key official responsible for this shabby debacke commented in an article reporting his view of the supposed triumph of using this tactic that they had “worked with” this group.</div>
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It was dishonest because it was never put to the decision-making authority of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, where it would certainly have been voted down and the tactic of using a Trotskyist group as a proxy overwhelmingly condemned.</div>
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Additionally, it was deeply dishonest because had the funding been known and owned up to at the launch of the major campaign by Engage which got its funding from the BoD, their credibility as a radical left group opposing the boycotters from the left would have been shot to shreds.</div>
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I’m sure i could identify more ways in which it was profoundly dishonest, but that’s enough to be going on with.</div>
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No wonder the commentator from the anti-Zionist blog was appreciative enough of Judy’s efforts to send his thanks.</div>
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Her denouncing of Engage in those comments as Trotskyist or “soft-Trotskyist”, whatever the latter term means, is a ridiculous charge. I have never once seen a call by Engage for the workers to overthrow parliamentary democracy with a violent revolution.</div>
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But as far as you seem to be concerned, Judy is too precious, one must stop, “having a go” at her.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Ezra</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 8:46 am</td></tr>
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I note “just looking” remains as cowardly as ever – not putting their name to their posts.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>just looking</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 8:48 am</td></tr>
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well done Michael, good for you.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Flaming Fairy</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 9:45 am</td></tr>
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Michael – must you be so childish and snippy all the time. People disagree with you – get over it, for fuck’s sake.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>amie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 10:09 am</td></tr>
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I tend to agree that my judgment would be to delete any inquiries from the poison Elf as they are always in bad faith.<br />
I find the attacks on Davis to be inordinate and resent still more deeply the slur against him by Ruth Deech purely on the basis that he is South African.</div>
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Unfortunately ammunition for jewssansfrontiers is abundantly available in the pubic domain in the savage infighting between all these vested interest organisations in the editorial and letter pages of the JC and Jewish news.</div>
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However, when it comes to giving ammunition, there is the matter of the White Phosphorus libel perpetuated by you on HP by your wretched animation. It was met with a torrent of disapprobation, but unfortunately because of the standard vanishing of the comments on HP, it now stands as a permanent blot on HP, without that balancing opposition of the comments, in the archives of HP. And as I have pointed out before, it was embedded in at least one other blog by a notorious anti Israel troll, with the gloating caption that its provenance was none other than HP.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 10:45 am</td></tr>
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Michael</div>
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Your detailed comment at 28 April 2012, 8:43 am is very interesting. Thanks for that information.</div>
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I welcome the fact that it challenges Judy’s current arguments and tactics, rather than her personal integrity.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #fa4949;">Michael Ezra</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 10:53 am</td></tr>
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Oh yes, it doesn’t matter too much about criticising Mick Davis because there is ammunition on him in letters pages of the <i>JC</i>, but heaven forbid someone mention “white phosphorus” and Israel as such information <a href="https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ix=sea&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=white%20phosphorus%20israel&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_nf=&gs_l=&pbx=1&fp=2eb548b7ec688333&ix=sea&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1280&bih=685" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">can never be found</a> on the Internet.</div>
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I should say at this point, I am highly amused by this thread. It has provided me quite a lot of entertainment so far and I guess I still have to look forward to Judy’s return to commenting after she has eaten the challahs that she spent most of yesterday baking (between using Twitter). I wonder if she also made chullent.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 10:55 am</td></tr>
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vildechaye</div>
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Thanks for your thanks for my thanks :).</div>
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I get frustrated when knowledgeable people who have lots to offer the rest of us waste their energies and our time on <i>ad hominem</i>fights.</div>
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Having said that, I have a lot of time for people who are prepared to marshal serious arguments, even if I strongly disagree with some of their opinions.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>amie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 11:29 am</td></tr>
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mention “white phosphorus” and Israel as such information can never be found on the Internet.</div>
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You didn’t “mention” white phosphorus, you constructed a scenario which perpetuated a libel of Israel’s use of it.<br />
note the sources which head the google results.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #fa4949;">Michael Ezra</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 12:37 pm</td></tr>
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Oh yes, claiming Israel used white phosophorus is a libel!</div>
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On <a href="http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/E89E699D-A435-491B-B2D0-017675DAFEF7/0/GazaOperation.pdf" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">this link</a> is an official report from the State of Israel. In the report it is admitted that white phosphorus was used by the IDF in the operation in Gaza that occurred between late December 2008 and the middle of January 2009. Perhaps amie would like to complain to the State of Israel about their libel against their own army.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>amie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 1:52 pm</td></tr>
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You perpetuate the libel further by citing this official Israeli report as supporting your position, with the misleading statement that they “admitted” using white phosphorus, thereby implying there was something illegal in this.</div>
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The Official report you link to, far from being “a libel against their own army” completely exonerates Israel from any illegal or improper use of white phosphorus.</div>
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This is a far cry from your falsely constructed scenario where your interrogator lays the groundwork by saying he is not happy with the use by Israel of white phosphorus and then repeatedly questions the interogatee saying you want to know why the Israeli army uses white phosphorus. You construct the responses of the interogatee so that she repeatedly stonewalls and fails to answer the question. The average jewsansfrontiersperson is not going to read the detailed, measured forensic findings of the Israeli state in this lengthy document. They are going to seize on your calculated insinuation that Israel did act illegally in the use of white phosphorus. And they have.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>amie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 2:03 pm</td></tr>
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And in your hubris, you have placed your misbegotten animation on youtube as well.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 2:14 pm</td></tr>
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So now it is not a libel to say that Israel used white phosphorus, it is a libel to suggest, “illegal or improper use of white phosphorus.”</div>
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It can be noted that at no point in <a href="http://bit.ly/IbX08a" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">the video</a> is it ever stated that the use of white phosphorus was used in an illegal or improper fashion. As those that understand the video, which amie clearly doesn’t, the video is not really about white phosphorus. It sates quite clearly under the video, “What happens when one asks certain supporters of Israel a question for which they do not know the answer, not that there is no answer, just that they don’t know it.” And that is what this video is actually about: defenders of Israel who do not know their facts. Some of these defenders of Israel, I have realised, even go on television and make school child errors about citizenship and nation in relation to Israelis allowing anti-Zionists to exploit their errors.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>amie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 3:42 pm</td></tr>
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“It can be noted that at no point in the video is it ever stated that the use of white phosphorus was used in an illegal or improper fashion.”</div>
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That is what is implied. You state you are not happy with Israel’s use of wp. You construct an interogatee who is refuses to answer the repeated question.</div>
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You manipulate a scenario where a natural inference is that her failure to answer implies guilt. You do not explain in the blurb that it is not that there is no answer but that that she doesn’t know the answer but refuses to admit she doesn’t know the answer.</div>
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In any event this scenario that “this is what happens when one asks certain supporters of Israel a question for which they do not know the answer, not that there is no answer, just that they don’t know it” is a wholly artificial construction of your own making.</div>
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The reflex conclusion which the jewsansfrontiersperson on the Clapham omnibus would reach with none of these tortuous subtleties, is that Israel used wp wrongfully.</div>
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You are responsible for creating that impression, and they have used it for that purpose.</div>
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Does Jeremy Newmark or other pillars of the mainstream Jewish establishment chuckle along with you about your clever little video? I doubt it, but if you assure me they do, that would be reason to doubt their judgment.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>amie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 3:43 pm</td></tr>
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Correction: you do state that in the blurb, but I dismiss this for the reasons stated above.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>amie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 3:45 pm</td></tr>
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Nowhere do you state that there is an innocent answer, the implication being that the correct answer is unfavourable. That you thought then and that you still think the correct answer is unfavourable is evident from your misreading or misrepresentation of the Israeli official report.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #fa4949;">Michael Ezra</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 4:57 pm</td></tr>
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I stated that this was what the video was about:</div>
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What happens when one asks certain supporters of Israel a question for which they do not know the answer, <b>not that there is no answer, just that they don’t know it.</b></div>
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I have emphasised the relevant words that amie might do well to read and re-read. She clearly has a comprehension problem. At no point did I say there was no answer to the question as to why white phosphorus was used. I just said that the person who was asked did not know the answer. That was what the video was about. No one could ever cite my video and declare Michael Ezra said Israel’s use of white phosphorus was illegal as I would not let them get away with it. Just like I shall not let amie get away with her ridiculous claims about the video and how people might interpret it.</div>
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Perhaps amie ought to get someone else to explain the video to her and what it is about, as over a number of threads she has brought this video into the discussion and each time she makes the same errors.</div>
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As to which “pillars of the mainstream Jewish establishment”, might well have seen my video in advance, it is not something I wish to disclose. I do not wish to provide amie and Judy ammunition to write blog posts or otherwise attacking the Jewish establishment.</div>
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Nevertheless, this was just an animated video which is hardly a scholarly source. It does not compare to <i>Feminist Review</i>published by Palgrave Macmillan and available in university libraries around the world for academics to cite. The very same journal which published Yuval-Davis and associated with someone who amie has decided to defend.</div>
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Anyway, only a few more hours till the stars come out. Perhaps Judy will come back and provide me some more entertainment.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>amie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 5:29 pm</td></tr>
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“She clearly has a comprehension problem”. You have a problem addressing me directly. I have no problem comprehending your reasoning, tortuous though it is. This is groundhog day- you have difficulty understanding my argument expounded at length on the original thread and again here- I explained that people do not take the trouble to read or digest such tortuous captions: all they hear is the multiplicity of repetitions of the question why did Israel use wp and the failure to provide an answer. That is what sticks. That is how advertising and propaganda works. The simple repeated mantra.</div>
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The test is not what the creator’s heavily nuanced intentions were, but what the impact is. The fact is, the clip has been used by at least one anti Israel propagandist to my knowledge.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Alec</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 5:55 pm</td></tr>
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Anyway, only a few more hours till the stars come out. Perhaps Judy will come back and provide me some more entertainment.</div>
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As I’ve said before, this – the snide reference to her observance of shabbat, the stated wish to be amused/entertained – goes to the nub of your conduct. Other ABL authors as well as BTL commenters see<em>HP</em> as a means to disseminate views they consider socially and politically significance, or to improve their knowledge.</div>
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You are here only to derive amusement from ridiculing and rubbishing named individuals.</div>
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You are the blogging equivalent of a child who pulls the legs off insects.</div>
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You were wrong about her being ex <em>Spare Rib</em>. You were wrong about an eight hour break from her last comment at sunset being in any way a sign of her dodging your question. And still you persist, with eternal bad grace purposefully depersoning your interlocutur by referring to them in the third person… someone with knowledge of the behaviour disorders should be able to give a suggestion as to the underlying pathopsychology, but Just Looking (who has dropped enough hints as to his/her identity for anyone who’s met him/her surely to identify him/her; and also, unlike some people, isn’t so monumentally self-obsessed that s/he needs to link his/her name to everyone s/he says anywhere, anywhen) seems to have the measure of you.</div>
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~alec</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #fa4949;">Michael Ezra</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 5:59 pm</td></tr>
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amie,</div>
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You seem to like making assumptions about people which are not based on fact. You keep, for example, reiterating how other people would see the video and all that they would do is hear the repetitions of the white phosphorus question because that is all that they would understand.</div>
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According to you:</div>
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The test is not what the creator’s heavily nuanced intentions were, but what the impact is. The fact is, the clip has been used by at least one anti Israel propagandist to my knowledge.</div>
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It is true, the video was praised and used on <a href="http://aaronovitch.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/kudos-to-michael-ezra.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">blog</a> where I suspect that the authors are not the most pro-Israel people in the world. But one can look at the post and read it and one can also read every single comment to the post – and you know what – <i>not once</i> did a single person mention “white phosphorus.” The reason for this was because they understood what the video was about!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 6:05 pm</td></tr>
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RE: I have a lot of time for people who are prepared to marshal serious arguments, even if I strongly disagree with some of their opinions.</div>
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Kolya, I couldn’t agree more. Unfortunately, schmezra is not one of those people, as so many here can attest.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Flaming Fairy</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 6:10 pm</td></tr>
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amie – I learned a long time ago that Ezra isn’t worth the expense of energy it takes to interact with him. He isn’t interested in a discussion, merely in proving you wrong and stoking his enormous, overinflated ego. Quite why he’s kept on here as a contributor is a mystery, given his total inability to withstand criticism of any kind and his tendency to lash out like this. He’s an above the line troll.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Kolya</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 6:41 pm</td></tr>
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vildechaye & Flaming Fairy</div>
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I’ve not been an active participant here for very long, so I’m still getting the measure of the place. The experience is enriching, if a little disorientating at times.</div>
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While in practice I’m not quite as benefit-of-doubt giving as is Sarah, I do believe there is both intrinsic and tactical merit in looking for the best in one’s interlocutors, even if one strongly disagrees with them.</div>
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But I must admit that notwithstanding Michael Ezra’s undeniable utility as a somewhat erratically accessible database of modern political history, the lack of respect and consideration he displays in his incorrigibly remorseless triumphalist hammering of his opponents, is – how to say this nicely? – <i>quite despicable</i>.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #fa4949;">Michael Ezra</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 7:31 pm</td></tr>
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Sadly, I come back and despite a few posts there is not much to be said by me. I came here for <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">an argument</a> and all I received was abuse. Still, I give you all credit, you are all quite good at abuse, it is just a shame that you don’t really seem to be up to argument. I am sure if you all try harder, you might be able to argue. But perhaps I am overestimating all your capabilities.</div>
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In any event, I am off out. “just looking” might be pleased to know that I am going to be doing that St. John’s Wood thing. If Judy comes back tonight after the havdalah, I shall, <i>baruch hashem</i>, respond tomorrow.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>amie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 28 April 2012, 8:14 pm</td></tr>
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The reason for this was because they understood what the video was about!</div>
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yes, you can be very proud of yourself that part of your traducing of israelinurse is preserved there although gone from here. The fact that they approve of that slur demonstrates that they have no clue. Israelinurse’s rigorous mode of argumen,t closely based on relevant, substantiated and well researched facts, often based on first hand eye witness inspection in loco, is light years removed from the artificial construct of stock slogans you have created in your cartoon character.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #fa4949;">Michael Ezra</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 9:44 am</td></tr>
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amie,</div>
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An alternative,and in my opinion, better, explanation is that they do have a clue and were able to understand what I said, whereas you, on the other hand, despite your protestations, clearly don’t.</div>
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Given you claim that Israeli Nurse’s mode of argument is “rigorous” and “based on relevant, substantiated and well researched facts,” don’t you think it is a shame that she clearly didn’t understand the very basic difference between nationality and citizenship in Israeli law when going on television to argue the point?</div>
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One thing that you say that is accurate is that my construct was artificial, that is why I did it in cartoon format. As I have previously explained to you, it was a parody of certain pro-Israel advocates. Indeed, within a week or so prior to I created that video, I had this conversation on someone else’s Facebook wall. I have changed the name of the person in the comments below to “Hasbara Operative.”</div>
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Hasbara Operative</div>
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Ok great selection tomorrow at LSE: Gideon Levy at 6pm and GALLOWAY at 7pm. Who is coming and filming?</div>
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Michael Ezra ….<br />
I went to listen to Gideon Levy speak at Jewish Book Week today. He got a pretty good reception.</div>
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Hasbara Operative</div>
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You being one of the fans?</div>
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Michael Ezra</div>
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I listen and learn.</div>
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Hasbara Operative</div>
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Michael, as an Israeli who represents the consensus view I find these comments of yours offensive. I rarely use this word, but I totally mean it this time. You are very welcome to comment elsewhere.</div>
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Michael Ezra</div>
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Gosh, I thought Gideon Levy was also Israeli and not only Israeli but a journalist for the prestigious Israeli newspaper Haaretz and a former aide to Shimon Peres who is currently President of the State of Israel. Perhaps I am wrong and it is a different Gideon Levy.</div>
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Hasbara Operative</div>
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I really do not intend do get into this at 11.45pm on facebook. all I am saying is I’m not interested in self-proclaimed friends commenting on my facebook wall. All the best with your learning expeditions.</div>
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Hasbara Operative</div>
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Did you know? I was “Peace Now” between 1995-1999. Still have the t-shirt. Some things called relevance, changing reality, learning, common sense have joined the equation and changed many people’s views. They didn’t change Gideon’s. Fine. End of discussion here. Good night</div>
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This was real life and in some ways real life was more extreme than my parody. As a result of the conversation above, I asked on my personal Facebook status a question such as “Why do some people gets so offended when Israel is criticised?” This conversation ended up with one of my Facebook friends accusing another (Linda Grant), in my opinion, without any justification, of being a self-hating Jew.</div>
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It was as a consequence of these episodes that the video was made. Indeed, one of the best lines that I believe I used in the video for the female character was based directly on a line from a pro-Israel defender in that Facebook discussion.</div>
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So, those that understand the video, including the person who put up the post on the Aaronovitch Watch site, realised what the post was really about and that is why they did not bother mentioning “white phosphorus” but declared that the best bit of the video was this:</div>
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– All you are interested in doing is hating Israel. You read the Guardian. I read it too. Look how many articles that they publish attacking Israel. And then look at the comments. If there is an article on Canada, a massive country, they will be lucky to attract 50 comments. But on the tiny little country of Israel, they would get 500 comments on an article.</div>
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– A lot of those comments are your comments or responses to your comments. If you did not comment, there would be a lot less comments.</div>
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– I comment because I have to defend Israel.</div>
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And while my video is a parody, I believe there is an element of truth in the argument above.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada" style="color: #fa4949;">Judy</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 11:42 am</td></tr>
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I’ve had time to check the detail of the video on the <a href="http://adloyada.typepad.com/adloyada/2012/04/window-dressing-ken-livingstone-for-the-jewish-community.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #fa4949;">blog post I wrote</a> which I linked to earlier on this thread..</div>
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I’m very grateful to Sarah AB and particularly to John who helped me identify the error I made through mis-remembering Livingstone as having said words to the effect that “It’s only Jewish Londoners who ever ask me about <i>Qaradaw</i>i”, when he actually said words to the effect that, “It’s only Londoners who ever ask me about <i>Israel</i>”</div>
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As SarahAB says, accuracy is crucial, and I’m happy to correct that error. I think SarahAB’s comment is spot-on at 7:47 on the 27th, to the effect that re Livingstone’s discourse</div>
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<i><br />I see the quote as a (comparatively) subtle visible sign of the attitude that complaints about antisemitism are manufactured, opportunistic or, at best, symptoms of neurotic oversensitivity.</i></div>
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This Livingstone ploy is also tellingly skewered by DCook’s comments on 27th April at 10:38 and 10:40.</div>
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Apart from that, I see that while I’ve been otherwise engaged–almost entirely on the pleasures of my Orthodox Jewish observance– there’s been a level of personal attack on me which is in my view not just out of order, but manifestly irrelevant to the subject of this thread and the points I’ve been making on it.</div>
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I think when any attempt is made to demand that the thread is diverted onto one person’s issues which are diversions from the topic in hand, and attempts made to lay down the terms on which participants are deemed to have the authority or status to speak, that’s something to be refused and not indulged.</div>
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Readers can make up their own minds about who’s right on that score and on the points I make here and on my blog.</div>
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Getting back to the topic of the thread, there’s one additional wonderful piece of irony in the letter issued by five of the six Jewish Labour supporters who wrote their private letter to Miliband urging him to help Livingstone to clean up his image so more Jewish Londoners will vote for him.</div>
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And that’s their closing assurance in their latest letter that they’re sure that Livingstone will sort the 210 bus issue. Now, which Jewish Londoners are really deeply concerned about the 210 bus issue? Overwhelmingly, it’s the various Charedi communities’ Jews, whose main centres are in Stamford Hill and Golders Green and who often have educational, learning, family and business reasons for wanting that commute to be as safe and easy as possible.</div>
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So how do you think they’ll view assurances coming from very senior figures in Jewish religious movements which they regard as absolute anathema and a perversion of the Jewish religion– a former chair of the Reform Synagogues and the Chief Executive of the Liberal Synagogues of Great Britain?</div>
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That’s inter alia likely to be a reason why Rabbi Avraham Pinter would not have signed the original letter or the latest one, though he was clearly deeply disappointed with the original private meeting Livingstone had with the Labour activists, and very much wanted him to make some effort to make some effort to reach out to his constituency’s concerns.</div>
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incidentally, Rabbi Pinter has for some years been thanking me warmly (as he did again at the LJF meeting with Boris Johnson) for consistently defending the Charedi communities and way of life on HP when they’ve come under blanket attack on the basis of their religious beliefs, lifestyles and attitudes to Christians claiming to be “Messianic Jews”.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 1:15 pm</td></tr>
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Firstly, I should comment on the business of Judy and the so-called “personal attack” on her because of her “Orthodox Jewish observance.” I would never normally make a comment on such a thing or bring up the matter for discussion as one thing I am against and have repeated that I have opposed to in the comments section of this blog is identity politics.</div>
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The matter of Judy’s level of religiosity was not brought up by me but by amie and then alec:</div>
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amie<br />
27 April 2012, 6:58 pm<br />
And on that note, there has been no response from Judy<br />
Hard for you to understand, but some people have other things to do on Erev Shabbat like bake challaha and other preparations for receiving shabbat guests.</div>
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Alec<br />
27 April 2012, 7:00 pm<br />
Given that Judy is of some flavour of Orthodox, I assume she disconnects from the Internet over shabbat.<br />
~alec</div>
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I responded, perfectly reasonably at 7.13pm on Friday:</div>
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The relevant message I sent was at 11.50am. One does not need to be an expert on the laws of <i>halacha</i> to know that shabbat is unlikely to commence anywhere near that early in the day on a Friday.</div>
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But in any event, perhaps Judy will respond tomorrow night after the stars are shining in the sky, or maybe Sunday morning.</div>
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Alec wasn’t having any of this as he responded at 7.18pm:</div>
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Yes, of course. She hangs around online until the last few minutes before sunset and, like you with comments about yourself, dwells on any and every slight against her to return, at the first opportunity, to run her opponents into the ground in a…righteous fury.</div>
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And amie responded at 7.21pm:</div>
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you clearly are no expert on the timescale of challah baking.</div>
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The following can be noted from this discussion. And the key one is what seems to be an assumption that Judy was baking challah (a type of bread that is often in plaited format.) It can be noted that just because someone is an an orthodox Jewess,it does not mean that they necessarily spend their Friday’s baking challah. Indeed, it make come as a shock to some, but there are places such as Carmelli’s in Golders Green and other kosher bakeries where a number of Orthodox families actually purchase bread and hence do not bake their own. I could go on with other assumptions about “receiving shabbat guests” when it is entirely possible that an Orthdodox woman would receive no guests and might even be a guest at someone else’s house. But amie seems to like making assumptions.</div>
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I therefore pointed out the ridiculousness of this assumption that Judy must have been spending so much time on Friday baking challah that she did not have time to respond by simply noting that she had been using Twitter between my message at 11.50am and around 7.00pm on Friday:</div>
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Despite amie’s implication that Judy was baking challah and preparing for shabbat and hence that is a reason for her not responding since 11.50am, I note that Judy had time to use Twitter quite a bit today. Perhaps it is possible between plaiting challahs, there is time to read newspaper articles, send tweets, read the tweets from other people and retweet them, but not explain why she was involved in a collective that published Yuval-Davis. As amie puts it, I am “no expert on the timescale of challah baking.”</div>
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Because I found the whole thing amusing, I made a further response on the point:</div>
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I still have to look forward to Judy’s return to commenting after she has eaten the challahs that she spent most of yesterday baking (between using Twitter). I wonder if she also made chullent.</div>
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And then later on I commented again at the end of another post:</div>
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Anyway, only a few more hours till the stars come out. Perhaps Judy will come back and provide me some more entertainment.</div>
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Alec again was not amused and made the following ridiculous comment:</div>
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As I’ve said before, this – the snide reference to her observance of shabbat, the stated wish to be amused/entertained – goes to the nub of your conduct.</div>
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My reference to Judy’s observance of shabbat was not in the slightest designed as a snide slight to Judy because of her observance. I would never have mentioned or discussed her being Orthodox in the first place had the business of challah baking not been previously brought up by amie.</div>
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To demonstrate that I happen to know something of Orthodox life and the sabbath I made a further comment:</div>
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If Judy comes back tonight after the havdalah, I shall, <i>baruch hashem,</i> respond tomorrow.</div>
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This sentence demonstrates that I am aware that Sabbath is often ended in religious homes with a havdalah ceremony, and it also demonstrates that I am aware that many Jewish people, even many who are not so Orthdodox, will often use the words “<i>“baruch hashem</i>” (loosely translated as “blessed is god”) when discussing something that they aim to do in the future. By saying that you will do something in the futures assumes one is well enough to do and that has been no unforeseen accidents or otherwise preventing you from doing something. i.e it is a bit like tempting fate. The term<i>baruch hashem</i> is used to recognise this. I can go further into the this, but it is an aside, the point I was demonstrating was that the habits and phrases of Orthodox Jews are not entirely new to me.</div>
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Now, I have explained that, I would hope that amie does not make assumptions about how Orthodox Jewish women spend their times on Friday in the day times, but I do not hold out hope. Even if it is true that Judy did bake her own challah, it does not mean that all Orthodox women do that. It is generalisation, and, in my opinion, an insult to many Orthodox Jewish women who work on Friday, in a paid job and not being at home as a housewife, until not particularly long before the sabbath comes in. If I reduced some of the Orthodox Jewish women I know to challah bakers, they would probably think I was quite sexist. And it is not just for that reason that I would never say that sort of thing.</div>
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Now, I have explained this. It is a shame that Judy did not even attempt to justify being on collective that published Yuval-Davis. It can also be noted that she has also not attempted to defend her repeated denunciations of mainstream Jewish communal bodies, leaders including “millionaires, billionaires” philanthropists.</div>
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On a more agreeable note, I concur with Judy on a general point and that is that I am appalled by the behaviour of some so-called “messianic Jews” and their movements.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Alec</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 1:34 pm</td></tr>
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Another thread about X where X =/= Michael Ezra has become about Michael Ezra.</div>
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~alec</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>amie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 3:00 pm</td></tr>
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Judy has set out why she has not chosen to engage with you, ME. I can’t blame her for not being prepared to oblige your whim to be her performing poodle. You are disappointed as you come her “for an argument.” It is a pity that the odious manner in which you put out your challenges actually stifle any real debate.</div>
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Alec summed it up best<br />
“the stated wish to be amused/entertained – goes to the nub of your conduct. Other ABL authors as well as BTL commenters see HP as a means to disseminate views they consider socially and politically significance, or to improve their knowledge.<br />
You are here only to derive amusement from ridiculing and rubbishing named individuals.<br />
You are the blogging equivalent of a child who pulls the legs off insects.”</div>
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And btw, baruch hashem is to thank God for something that has already happened. For a future event, I think b’ezrat hashem (with God’s help) is the phrase you are looking for.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 3:01 pm</td></tr>
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to be your performing poodle</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #fa4949;">Michael Ezra</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 5:20 pm</td></tr>
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amie,</div>
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Yes, I did come here for an argument. Yet despite your agreement with Alec who said, “Other ABL authors as well as BTL commenters see HP as a means to disseminate views they consider socially and politically significance, or to improve their knowledge,” it seems to me that you come here for an argument too. One only needs to consider why you keep returning to this thread. And in fact I have regularly disseminated my views on this site. I have expressed views on Marxist sects, on Noam Chomsky, on matters surrounding the Vietnam War, the Khmer Rouge, the minimum wage, and so-called defenders of Israel who really do not know their facts. Moreover, unlike some, I regularly cite scholarly sources for claims I am making that I believe to be important.</div>
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But if you wish to use analogies such as children pulling legs off insects, you yourself remind me of a bad disease, an irritant that keeps coming back, of which there is seemingly no cure.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>amie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 29 April 2012, 9:16 pm</td></tr>
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Well done, you are able to address me directly. That’s progress</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #fa4949;">Michael Ezra</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 30 April 2012, 8:02 am</td></tr>
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amie,</div>
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I find it amusing that you comment on how I address you. Not once in this thread have you addressed me by name, unlike for example your responses to alec where you do address him by name. (See, as an example of this your own comment 27 April 2012, 7:35 pm.) You tend to either not use my name or refer to me as “Ezra” and not by the far more polite and common form of address on blogs, my first name. But this does not surprise me. I have never really considered the relationship that you have with politeness to be similar to the one between a duck and water.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Disillusioned Lurker</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 1 May 2012, 12:52 am</td></tr>
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I will be glad when this poxy election is over, tbh……</div>
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Whatever the result.</div>
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</div>levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-39987865321340118082012-01-29T08:06:00.000+00:002012-01-29T08:06:15.318+00:00Finkelstein, the holocaust and Harry's Place<br />
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<a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2011/12/28/help-me-make-a-middle-east-reading-list/" rel="bookmark" style="color: #444444; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 5px; text-decoration: none;" title="Help me make a Middle East reading list">Help me make a Middle East reading list</a></h2>
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<span class="author" style="font-weight: bold;">Guest Post</span>, December 28th 2011, 9:15 pm</div>
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<em>This is a guest post by <a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #fa4949;">Matt Hill</a></em></div>
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Writing about the Middle East at Harry’s Place can feel like putting your hand in a pool full of flesh-stripping piranhas – and I mean that as a compliment. One of the milder criticisms I’ve received is that I may be unduly influenced by authors with a pro-Palestinian bias. Insofar as moderate Palestinians (like <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sari_Nusseibeh" style="color: #fa4949;">Sari Nusseibeh</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raja_Shehadeh" style="color: #fa4949;">Raja Shehadeh</a>) and liberal Zionists (like <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Segev" style="color: #fa4949;">Tom Segev</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Grossman" style="color: #fa4949;">David Grossman</a> predominate on my bookshelves, it’s true they display something of a leftward tilt.</div>
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I’m the kind of person who likes to stay home on Friday night and read (yes, I’m as exciting as I sound), but I still buy books faster than I can finish them. My bedroom looks a bit like a warehouse in a pulping plant. I half expect to end up like Leonard Bast from <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howards_End" style="color: #fa4949;">Howards End</a>, killed by an exemplary avalanche of books.</div>
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So I’m planning to use an upcoming spell in Israel as a kind of study break. Fond as I am of my second home, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth" style="color: #fa4949;">Nazareth</a>, it offers relatively few distractions, barring a sudden outbreak of war (not, mind you, an altogether trivial caveat, as I discovered in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War" style="color: #fa4949;">July 2006</a>). A few titles, as they say of footballers vying for a World Cup call-up, have already booked their seat on the plane. I’d be grateful if Harry’s Place readers could help me choose the rest by suggesting some of their favourites.</div>
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I have just two criteria as a reader: hedonism and promiscuity. My first loves were fiction and poetry, and while I no longer spend whole nights tangled in the bedsheets with Philip Roth, my undergraduate passion has ripened into long-term dependency. Meanwhile it’s usually history, polemic and biography that raise my pulse nowadays. Nonfiction may be less sexy and glamorous than its rival, but it has a worldly quality, a frisson of the real, that’s hard to beat.</div>
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So I’m looking for good writing of all kinds, especially history and political argument. My focus is on Israel-Palestine, but I’d like to read more about the wider Middle East too. I’m particularly interested in the ‘peace process’ up to the present day, and the status of Israel’s Palestinian citizens. And it’s axiomatic to me that some of the best books are those you can have a profitable argument with: there’s no point seeking out your own opinions repackaged between two covers. The only blacklisted books should be those that are hateful, or boring.</div>
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So, with those wide parameters in mind, what would you recommend I take to Israel? Which books on the subject do you consider indispensable; have changed the way you see the conflict; or have simply given you the most pleasure? Feel free to explain why, in as much or as little detail as you like.</div>
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I’ll get the ball rolling with some titles that have already claimed a coveted place in the squad. Any views on the following?</div>
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Tom Segev, <em><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/05/books/books-of-the-times-of-holocaust-survivors-and-palestine.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm" style="color: #fa4949;">The Seventh Million: The Israelis and the Holocaust</a></em></div>
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Gershom Gorenberg, <em><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/20/books/review/the-unmaking-of-israel-by-gershom-gorenberg-book-review.html?pagewanted=all" style="color: #fa4949;">The Unmaking of Israel</a></em></div>
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Edward Said, <em><a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-Place-Edward-W-Said/dp/1862073708" style="color: #fa4949;">Out of Place: A Memoir</a></em></div>
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Robin Wright, <em><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/11/books/review/rock-the-casbah-by-robin-wright-book-review.html?pagewanted=all" style="color: #fa4949;">Rock the Casbah: Rage and Rebellion Across the Arab World</a></em></div>
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George Packer, <em style="color: #fa4949;"><a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Assassins-Gate-America-Iraq/dp/0571230431" style="color: #fa4949;">The Assassin’s Gate: America in Iraq</a></em></div>
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<span class="smallallcaps bold" style="font-size: 10px; font-weight: 700; text-transform: uppercase;"> KEYWORDS:</span> <a href="http://hurryupharry.org/category/israelpalestine/" rel="category tag" style="color: #fa4949;" title="View all posts in Israel/Palestine">Israel/Palestine</a></div>
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dlevi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-18023119589254788582012-01-29T08:05:00.001+00:002012-01-29T08:05:43.609+00:00Whatever happened to YIISA?<br />
YIISA was the Yale Initiative for the Interdisciplinary Study of Anti-Semitism. I ask whatever happened to it because I noticed just recently that Dr David Hirsh, the main man at the Israel advocacy site, <i>Engage</i>, has posted a paper he produced for YIISA back in 2007 on the <i><a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2012/01/21/anti-zionism-and-antisemitism-cosmopolitan-reflections/">Engage</a></i> website thus:<br />
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Anti-Zionism and Antisemitism: Cosmopolitan Reflections – David Hirsh</h2>
<span class="submitted">January 21, 2012 — David Hirsh</span><br />
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<a href="http://eprints.gold.ac.uk/2061/" style="color: #027ac6; text-decoration: none;">David Hirsh’s 2007 paper is online here.</a></div>
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Hirsh, David. 2007. <em>Anti-Zionism and Antisemitism: Cosmopolitan Reflections</em>. Working Paper. Yale Initiative for the Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism (YIISA) Occasional Papers, New Haven, CT.</div>
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<strong>Abstract</strong></div>
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This paper aims to disentangle the difficult relationship between anti-Zionism and antisemitism. On one side, antisemitism appears as a pressing contemporary problem, intimately connected to an intensification of hostility to Israel. Opposing accounts downplay the fact of antisemitism and tend to treat the charge as an instrumental attempt to de-legitimize criticism of Israel. I address the central relationship both conceptually and through a number of empirical case studies which lie in the disputed territory between criticism and demonization. The paper focuses on current debates in the British public sphere and in particular on the campaign to boycott Israeli academia. Sociologically the paper seeks to develop a cosmopolitan framework to confront the methodological nationalism of both Zionism and anti-Zionism. It does not assume that exaggerated hostility to Israel is caused by underlying antisemitism but it explores the possibility that antisemitism may be an effect even of some antiracist forms of anti-Zionism.</div>
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Well, the link takes you to <i><a href="http://eprints.gold.ac.uk/2061/">Goldsmiths University</a></i>, Dr Hirsh's employer and the GU page has two links back to Yale, this: <span style="background-color: white; color: #464236; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 16px; text-align: -webkit-left;">Official URL: </span><a href="http://www.yale.edu/yiisa/workingpaper/hirsh/David%20Hirsh%20YIISA%20Working%20Paper1.pdf" style="background-color: white; color: #646464; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 16px; text-align: -webkit-left;">http://www.yale.edu/yiisa/workingpaper/hirsh/David...</a> and this, <a href="http://www.yale.edu/yiisa/index.html" style="background-color: white; color: #646464; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 16px; text-align: left;">Publisher</a> (or this: <a href="http://www.yale.edu/yiisa/index.html">http://www.yale.edu/yiisa/index.html</a> ).<br />
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Neither link works. Now it could be that they simply don't work or it could be that they have been removed because, as reported here last year, Yale no longer supports or hosts YIISA. But if the latter is the reason for the broken links, why are they still in place on Dr Hirsh's Goldsmiths page?<br />
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline" />levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-1854112589976699862011-12-31T09:05:00.000+00:002011-12-31T09:05:15.658+00:00Finkelstein and the holocaustI think this will be another <a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2011/12/31/norman-finkelstein-on-the-holocaust/">Harry's Place</a> post where comments get disappeared before their sell by date.
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Roscoe Turi</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 31 December 2011, 8:15 am</td></tr>
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From renowned Holocaust scholar (he practically invented the field of Holocaust Studies) and lifelong Republican Raul Hilberg:</div>
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Q: What are your thoughts on the current debates over how to interpret the Holocaust and its legacy in the work of people like Norman Finkelstein or Daniel Goldhagen?</div>
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Hilberg: Well Finkelstein is now maligned all over the place. There were obviously lobbies who tried to dislodge him from his position. Finkelstein is a political scientist. I believe he has a PhD degree from Princeton and, whatever you may think of Princeton, this is a pretty strong preparation to be a professional political scientist. He wrote to me a couple of times. He was the first one to take Goldhagen seriously. He attacked Goldhagen in a very long essay which I could never have written because I would have never had the patience. Goldhagen is part of an academic group that in my kind of research is a disaster…</div>
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Q: Why is that?</div>
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Hilberg: Because [Goldhagen] was totally wrong about everything. Totally wrong. Exceptionally wrong. In other words, this whole fury of his anti-Semitism was, at the root, that it was especially eliminationist anti-Semitism, was totally absurd. He talks about anti-Semitism among Germans, Estonians, Ukrainians, Latvians, and Lithuanians, but where did this unique eliminationist anti-Semitism come from? It is just totally absurd. I mean, totally off the wall, you know, and factually without any basis. Finkelstein took this seriously. I took it less seriously, but I was a latecomer in attacking this Goldhagen fellow.</div>
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Now Finkelstein had a second point, which, in my opinion, was one hundred percent correct and that is that the response to the issue of the Swiss banks and German industry, which had coincided during the War, was not only coercive on the part of the Jews who mobilized, but also on the part of all the insurance commissioners, the Senate, the House, and the critical committees. The only thing they could not break through was to the courts, which still have independence. So they lost at court, but they threatened people like Alan Hevesi in New York. They could make threats because Swiss banks wanted to expand here. For Finkelstein, this was naked extortion and I’m not sure who agreed with him except for me and I said so openly. In fact, I said so to the press in maybe seven countries.</div>
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The press did not expect my answer. The World Jewish Congress was led by a man who was appeared to be from his own autobiographical statements to be totally, not even average, but like a child almost. What this tycoon, who took over the World Jewish Congress, was saying was totally preposterous. The claims lawyers, joined by the World Jewish Congress, made an incredible display of totally inappropriate behavior.</div>
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Now when he talks about the Arabs, some Jews feel that he is also anti-Zionist, that he is anti-Israel; that he seems to always emphasize the suffering of the Arabs. I do not join him in this particular venture because I have my own view, but you cannot say he is altogether wrong either. Would you like to be an Arab citizen in Israel? Think of the doors that are closed. You may eat better and have a better income than if you lived in a slum in Cairo. The great irony is that the economic condition of Israeli Arabs is considerably better than the proletariat in some other Arab countries, but a person needs something more. A person needs a feeling of dignity. Think of the security check points. It is a life that certainly something ought to be done about it in one way or another. This particular battle cannot be fought forever. It cannot be. The Israelis will tire of it. The Israelis will simply tire of mistrusting people. It is not possible to go on this way forever. Finkelstein has the corner on the germ of correct vision in these matters because he is pretty sharp. More often than not, especially with regard to these other matters like Goldhagen and the Swiss banks he has been right.</div>
</div>levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-85558074383642869012011-11-24T21:46:00.001+00:002011-11-24T21:48:56.158+00:00Harry's Place guest upsets his hostsI've grabbed this guest post from <i><a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2011/11/21/unesco-the-west-bank-and-the-tree-of-life/">Harry's Place</a></i> together with the comments so far because, of necessity, HP deletes its comments after about a week or so and they are too informative (about HP) to let go:<br />
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<a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2011/11/21/unesco-the-west-bank-and-the-tree-of-life/" rel="bookmark" style="color: #444444; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 5px; text-decoration: none;" title="UNESCO, the West Bank and the Tree of Life">UNESCO, the West Bank and the Tree of Life</a></h2>
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<span class="author" style="font-weight: bold;">Guest Post</span>, November 21st 2011, 5:01 pm</div>
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<em>This is a guest post by <a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></em></div>
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Since <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNESCO" style="color: #d70606;">UNESCO</a> made the ’state’ of Palestine its <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_UNESCO" style="color: #d70606;">194th member</a> last month, press coverage has focussed on the move’s <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/nov/01/obama-palestine-unesco-membership%3Fnewsfeed%3Dtrue" style="color: #d70606;">political implications</a>. The UN culture agency may be feeling a little <a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/worldview/unesco-facing-dire-funding-shortfall-puts-out-the-begging-bowl/article2239396/%3Futm_medium%3DFeeds%253A%2520RSS%252FAtom%26utm_source%3DWorld%26utm_content%3D2239396" style="color: #d70606;">cash-strapped</a> right now – a US law automatically defunds any international body that admits Palestine – but it will want to prove the decision was more than a diplomatic stunt. And I have just the job for that purpose.<br />
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Down at the <a href="http://geology.com/below-sea-level/" style="color: #d70606;">bottom of the world</a>, just outside the West Bank town of<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho" style="color: #d70606;">Jericho</a>, lies an early Muslim archeological wonder. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hisham%27s_Palace" style="color: #d70606;">Hisham’s Palace</a> was an 8th century <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad" style="color: #d70606;">Umayyad</a> ruler’s winter retreat until an earthquake destroyed it. Its stunning ruins contain the exquisite <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/39631091@N03/5497134201/" style="color: #d70606;">‘Tree of Life’ mosaic</a>, a mysterious depiction of a lion attacking a deer under a mythical tree – making it a priceless rarity in representation-averse Islamic art.</div>
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And it’s covered in shit.When I visited the site this summer, it had plainly been subject to years of disregard. The <a href="http://globalheritagefund.org/" style="color: #d70606;">Global Heritage Fund</a> has <a href="http://globalheritagefund.org/index.php/what_we_do/sites_on_the_verge/" style="color: #d70606;">listed</a> it as one of twelve historic treasures that, if we don’t act now, we’re in danger of losing forever. It’s precisely such emergencies that make UNESCO too important for US political subterfuge.</div>
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The seeming absence of management means anyone could stroll in and help themselves to a serving of ancient palace. Though this makes for an exciting visit – you can wander amongst toppled pillars and arches, running your fingers along the weathered sandstone – it’s not just tourists who enjoy such easy access. Among other signs of damage to the complex, the celebrated mosaic is thickly caked in avian effluent.</div>
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Unlike some of Palestine’s other historical treasures – like the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs" style="color: #d70606;">Cave of the Patriarchs</a> at Hebron, not to mention the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haram_al-Sharif" style="color: #d70606;">Haram al-Sharif</a> in Jerusalem – Hisham’s Palace is in West Bank <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_A" style="color: #d70606;">Area A</a>, which, in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_accords" style="color: #d70606;">Oslo</a>-speak, means it’s under Palestinian jurisdiction. In other words its scandalous state (imagine leaving a Rembrandt out for a few hours in Trafalgar Square) is entirely the fault of the Palestinian Authority. There’s no blaming the Zionists for this one.</div>
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The PA’s deplorable neglect of Hisham’s Palace could, sadly, stand as a metaphor for its leadership of the Palestinian people. Since it was formed in 1994 – to oversee and legitimise Israel’s occupation, many <a href="http://www.jkcook.net/Articles3/0546.htm" style="color: #d70606;">argue</a> – it’s become a global <a href="http://www.phrmg.org/Corruption%2520in%2520the%2520Palestinian%2520Authority.htm" style="color: #d70606;">byword for corruption</a>. In the fat years after Oslo, it allowed countless millions – donated by the international community to a<a href="http://www.unrwa.org/etemplate.php%3Fid%3D253" style="color: #d70606;">half-refugee</a> population – to be pocketed by <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/feb/06/israel" style="color: #d70606;">shameless officials</a>. The roads into major West Bank towns are flagrantly vulgarised by the mansions of middling bureaucrats and ’security contractors’, parasites on human misery.</div>
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Even those who think the occupation is a necessary evil can see the suffering it causes. But let nobody deny the role of the Palestinians’ own leaders in compounding it.</div>
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Fittingly, some believe the ‘Tree of Life’ tableau symbolises good and bad government. The Palestinians have had plenty of the latter, but UNESCO can play a small part in undoing its damage by restoring the mosaic to its former magnificence.</div>
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What’s more, the deed would carry its own quiet symbolism: of a world uniting to help a nation rise up out of its ruins.</div>
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<span class="smallallcaps bold" style="font-size: 10px; font-weight: 700; text-transform: uppercase;">KEYWORDS:</span> <a href="http://hurryupharry.org/category/palestinians/" rel="category tag" style="color: #d70606;" title="View all posts in Palestinians">Palestinians</a>.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:13 pm</td></tr>
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Its stunning ruins contain the exquisite ‘Tree of Life’ mosaic, a mysterious depiction of a lion attacking a deer under a mythical tree – making it a priceless rarity in representation-averse Islamic art.</div>
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Well, sort of – unless you take into account the meadows, date palms, streams running by classical villas all depicted on the mosaics of the similarly old and Umayyad Great Mosque in Damascus. Then there are the equally aged if more abstract mosaics of the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, itself an Umayyid construction.</div>
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All laboured over by a mostly Christian community of craftsmen who communicated onto the walls, ceilings and domes of the buildings for their new, Umayyad Muslim masters in a language they knew best.</div>
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Islamic puritan tendencies in the visual arts were always there, but became dominant later. These marvelous Umayyad structures attest to that which was later set aside.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:17 pm</td></tr>
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What makes Hisham’s Palace special is that its mosaics occur in a non-religious setting. They as much illustrate a continuity between the style of the late Hellenistic country house of a Byzantine worthy and the pleasure palaces of early medieval Muslim Arab rulers in Syria.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:18 pm</td></tr>
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I salute your evidently superior knowledge – but I didn’t say it was unique, just rare. Interesting comment though, thanks.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lynne T</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:18 pm</td></tr>
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“There’s no blaming the Zionists for this one.”</div>
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What an ascription to use in the context of governance in the occupied territorities. “Zionists” and not the “Israeli government”.</div>
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For the record, the Israeli authorities are respectful of antiquities, whether Jewish, Christian, Muslim or whatever. Allegations from the Palestinians about Israel carrying on activities that endanger sites like the Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock have invariably been proven false.</div>
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What an asshole you are, Mattie, even when you are trying to prove you aren’t.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Barad</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:19 pm</td></tr>
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“Unlike some of Palestine’s other historical treasures – like the Cave of the Patriarchs at Hebron, not to mention the Haram al-Sharif in Jerusalem –”</div>
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I think you mean stolen Jewish historical sites.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #d70606;">Alan A</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:19 pm</td></tr>
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Matt</div>
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You say of the Palestinian Authority that it was established:</div>
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“– to oversee and legitimise Israel’s occupation, many argue –”</div>
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That links to Jonathan Cook’s website, which seems presently to be down. However the article can be read <a href="http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:pjOJtyhKYlAJ:www.jkcook.net/Articles3/0546.htm+http://www.jkcook.net/Articles3/0546.htm&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">here</a>.</div>
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Jonathan Cook is a <a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2011/09/28/jonathan-cook-i-have-no-idea-whether-atzmon-has-expressed-anti-semitic-views/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">supporter</a> of the antisemite campaigner, Gilad Atzmon, who is currently the subject of a campaign by Hope not Hate.</div>
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Look, I’m not sure what the purpose of this article is. Few people have any illusions at the incompetence and corruption of the Palestinian Authority. We confidently expect the PA to destroy as much architectural heritage as it can, particularly if it evidences Jewish life in the areas they control. So this isn’t a surprise.</div>
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But this is a basic problem with you, and your writing. Perhaps you think that, by being critical of the PA, you’re endearing yourself in some way to people who sympathy with Israelis, and establishing a reputation as a fair dealer.</div>
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If that’s what you’re hoping to do, then why reference a nut like Jonathan Cook at all? The only impression you create is that you’re the sort of person who reads people like Jonathan Cook, and that you have no idea of how toxic he is.</div>
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I’m not suggesting you amend this piece to that end. I just wonder whether you have any idea how hopeless you appear?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:20 pm</td></tr>
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If you wanted a real eye-opener, the archeology museum in Damascus had lots of mosaics from pre-Islamic times against which you could compare Umayyad mosaics. Spread across time, they are however strikingly both the products of the clearly same schools of artisanship and artistry at work in the region.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:21 pm</td></tr>
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Lynne T,</div>
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I was parodying the way Arabs often talk! Surely that’s obvious!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #d70606;">Alan A</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:22 pm</td></tr>
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Well don’t parody an ethnic group. That is considered quite racist and improper.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:27 pm</td></tr>
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Alan A,</div>
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I didn’t know Cook supports Atzmon. Yes, I sometimes read his stuff. I think he’s extreme, very extreme at times, though I’ve seen no evidence he’s an antisemite, at least not till you mentioned this.</div>
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It’s clear I wasnt necessarily endorsing this view, or I would have said ‘created to legitimise and oversee the occupation’. I do think it’s an arguable point, so I said ome argue it. Cook is very much the type who argues it. You’re working very hard to find something to be outraged about here.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:28 pm</td></tr>
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I had thought Matt was parodying a certain sort of anti-zionist, but with no racial implications.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #d70606;">Alan A</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:31 pm</td></tr>
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I just wonder why you’ve bothered with this piece. Why not run it on a website that focuses on Palestinian state building, instead?</div>
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If you think Cook is extreme, then why are you citing him at all? Isn’t this basically your problem. Your views are formed by reading all sorts of potty people with frothing attitudes, and then you read some Israeli liberals. You split the difference. As a result, your antennae and bearings are just a little bit messed up.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:32 pm</td></tr>
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Thanks for the compliment, Matt; but I think I cannot of been making myself clear.</div>
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My comment that “Islamic puritan tendencies in the visual arts were always there, but became dominant later.” This is a clue to what I am driving at.</div>
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You correctly identify the culprit:</div>
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[The Tree of Life mosaic's] scandalous state (imagine leaving a Rembrandt out for a few hours in Trafalgar Square) is entirely the fault of the Palestinian Authority.</div>
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Correctomundo.</div>
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However, you implicate the cause for this dereliction in the rampant corruption of the PA:</div>
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[The PA has] become a global byword for corruption. In the fat years after Oslo, it allowed countless millions – donated by the international community to a half-refugee population – to be pocketed by shameless officials.</div>
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<div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">
But that is only half the story.</div>
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The other half involves the connivance of persuasive, popularist religious bigots, who have mounted an equally shameless campaign of cultural illiteracy and vandalism wrapped up in the big black flag of Islamist intolerance and conservative literalist dogma. These people do not neglect the monuments of the past because they cannot profit from them: no, they vandalise the monuments of the past and seek their destruction as a matter of zealous religious principle. This principle being the antithesis of Umayyad appreciation and love of nature – the pervasive puritan iconoclasm that has dominated Islam ever since.</div>
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One hand shakes the other, as they say.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #d70606;">Alan A</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:36 pm</td></tr>
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Although … it has become an interesting discussion on the aesthetic sentiments of the Umayyad caliphate so… uh…</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:36 pm</td></tr>
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Oh, sheesh, here we go again – yet another spittle-flecked, ignorant attack on Israel by the usual suspect.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Stan</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:40 pm</td></tr>
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From the post<br />
“There’s no blaming the Zionists for this one.”</div>
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Your just not being creative enough.</div>
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Stan</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:45 pm</td></tr>
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Hat Tip to Israelinurse</div>
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<i>You’re going to love this…</i></div>
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<i>UNESCO has made Syria a member of the committee on Human Rights.</i></div>
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<i><a href="http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/unesco-promotes-syria-human-rights-position_609183.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/unesco-promotes-syria-human-rights-position_609183.html</a></i></div>
<br />
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:49 pm</td></tr>
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‘I just wonder why you’ve bothered with this piece. Why not run it on a website that focuses on Palestinian state building, instead?’</div>
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Because these are my views and Harry’s Place was good enough to host them. You seem to be suggesting only writers who share your opinions, or the opinions normally posted around here, should be hosted by Harry’s Place. Which is odd, considering the Orwell quote at the top of this page. If you disagree with something in it, say so. But I want to engage with readers at HP precisely because we often have different views. I think that can make for fruitful discussion. I’m sorry you don’t like my writing, Alan A, but I don’t think this is an antisemitic screed. In fact I’m mystified you’re so angry about it.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:53 pm</td></tr>
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Alan – I think Matt is wiling both to accept and engage with different points of view. I’m sure he would take on board any info about somone supporting Atzmon or whatever. My sense is that he didn’t just want to ‘preach to the converted’ at Lib Con, yet neither did he want to antagonise people here, gratuitously – just be contrarian.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Stan</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:54 pm</td></tr>
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Hi Matt,<br />
I for one, appreciate the piece. I would encourage you to try to post it on “pro-Palestian” websites.</div>
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Stan</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>M=o=r=g=y</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:55 pm</td></tr>
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Abu Faris, I could talk for hours on the subject of the Picatrix and al-Majriti.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:56 pm</td></tr>
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Alan A,</div>
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‘If you think Cook is extreme, then why are you citing him at all?’</div>
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I find he often challenges my liberal, centre-left assumptions, and forces me to refine my views in contradistinction to his. Again, I think it’s bizarre that you seem to believe we should only read writers we agree with. I recently read George Bush’s presidential memoirs, and I loathe the man.</div>
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‘Isn’t this basically your problem. Your views are formed by reading all sorts of potty people with frothing attitudes, and then you read some Israeli liberals. You split the difference. As a result, your antennae and bearings are just a little bit messed up.’</div>
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What do you know about what I read? If you’d like to know, instead of making unsubstantiated guesses, there are two places where I’ve publicly posted about books I’ve read on this topic.</div>
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These are my top five Israel-Palestine books:<a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/2011/10/my-five-top-books-about-israel.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/2011/10/my-five-top-books-about-israel.html</a></div>
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And I mention some of my recent books here:<a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/2011/11/middle-east-writing-and-reading.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/2011/11/middle-east-writing-and-reading.html</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.rosiebell.co.uk/" style="color: #d70606;">KB Player</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:57 pm</td></tr>
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I’ve seen the Umayyad mosque and wondered at those beautiful mosaics, which as Abu F says, represent natural forms. Shortly beforehand I’d been in the Topkapi Palace in Istanbul where the decoration is almost entirely abstract, and very gorgeous. Seeing representational art is quite a shock in an Islamic context.</div>
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The Umayyad mosque is one of the most beautiful buildings I’ve ever seen.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:57 pm</td></tr>
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<i>And it’s covered in shit.When I visited the site this summer, it had plainly been subject to years of disregard. The Global Heritage Fund has listed it as one of twelve historic treasures that, if we don’t act now, we’re in danger of losing forever. It’s precisely such emergencies that make UNESCO too important for US political subterfuge.</i></div>
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So, do we presume it ONLY became “covered in shit” as soon as the USA decided to defund UNESCO? Or, has it been like that for more than a few weeks while the USA WAS funding UNESCO.</div>
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Perhaps “covered in shit” is a euphimism for teh Palestinians concern about antiquities. They seem to have this nasty habit of destroying them, especially if it has anything to do with Jews.</div>
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<i>What an asshole you are, Mattie, even when you are trying to prove you aren’t</i></div>
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Says Lynne T as a preview to what Alan A at 5:19 pm in many more words and so well argued.</div>
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<i>I didn’t know Cook supports Atzmon. Yes, I sometimes read his stuff. I think he’s extreme, very extreme at times, though I’ve seen no evidence he’s an antisemite, at least not till you mentioned this.</i></div>
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Doh!!!!</div>
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Then you confirmed it. :)</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:02 pm</td></tr>
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Stan,</div>
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Thanks. I would gladly post it at a ‘pro-Palestinian’ site because it criticises the Palestinian leadership, and unlike Alan A, I think it’s important to challenge people’s assumptions (although I realise the PA isn’t exactly wildly popular with many pro-Palestinians).</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Cipriano</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:04 pm</td></tr>
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No, Matt’s point is perfectly good. It brings my continuing dilemnmna into focus: should we be setting our own agenda for Palestinian development, which might make for stronger development but which they probably won’t listen to and which might anyway sound a bit “imperialist”: or whether we should be allowing them to set their own agenda, which in my case would mean switching off completely until the first scintilla of evidence emerges that any influential Palestinian has anything to say worth listening to. (If this were Twitter I’d finish with #pointlesstinians)</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:04 pm</td></tr>
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‘So, do we presume it ONLY became “covered in shit” as soon as the USA decided to defund UNESCO? Or, has it been like that for more than a few weeks while the USA WAS funding UNESCO.’</div>
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Um, no. UNESCO has had nothing to do with Hisham’s Palace so far. I explicitly blame the PA for the state of the mosaic, which by its appearance has clearly been neglected for years. I don’t think that’s a reasonable interpretation of what I was saying.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Gabriel</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:04 pm</td></tr>
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“Oh, sheesh, here we go again – yet another spittle-flecked, ignorant attack on Israel by the usual suspect.”</div>
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How is this piece an attack on Israel?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Discredited Andrew</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:05 pm</td></tr>
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“Which is odd, considering the Orwell quote at the top of this page.”</div>
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That’s always been ironic, I think. Its a stupid quote. If you don’t want to hear a point of view then its not a loss to anybody’s liberty. Harry always hated Orwell (a stalinist thing).</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:05 pm</td></tr>
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<i>Because these are my views and Harry’s Place was good enough to host them.</i></div>
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HP is good enough to sometimes host threads from people who’s opinions they generally don’t go overboard on but who are given the opportunity to explain themselves. Sometimes in a right of reply.</div>
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<i>You seem to be suggesting only writers who share your opinions, or the opinions normally posted around here, should be hosted by Harry’s Place.</i></div>
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Absolutely NOT! How dull it would make HP to only have people that posters generally agree with. Matt, as far as I am concerned you are welcome to post at HP as often as you like because you are such great entertainment and fun. Its great to see a liberal with little grasp of Israel/Palestinian politics flounder so badly. Its hoped you will take your new learnings back to the nest and help some fellow travellers.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:07 pm</td></tr>
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Matt</div>
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I think that the criticism you want to make of the Palestinian leadership needs to be hand-in-hand with a criticism of the Islamists who make up a sizable and de facto component of that leadership.</div>
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The making of an ideological breach with Islamism and an alliance with progressive strands within Zionism is of the essence of progressive and liberal struggle in the modernArab world, imho.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:12 pm</td></tr>
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And so to labour the analogy: the issues surrounding the neglect of the mosaic (both the corrupt practices of guardians and the wishes of the religious nutters to extirpate “non-Islamic” artifacts) mirror the issues surrounding the Palestinian leadership – corruption *and* Islamism.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:19 pm</td></tr>
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‘Look, I’m not sure what the purpose of this article is.’</div>
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The main point is to argue that UNEScO should do something about a valuable cultural relic that’s in danger of being lost.</div>
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‘But this is a basic problem with you, and your writing. Perhaps you think that, by being critical of the PA, you’re endearing yourself in some way to people who sympathy with Israelis, and establishing a reputation as a fair dealer.’</div>
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So when you disagree with me, I’m a borderline racist anti-Israeli zealot. And when you agree, I’m cynically trying to curry your favour. Look at it from my point of view: can you see why I feel I can’t win here?</div>
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Actually, I have no real intention to ‘endear’ myself to anyone; no matter how stupid and ill-informed you think I am, I’m afraid I actually believe everything I say. There’s no contradiction between having some strong criticisms of Israel and thinking the PA is incompetent – in fact many people think just that.</div>
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Far from expecting to endear myself to you, I actually mentioned to the site editor when I submitted this piece that I’d be interested to see how one or two people here manage to read what’s basically a piece about architecture as violent call to destroy Israel. I have a slightly inevitable sense that I’ll never be able to convince some people here I’m reasonable, sincere and principled. I guess I just know I’m not an anti-semite or a hater of Israel, and as long as all my Jewish and Israeli friends agree with me, I’m not too worried what some guy on the internet thinks of me.</div>
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However, I’m a little disappointed in you, Alan A, because you genuinely seem intelligent. So, no, I don’t particularly like to endear myself to you; but I do wish you would credit me with sincerity and reasonableness, even if you strongly disagree with me.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:20 pm</td></tr>
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<i>So, do we presume it ONLY became “covered in shit” as soon as the USA decided to defund UNESCO? Or, has it been like that for more than a few weeks while the USA WAS funding UNESCO.’</i></div>
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<i>Um, no. UNESCO has had nothing to do with Hisham’s Palace so far. I explicitly blame the PA for the state of the mosaic, which by its appearance has clearly been neglected for years. I don’t think that’s a reasonable interpretation of what I was saying.</i></div>
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Oh dear!</div>
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My point was TOO subtle for you. What the F… has USA decision to defund UNESCO got to do with the PA neglecting antiquities? I ask because you inserted this apparent irrelevance into your article. What relevance does USA defunding have to your point?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:25 pm</td></tr>
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‘Oh, sheesh, here we go again – yet another spittle-flecked, ignorant attack on Israel by the usual suspect.’</div>
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I confess, I somewhat despair. This is an attack on the Palestinian Authority, if anything. There is nothing here that attacks Israel. I have many views that are critical of Israel, just as I’m often critical of the PA – I think it would be weird to find a government out there that doesn’t make big mistakes – but it just so happens there’s no attack on Israel in this piece.</div>
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At least Alan A evidently read the piece before contriving to find vile, nasty anti-Israeli opinions in there. Did you actually read it?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Barad</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:29 pm</td></tr>
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“If you think Cook is extreme, then why are you citing him at all?”</div>
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I was reading a fascinating book by that Austrian chappy last week. He was a bit harsh on the Jews for my taste but what he had to say about rail infrastructure was quite thought-provoking…</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:32 pm</td></tr>
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‘Oh dear!<br />
My point was TOO subtle for you. What the F… has USA decision to defund UNESCO got to do with the PA neglecting antiquities? I ask because you inserted this apparent irrelevance into your article. What relevance does USA defunding have to your point?’</div>
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I don’t think you’ll often be accused of an excess of subtlety, Dcook.</div>
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My point is UNESCO is important because there are governments who can’t or won’t take care of cultural treasures. Obviously it would be nice if all governments took total responsibility for such relics, making UNESCO redundant. But that’s not the case.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:35 pm</td></tr>
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Barad,</div>
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I don’t think Jonathan cook is in any way comparable to Hitler, and I think it’s shameful of you to resort to such analogies so easily. I do not believe Jonathan cook has killed six million Jews, though as always I am ready to change my view if you can provide evidence to the contrary.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:42 pm</td></tr>
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Alan A,</div>
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‘Well don’t parody an ethnic group. That is considered quite racist and improper.’</div>
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Aren’t you ashamed of yourself, Alan A? You know full well what I was doing in that sentence; you don’t believe it was racist at all. It was a sarcastic reference to the way certain Arabs or anti-Israelis like to talk. I dare say it’s the kind of thing you’d say. So why do you just blithely accuse me of racism? I understand you don’t like me, and I’m sorry about that, but you clearly have little to say about the matter at hand – unlike, for instance, Abu Faris – so you’re just trying to ruin the discussion by making totally insincere and slanderous implications. You should take that back, or clarify you don’t think I’ve said anything racist here. It’s a heavy charge to make against someone and throwing the accusation around trivially just trivialises the important fact that real racism exists and needs to be combatted.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:44 pm</td></tr>
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<i>You should take that back</i></div>
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or I’ll complain to mummy.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:47 pm</td></tr>
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<i>I confess, I somewhat despair</i></div>
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Awe, diddums.</div>
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<i>There is nothing here that attacks Israel.<br />
… There’s no blaming <b>the Zionists</b> for this one.</i></div>
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You don’t even know any more when you use nasty, swivel-eyed phrases, is that it?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:47 pm</td></tr>
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<i>However, I’m a little disappointed in you, Alan A, because you genuinely seem intelligent</i></div>
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Let’s all do a high fives with Alan A for seeming to be intelligent as far as Matt is concerned. :) You’ve got my palms Alan!</div>
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<i>I have a slightly inevitable sense that I’ll never be able to convince some people here I’m reasonable, sincere and principled.</i></div>
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Ah, “Liberty is theight to……..”</div>
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You know the rest. :)</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:50 pm</td></tr>
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Sarah,</div>
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<i>I think Matt is wiling both to accept and engage with different points of view</i></div>
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This is off the wall even for you. Hill managed to evade and avoid the point about Res. 242 for something like 50 posts (the ones he wrote, I mean) a few days ago.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:52 pm</td></tr>
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<i>However, I’m a little disappointed in you, Alan A, because you genuinely seem intelligent</i></div>
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I don’t think you even realise how embarassingly pompous, condescending and self-important you are.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:52 pm</td></tr>
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Abu faris,</div>
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‘you implicate the cause for this dereliction in the rampant corruption of the PA:<br />
But that is only half the story.<br />
The other half involves the connivance of persuasive, popularist religious bigots, who have mounted an equally shameless campaign of cultural illiteracy and vandalism wrapped up in the big black flag of Islamist intolerance and conservative literalist dogma. These people do not neglect the monuments of the past because they cannot profit from them: no, they vandalise the monuments of the past and seek their destruction as a matter of zealous religious principle. This principle being the antithesis of Umayyad appreciation and love of nature – the pervasive puritan iconoclasm that has dominated Islam ever since.<br />
One hand shakes the other, as they say.’</div>
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That’s an interesting point, just like all your posts in this thread. I’m sorry I haven’t been able to give your points the attention they deserve, but I’ve been trying to refute various posters who seem to have mistaken this piece for a call to destroy Israel. It’s disappointing, because views like yours – informed, well-argued – should be given the space and consideration they deserve.</div>
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So you think the poor state of Hisham’s Palace is, in large part, deliberate, because the PA is influenced by fundamentalist Islamicists who despise art and beauty and care little for the upkeep of such ancient treasures?</div>
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That’s an interesting view. As you may know, many Muslims believe Hisham’s Palace was the site of depraved, scandalous doings – in fact I’ve heard Jericho locals refer to it as the ‘house of sin’ and explain that it was used as a whorehouse.</div>
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When I looked into this claim it seems that the only basis for it is that the representation-focussed art and the design of the palace is considered decadent by Islamic standards, leading some to believe its owner was decadent, sinful, and so on.</div>
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But would the PA deliberately sabotage a potentially lucrative source of tourist income?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:54 pm</td></tr>
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<i>Obviously it would be nice if all governments took total responsibility for such relics, making UNESCO redundant</i></div>
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I’ve had an idea. Correct me if this seems a bit off-the-wall but aren’t there loads of Arab countries, Turkey and Greece (no scrub Greece!) who have a bit of dosh and a great love of wishing to preserve antiquities? Wouldn’t it be nice if they took care of it?</div>
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Or, call in the Taliban. They’ll have it raised to the ground quicker than you can say “ancient religious statues”.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:55 pm</td></tr>
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‘Let’s all do a high fives with Alan A for seeming to be intelligent as far as Matt is concerned. :) You’ve got my palms Alan!<br />
I have a slightly inevitable sense that I’ll never be able to convince some people here I’m reasonable, sincere and principled.<br />
Ah, “Liberty is theight to……..”<br />
You know the rest. :)’</div>
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Thanks for that contribution, Dcook. Do you mind if I borrow your expertise by quoting you next time I’m talking about Islamic art?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarka</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:58 pm</td></tr>
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Abu Faris<br />
It’s a good point that PA hasn’t been neglecting such sites out of corruption, but just because they are not a priority with anyone there. Despite the glories of Islamic heritage, the present mood of revivalist Islam is almost as hostile to such stuff as it is to non-Islamic heritage.</div>
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I do like the Tree of Life though – is it true that this is the only original exemplar of the particular Tree with lion jumping on gazelle?</div>
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I have a personal interest – because I have it on my kitchen wall along with other tile mosaics recently purchased from the Armenian Pottery in Jerusalem – and pleasingly the subject of huge admiration from all my friends…</div>
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These Armenian chaps, Christian Israelis – who were really nice and helpful and not even expensive – are descendants of a family imported a century ago to work on mosques.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:02 pm</td></tr>
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‘I’ve had an idea. Correct me if this seems a bit off-the-wall but aren’t there loads of Arab countries, Turkey and Greece (no scrub Greece!) who have a bit of dosh and a great love of wishing to preserve antiquities? Wouldn’t it be nice if they took care of it?’</div>
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Turkey and Greece are not, I believe, Arab countries. I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. Are you saying that Arabs (plus Turkey and Greece, for some reason) should look after Arab cultural relics; that Jews should look after Jewish cultural relics; that blacks should look after their own cultural relics; and so on? That seem to be the implication – that each ethnic group has a duty and interest in looking after its own culture, to the exclusion of the rest of us. Though I admit I’m throw by this Turkey and Greece business. I suppose it’s possible you’re being too subtle for me, but you seem to be implying that there’s no such thing as cultural relics that people, in general, might have good reasons to preserve.</div>
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Don’t you think it would be sad if a beautiful piece of Umayyad art was destroyed forever? Or do you think only Arabs would have any business being bothered?</div>
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I think you must definitely be too subtle for me.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:09 pm</td></tr>
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Peter,</div>
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I think I make a lot of effort to engage with posters below the line. But you may have noticed my pieces attract a lot of adverse comment, so I can’t always reply to every one. Sometimes I might ignore a post by accident. Other times it’s because I think the post is not worth replying to, because in my view it’s a worthless point. Sometimes I don’t want to be rude, so I ignore a post that’s not worth replying to, and then, if the author protests, I pretend I just hadn’t seen it.</div>
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Anyway, I’m sorry, I guess I didn’t see your post.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #d70606;">Alan A</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:10 pm</td></tr>
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ha ha ha ha ha</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #d70606;">Alan A</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:11 pm</td></tr>
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“But would the PA deliberately sabotage a potentially lucrative source of tourist income?”</div>
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It appears to be quite good at sabotaging its own statehood. So I’d guess: yes.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nate</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:12 pm</td></tr>
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Matt,<br />
I have a hard time understanding why you are still allowed to write here. My feeling is that HP is trying to raise advertising money because through how many page clicks your articles get as people are outraged by your naive stances. I’ll ignore for a moment that you’ve decided that the Temple Mount and the Cave of the Patriarchs are Palestinian sites, rather than Jewish sites – a description that betrays much about your views. Are you seriously implying though, that Palestinians despair over this disrepair? Because the Palestinians are actively involved in the destruction of archeological treasures, much more actively than the neglect of which you speak. How about the way they treat Joseph’s Tomb by burning it and spraypainting it, while pretending that it is just as important to them as it is to the Jews? Or how the Waqf digs up the Temple Mount with heavy machinery to destroy Jewish traces (which have later been found in the landfills) without either UNESCO or Palestinians, or people like you saying a word? Or how they have adopted Rachel’s Tomb and other Jewish sites as “mosques” with full UNESCO backing? UNESCO, through action and ommission, has been complicit in the Palestinian rewriting of history and destroying of Jewish heritage, and yet you point to how important UNESCO is in preserving a site that they clearly haven’t shown interest in before and that is entirely the responsibility of the Palestinians. How is this post relevant to anything? Literally. Anything? And how would it symbolize “a world uniting to help a nation rise up out of its ruins?” when that nation has shown no interest in this act, or in rising up, and when the leadership of this nation (which often would be presumed to represent that nation) is the party guilty of negligence? And how has this nation ever been “ruined”? And how would engaging in a project that no one in the region seems to care about, somehow prove that the UNESCO moves was more than a stunt? And why are you so desperate to give that stunt cover? I can’t even begin to wrap my head around these ramblings.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lynne T</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:13 pm</td></tr>
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Matt Hill<br />
21 November 2011, 5:21 pm</div>
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Obviously, your attempt at paroday wasn’t obvious.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:13 pm</td></tr>
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As you may know, many Muslims believe Hisham’s Palace was the site of depraved, scandalous doings – in fact I’ve heard Jericho locals refer to it as the ‘house of sin’ and explain that it was used as a whorehouse.</div>
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When I looked into this claim it seems that the only basis for it is that the representation-focussed art and the design of the palace is considered decadent by Islamic standards, leading some to believe its owner was decadent, sinful, and so on.</div>
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But would the PA deliberately sabotage a potentially lucrative source of tourist income?</div>
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I think there is an element of the anti-decadent movement of Islamism in all this – however, I think the tragedy that you describe unfolding at that incredibly important archaeological site is more the *consequence* of the exigent collision of blind greed *and* Islamist fervour – they both have a vested interest in doing nothing to preserve this site. The local bureaucrats out of interest for their pockets, the Islamists for their own religious-political ends. Further, one seems to support the other by default – the Islamists can rely on the local curators to let the hated thing slip into decay because of the latters’ greed; the local curators can use Islamist language to excuse their thieving ways with the funds needed for preservation. Everyone’s happy.</div>
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Incidentally, the alleged venality and sensualism of the Umayyad form part of the negative propaganda that issued from both eventual successors of that dynasty of Caliphs, the Abbasid Caliphate and from Shi’a opponents of the Umayyad. It continues to this day.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:19 pm</td></tr>
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Sarka</div>
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This from Syria:</div>
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<a href="http://www.bdtw.tv/files/bdtw.tv/images/lion%20and%20gazelle%20mosaic.JPG" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://www.bdtw.tv/files/bdtw.tv/images/lion%20and%20gazelle%20mosaic.JPG</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:26 pm</td></tr>
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RE: AngryPeter: ‘Oh, sheesh, here we go again – yet another spittle-flecked, ignorant attack on Israel by the usual suspect.’</div>
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Matt: I confess, I somewhat despair. This is an attack on the Palestinian Authority, if anything.</div>
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I agree with Matt. AngryPeter is the kind of fellow that Woody Allen described in Annie Hall. If he hears someone says “did you” quickly, he hears Didjew, and cries antisemitism.</div>
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As for “I don’t think you even realise how embarassingly pompous, condescending and self-important you are,” it’s today’s winner of the POT.KETTLE.BLACK award, though this, aimed at Sarah by the same Angry Peter, comes a close second: “This is off the wall even for you.”</div>
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And oh yeah, I know, I’m obtuse.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:28 pm</td></tr>
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<i>I’ve had an idea. Correct me if this seems a bit off-the-wall but aren’t there loads of Arab countries, Turkey and Greece (no scrub Greece!) who have a bit of dosh and a great love of wishing to preserve antiquities? Wouldn’t it be nice if they took care of it?’</i></div>
<i></i><br />
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<i>Turkey and Greece are not, I believe, Arab countries.</i></div>
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The clue to understanding that sentence is to respect the comma!!!</div>
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<i>I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. Are you saying that Arabs (plus Turkey and Greece, for some reason) should look after Arab cultural relics;</i></div>
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Turkey, or Ottoman Empire as it was once known ………………….</div>
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Tiresome!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:32 pm</td></tr>
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UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE</div>
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Entire civilian cabinet of interim government in Egypt resigns in protest against military crackdown on demonstrators.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:35 pm</td></tr>
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<i>Other times it’s because I think the post is not worth replying to, because in my view it’s a worthless point</i></div>
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But some of us have more patience than you and so YOUR posts ARE getting replies, despite the worthlessness of many of your points.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:36 pm</td></tr>
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‘I’ll ignore for a moment that you’ve decided that the Temple Mount and the Cave of the Patriarchs are Palestinian sites, rather than Jewish sites – a description that betrays much about your views.’</div>
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Well that could be taken as a rather innocuous description, since these sites came about when the land was known by many as Palestine.</div>
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But if you want to read it as a political claim – yes, I don’t mind saying that both these sites are on land Israel occupied in 1967, so I consider them part of occupied Palestine. I realise not everyone will agree, but it’s a reasonable enough view. Or do you think all 15 of the judges on the International court of Justice were somehow rabid anti-semites when they unanimously declared that this was illegally occupied land? Including all three Jewish ones?</div>
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Look, you don’t have to agree with me, but it’s a reasonable enough opinion to hold. Refute it if you like, but don’t say it shouldn’t be ‘allowed’.</div>
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Once again it seems everyone’s prepared to listen to opinions they don’t want to hear, as per Orwell, except when they don’t want to hear them.</div>
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And I’m pretty sure I’m not being hosted to raise advertising money.</div>
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‘Are you seriously implying though, that Palestinians despair over this disrepair?’</div>
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No, I quite explicitly said it was their leaders’ fault, didn’t I? I don’t think I ever implied that.</div>
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‘Because the Palestinians are actively involved in the destruction of archeological treasures, much more actively than the neglect of which you speak. How about the way they treat Joseph’s Tomb by burning it and spraypainting it, while pretending that it is just as important to them as it is to the Jews? Or how the Waqf digs up the Temple Mount with heavy machinery to destroy Jewish traces (which have later been found in the landfills) without either UNESCO or Palestinians, or people like you saying a word?’</div>
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People like me? When have you ever written an article complaining about the PA’s neglect of cultural relics? It seems that it’s precisely ‘people like me’ – whatever that means – who are doing so! I think you’re getting me confused with an uncritical pro-Palestinian.</div>
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I’m sorry, I couldn’t think of anything to say to the rest of your post. I think you are trying to argue with someone else.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:53 pm</td></tr>
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<i>‘I’ll ignore for a moment that you’ve decided that the Temple Mount and the Cave of the Patriarchs are Palestinian sites, rather than Jewish sites – a description that betrays much about your views.’</i></div>
<i></i><br />
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<i>Well that could be taken as a rather innocuous description, since these sites came about when the land was known by many as Palestine.</i></div>
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In 1922 when Palestine was designated The Jewish National Home.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:53 pm</td></tr>
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RE: I think you are trying to argue with someone else.</div>
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I think you’re right, Matt. It does appear they haven’t actually read your words in this article, but are arguing with a phantom pro-Palestinian whom they identify with you because of previous things you’ve written (much of which I also disagree with, as it happens). Which doesn’t give anyone the right to impute views to you that you don’t hold.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:55 pm</td></tr>
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RE: In 1922 when Palestine was designated The Jewish National Home.</div>
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Yes, but it was still called Palestine in 1922, and it still supports Matt’s view that given that, it was innocuous to call them “Palestinian sites.” Of course, any reasonable person should concede that the Temple Mount and the Tomb of the Patriarchs are Jewish historical sites, as is Rachel’s Tomb and all the rest.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarka</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:57 pm</td></tr>
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Abu<br />
I like your lion and gazelle, but there is conspicuous absence of tree. My Armenian/Jerusalem walltile features tree with a coupla gazelles on one side looking placid happy and on the other a lion jumping on a less fortunate gazelle.</div>
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Matt- sorry to divert you from big political issues for a mo, but I can’t get an image from your link (I get someone offering me an email account). Maybe I shall get intrigued enough to write to the Jerusalem potters and ask them where the original idea for the design came from – this being the simplest 22-dollar version</div>
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<a href="http://jerusalempottery.biz/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=JP&Product_Code=T8" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://jerusalempottery.biz/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=JP&Product_Code=T8</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nate</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:03 pm</td></tr>
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I say people like you because you choose the most innocuous topics rather than acknowledge the more relevant matters when such matters would potentially vilify Palestinian society, and you then absolve the Palestinians as a whole by referring merely to their leadership. People like you who complain about the neglect of cultural relics that Palestinians don’t seem too concerned with, but show no concern for Jewish relics, that are intentionally destroyed for political purposes and that are desecrated by Palestinian civilians. It’s this selectivity with which I identify “people like you”.<br />
As for being “allowed”to post, it’s not simply because I believe you are wrong. That’s perfectly fine, and anyone has a right to post an opposing view. My gripe is that your posts are useless, naive and add absolutely nothing of substance to the dialogue, and therefore represent a lower lever of quality than I am used to at this site.<br />
As for the Temple Mount, no peace proposal has ever called for Jews to cede that land (maybe to internationalize it, but certainly not to make it Palestinian, as it never has been “Palestinian”), so your decision to call Judaism’s most holy site “Palestinian” is not a reasonable enough view. Since UNSC 242 and all potential outcomes allow for Israel to keep some of the land from 1967, you are clearly thinking outside of what’s considered the practical resolution to the conflict.<br />
And if you agree that Palestinians don’t seem to care too much about this matter, how would this act of symbolism accomplish anything? What is your point, Matt? You say it’s not about American defunding, then why even mention that? You admit that it doesn’t matter to Palestinians, then why would it help them rise up? And UNESCO is clearly just as political and anti-Israel a group as the rest of the UN, so why insist on showing its worth by giving cover to a political ploy? UNESCO could play a part in resolving the conflict, by calling for compromise and admitting the heritage claims of both nations on that land, but it has played a very poisonous and politicized role that fixing up a mosaic wouldn’t undo. So… what is your point Matt?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>boyinthebubble</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:07 pm</td></tr>
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I don’t think the PA has any intention of using its membership of UNESCO in order to preserve the Hisham Palace. You know perfectly well that their bid for membership was a political move aimed at undermining Israel’s legal position regarding the antiquities in its care. To quote Hatem Abdel Qader, former PA Jerusalem affairs minister, “We will take Israel to court for systematically destroying and forging Arab and Islamic culture in Jerusalem” The sheer brass-neck of that statement beggars belief when one considers how the Palestinians have desecrated Jewish synagogues and holy sites in Jericho, Nablus and Gush Katif, to name only a few from a long list. The whole bid for UNESCO membership stinks of political cynicism. The US was absolutely right in withdrawing funds from a manoeuvre who’s only result would to corrupt the very articles UNESCO is founded on.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:07 pm</td></tr>
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Dcook,</div>
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That’s interesting. So you think Turkey is responsible for Palestine’s cultural relics because Palestine once belonged to Turkey’s empire?</div>
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But Palestine belonged to Britain more recently, so by your logic shouldn’t we be picking up the tab?</div>
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In some ways, people like you impress me. I keep making you look stupid, and you keep coming back for more, and you even suggest it’s tiresome having to explain yourself to someone of my low intelligence. I admire your chutzpah, I really do.</div>
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Sorry if this sounds arrogant – I actually don’t see it as such, because your point is so absurd that it takes very little acumen to make you look stupid. I just told my girlfriend about your fascinating Ottoman Empire point, and she’s still laughing. This one’s from her: so next time there’s an Australian cultural relic that needs saving, India should step in as a former member of the British empire?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nate</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:09 pm</td></tr>
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“Yes, but it was still called Palestine in 1922, and it still supports Matt’s view that given that, it was innocuous to call them “Palestinian sites.” Of course, any reasonable person should concede that the Temple Mount and the Tomb of the Patriarchs are Jewish historical sites, as is Rachel’s Tomb and all the rest.”</div>
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Is Matt included in this description of “any reasonable person” because he did not claim to be? And UNESCO certainly doesn’t act in keeping with this “reasonable” idea, nor do any Arabs who I have seen or read in opining on this matter.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:11 pm</td></tr>
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‘I think you’re right, Matt. It does appear they haven’t actually read your words in this article, but are arguing with a phantom pro-Palestinian whom they identify with you because of previous things you’ve written (much of which I also disagree with, as it happens). Which doesn’t give anyone the right to impute views to you that you don’t hold.’</div>
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I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, even passionately. But I think we should be able to disagree with each other civilly. And this thread is just amusing – the way in which my words are being twisted seems like some unimaginative Palestine Solidarity campaign member’s parody of inflexible, paranoid pro-Israel rhetoric.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:14 pm</td></tr>
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Nate,</div>
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‘So… what is your point Matt?’</div>
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That Israel should be destroyed, Nate, and all the Jews pushed into the sea. I decided to cunningly disguise my evil views with a call for a cultural agency to do something about the neglect of a historic relic. You found me out, though. What can I say?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:19 pm</td></tr>
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Sorry all, have to go. I can only apologise for the vile, anti-Israeli sentiments in this article, which so many of you have perceptively decoded.</div>
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As always, I’ll check back later and reply to all reasonable comments. And when I’ve replied to both of those, I might even reply to some unreasonable ones, too.</div>
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I look forward to finding out the new, ingenious ways in which my words can be twisted into hateful racist rants.</div>
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By the way, if anyone has anything to say about UNEScO, Hisham’s Palace, PA corruption, etc, don’t be afraid to go off topic.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:25 pm</td></tr>
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‘Of course, any reasonable person should concede that the Temple Mount and the Tomb of the Patriarchs are Jewish historical sites, as is Rachel’s Tomb and all the rest.’</div>
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Yes – but the Temple Mount isn’t an exclusively Jewish historical site, is it? That’s the whole problem. Rachel’s Tomb, though, really ought to be recognised as a Jewish site primarily (I would say exclusively but I can’t help it if some Muslims have the idea it’s holy to them – I don’t think anything’s holy, so to me both religious Jews and religious Muslims are fundamentally as mistaken as each other, if you see what I mean…).</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:36 pm</td></tr>
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RE: your posts … represent a lower lever of quality than I am used to at this site.</div>
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Ridiculous.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:40 pm</td></tr>
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Matt: I wasn’t talking about “holy,” I was talking about historical. Now, Rachel was a Jewish matriarch, ergo, her tomb is a Jewish historical site. That Muslims (and Christians?) attach themselves to Jewish historical sites is certainly a fact, but it doesn’t detract from the original Jewish historicity of the site in question. And the same, I might add, applies to the temple mount. Or did you think Muhammed’s ascent to heaven (such as it was), and the subsequent building of Al Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock on that site, were coincidences? In short, if Jewish history hadn’t created these sites, neither Muslims nor Christians would give a damn about them.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lynne T</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:41 pm</td></tr>
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Abu Faris<br />
21 November 2011, 7:13 pm</div>
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First and foremost, I hope you, your family and your neighbours are and will remain safe from harm.</div>
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As re: the PA being remiss in promoting tourism vis a vis an antiquity relating to the rule of a particular Caliphate, well, since when has the PA, Salam Fayyed excepted, been terribly astute at taking care of business? And no doubt, until Abbas threw him under the bus the other day, Fayyed was more engaged in staunching corruption and policing the “militants” than he was at worrying over whether full tourism value was being appreciated at some particular site.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:43 pm</td></tr>
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Well I agree with that, vildechaye. But if it’s taken to mean that the Jews have more of a ‘right’ to the Temple Mount than the Muslims, I can’t agree. I think they should find some way to stop squabbling and share it.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:52 pm</td></tr>
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<i>RE: In 1922 when Palestine was designated The Jewish National Home.</i></div>
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<i>Yes, but it was still called Palestine in 1922,</i></div>
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So you violently agree with me. Even by 1947 the Jews of Palestine were called “Palestinians”.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarka</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:54 pm</td></tr>
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Matt<br />
Still no link to image (sigh – are you really as interested in it as all that?).<br />
On a general peaceable note, can I remark that UNESCO is not known for being terrible pro-active as far as historical sites are concerned. Basically the nations sit around in UNESCO and compete for status and funds for their fave sites – and this means that in the reasonably democratic nations stuff depends on local organisations including NGOs etc making a big big fuss to national governments about how they want UNESCO status and then getting requests/applications put forward to UNESCO.<br />
UNESCO’s leverage on people abusing or neglecting heritage sites depends almost entirely on their already having been put e.g. on their magic list…and UNESCO then making stern remarks about how they will be taken off the magic list unless they MEND THEIR WAYS. This has happened, for example, in recent years with threats over loss of status to the biggest UNESCO cultural heritage site in the world, viz…much of central Prague.</div>
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They don’t utter more than whimpers or nothing if there is neglect or threats to sites that were never on the magic list. So basically if the PA won’t bother, it wouldn’t be normal procedure for UNESCO to bother…</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 9:10 pm</td></tr>
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Sarka,</div>
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Sorry, what are you looking for? I’m a bit busy now but I’ll find the image you want if I can.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 9:28 pm</td></tr>
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<i>just told my girlfriend about your fascinating Ottoman Empire point, and she’s still laughing.</i></div>
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Makes a change she’s laughing with you rather than at you.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 9:30 pm</td></tr>
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<i>I don’t mind saying that both these sites are on land Israel occupied in 1967, so I consider them part of occupied Palestine.</i></div>
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You did fail Logic 101, didn’t you? Being ‘occupied’ (even if we accept that it is, which I don’t) doesn’t make it ‘Palestine’, much less ‘Palestinian’.</div>
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<i>Or do you think all 15 of the judges on the International court of Justice were somehow rabid anti-semites when they unanimously declared that this was illegally occupied land?</i></div>
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No, just thick and ignorant, e.g. of the legal history since the LoN mandate. For crying out loud, they didn’t even understand the simple legal concept that the Green Line was never a de jure international border.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #d70606;">Sarah AB</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 9:31 pm</td></tr>
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I apologise for problems with links. I will try to fix these.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lynne T</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 9:44 pm</td></tr>
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Vildechaye:</div>
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You are too subtle here for most readers, not just Matt Hill.</div>
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I expect your intention was to point out that the caliphate responsible for the erection of the Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock built proximate to what was left of Solomon’s temples — on the rather flimsy context cooked up a few centuries after the fact that Mohammed travelled to “the far mosque” in order to ascend to the heavens on horseback — was nothing more than a political act to establish dominance both locally and in the greater context, as Islam’s true centre is in Saudi Arabia with signifcant sites in Iraq and Iran.</div>
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And to further reinforce the politics behind the locations of Aqsa and the Dome on Temple Mount, I recall a lecture given by historian Bernard Lewis gave a number of years ago that was broadcast on the CBC, in which he pointed out that either the Aqsa Mosque or the Dome of the Rock was built squarely upon the site of a Byzantine church, and on the walls of the mosque/dome, there is an inscription that directly disses Christian theology.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sue R</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 10:00 pm</td></tr>
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To be honest, if the Palestinians aren’t bothered about their historical sites, for whatever reason, no-one is going to make them do anything. This is a rather naive article. The only reason I can see that it was written was to obliquely plead that the Americans don’t pull the plug on UNESCO funding. At the end of the day, it’s down to the inhabitants of a country to take care of it, and obviously some inhabitants and some countries are better at that than others. Sarcasm never works on the internet, it relies on knowing a person really well, inflexions of voice and facial grimaces, none of which are available in the medium of type. Every thing written on the web is taken literally, especially when it is a touchy subject. So your wisecracks about ‘Zionists’ come over as literal.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 10:06 pm</td></tr>
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Sue R,</div>
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That’s right, it’s impossible to convey sarcasm using just text, isn’t it?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sue R</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 10:28 pm</td></tr>
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Are you being sarcastic?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarka</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 10:57 pm</td></tr>
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Matt<br />
I just wanted an image of your Tree of Life. Maybe Sarah can fix the problem….</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>mettaculture</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 12:01 am</td></tr>
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Matt Hill</div>
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Civility is nice though it not a synonym for reasonable, in orientation or argument.</div>
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Frankly I believe that your intentions are decent (though ‘the road to hell’ and all that) though this has little bearing on what I think of the strength or even reasonableness of your arguments.</div>
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In fact I give you the benefit of the doubt on your actual desire for ‘impartiality’ because of your position on the ‘right of return for Palestinian refugees’ as this issue alone is enough to exclude you from being considered pro-Palestinian among Palestinians, though of course not among liberal Israeli’s. I do wonder however wether you are grounded enough in the millieu of Palestinian/Arab opinion to realise how non-negotiable this issue really is above all reason but that is another issue.</div>
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I do not find your posts, in and of themselves, particularly objectionable. They are arguments and presented as arguments inviting debate, objections and criticism.</div>
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As arguments they will be crticised either in form (the structure of the argument, its persuasiveness, logicality of propositions, coherence etc) or in substance (accuracy and completness of fact, political, sociological historical knowledge etc).</div>
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In the post-modern theoretical world you should also expect a foundational ideological interrogation in the sense of ‘where are you coming from?’ ‘what is your bias or the appearance of bias’, in short what is your ‘real view’ and what is your ‘real agenda’.</div>
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You should be able to address these ‘real arguments’ as they are, conventionally speaking,’reasonable’ whether or not they are, strictly speaking, civil.</div>
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Of course some people will respond to you reflexively, unreasonably and irrationally either because that is what they do, or, more likely because of their own preconceived ideas on the issues or what they believe to be your ‘agenda’.</div>
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It is your reaction to criticism that I find extraordinary and I think it is here that you lose sympathy.</div>
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Of course you do not have to respond to actual abuse, however, the use of a wholly conventional ‘you say’ or ‘your writing shows’ or even ‘your argument is rubbish’ is not abuse, nor is it, even, personal criticism, so it looks like you are trying to duck an argument when you characterise a person’s argument as personal attack.</div>
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You consistently isolate one or two words from a commenter’s criticisms and then portray the entirety as a ‘vile, nasty’ personal attack, or worse, accuse all critics of accusing you of wanting to destroy Israel (no-one has done that on this thread).</div>
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You should not have such a thick skin if you really believe your arguments are defendable. Just defend your positions by argument not by reference to your jewish or israeli friends who think the same way.</div>
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I am not bothered by the ‘There’s no blaming the Zionists for this one.’ as I found it perfectly explained by the previous;</div>
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<i>Hisham’s Palace is in West Bank Area A, which, in Oslo-speak, means it’s under Palestinian jurisdiction. In other words its scandalous state (imagine leaving a Rembrandt out for a few hours in Trafalgar Square) is entirely the fault of the Palestinian Authority. There’s no blaming the Zionists for this one.</i>.</div>
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I found this the most pointless reason for people to criticise your post as one should have been able to read this straightforwardly (without any need for sarcasm emoticons) as a statement saying; that unlike other historical/religious sites of importance to Muslims and Arabs and Palestinians, for which Palestinian accusations of neglect have been made, the Hisham Palace is solely the responsibility of the PA.</div>
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On the other hand there are many valid criticisms of the post and of your general sense of ‘balance’ which lead, arguably, to a biased or less than impartial account.</div>
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For example Nate while not disguising the fact that he does not like your articles, has made many valid criticisms of the underlying assumptions guiding your choice of subject matter being based on an actual political fact of UNESCO having recognised Palestine as a state (obliquely referenced) while framing it as a purely hypothetical point of what UNESCO might do for Palestinians.</div>
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Nate’s arguments are not inherently unreasonable and deserve a reasoned response.</div>
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Notwithstanding Nate’s expressed dislike of your arguments and articles, Matt Hill, he did not personally attack or abuse you.</div>
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Only the final line of Nate’s post stated ‘So… What is your point Matt’. The fact that there was relevant prior content and argument is clear from the ‘So…… It was;</div>
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<i>UNESCO could play a part in resolving the conflict, by calling for compromise and admitting the heritage claims of both nations on that land, but it has played a very poisonous and politicized role that fixing up a mosaic wouldn’t undo. So… what is your point Matt?</i></div>
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Yet you chose to respond to Nate in this way;</div>
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<i>So… what is your point Matt?</i></div>
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<i>That Israel should be destroyed, Nate, and all the Jews pushed into the sea. I decided to cunningly disguise my evil views with a call for a cultural agency to do something about the neglect of a historic relic. You found me out, though. What can I say?</i></div>
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Quite a gobsmackingly idiotic reply, the arrogance of which is only matched by your apparent ignorance of UNESCO, it’s mission, it’s programmes and it’s biased history in relation to Israel/Palestine.</div>
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If the parallel theme of this post has been selective quoting out of context and a faux literal reading of that selection, then when you say;</div>
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‘What can I say?’ I have to say an awful lot more, or alternatively an awful lot less but more directly.</div>
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You could start with UNESCO and it’s actual programmatic history, given that you based your post on what you think they should do to symbolise and further Palestinian statehood, now put in jeopardy by it’s own actions.</div>
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It is not all about the perfidious US and it’s eternal subterfuge you know.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 12:17 am</td></tr>
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Sarka,</div>
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Sorry for the delay; I did link to the mosaic in the post. Here it is (scroll down to bottom):</div>
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<a href="http://www.atlastours.net/holyland/hishams_palace.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://www.atlastours.net/holyland/hishams_palace.html</a></div>
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I confess I’d be glad to have someone explain the allegory to me (or at least give a convincing interpretation).</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 12:57 am</td></tr>
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RE: And UNESCO certainly doesn’t act in keeping with this “reasonable” idea, nor do any Arabs who I have seen or read in opining on this matter.</div>
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Have I ever said that UNESCO or, for that matter, most Arabs or Muslims who have an opinion on this are reasonable? They certainly don’t behave that way.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 1:00 am</td></tr>
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RE: But if it’s taken to mean that the Jews have more of a ‘right’ to the Temple Mount than the Muslims, I can’t agree.</div>
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That wasn’t how it was meant, Matt. That being said, I think it’s quite cheeky for Muslims to go on and on about Jerusalem when (a) their holiest sites are elsewhere; (b) they (in this case Jordan) treated Jerusalem rather shabbily when they held it); and (c) Israel does share the temple mount, whereas it seems unlikely a Palestinian state controlling the temple mount would.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:11 am</td></tr>
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vildechaye,</div>
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Ok, I didn’t say that’s how you meant it; I was just clarifying my own view. I agree with points b) and c), in the main, though I think the argument that the Palestinians shouldn’t ‘go on’ about Jerusalem, because the holiest Muslim sites are elsewhere, is a little misleading. Jerusalem is considered by Palestinians their capital city. That isn’t some innovative notion, cynically invented to annoy Jews. It was true long before the Six-Day War. To say the Palestinians should give up Jerusalem is like saying that the British should have no problem giving up London, because christians still have the Vatican.</div>
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However I also understand the integral importance of the Temple Mount to Jews. Which is why, ultimately, the two sides must somehow learn to share sovereignty over the compound. (Yes, Israel shares access but not sovereignty, and has often closed the Dome of the Rock or prevented young men from worshipping there – hardly the worst crimes in the world, I grant you, but illustration that it’s not fully shared in the sense it ought to be, with neither side having ultimate control. This is probably the most difficult issue to solve in any potential peace deal.</div>
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mettaculture,</div>
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Much of what you say is very fair, including your criticisms of me. I’ll have to address them tomorrow though, as it’s past my bed time.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lynne T</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:16 am</td></tr>
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Matt Hill:</div>
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As a matter of historic/demographic fact, Jerusalem remained primarily a Jewish centre until well into the 20th century. If I recall correctly, a majority of Jerusalem’s Arab/Palestinian/non-Jewish population arrived after the ‘67 war.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nate</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:39 am</td></tr>
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Matt,<br />
Your reflex to go to the furthest extreme in your response to me, is more than a little immature. I am not saying or even implying that your true intention is Israel’s destruction, although you show very little understanding and sympathy for the reality in which it exists. I don’t find your post to be racist, anti-Semitic, or even hostile… just slight. I honestly don’t see the point of this post in a world where the topic has so much more to discuss. It’s more sentimentalism that treats the Palestinians as victims (if not of the west, then of their own leadership) without acknowledging more ugly truths. Like why is it that the ICC, which is mired in the politics of the UN would never vote in Israel’s favor? Why is it that UNESCO could never be expected to act in the way you imply they would? Why would you even have such an expectation from a body that has ruled Rachel’s tomb a mosque? Why would the US cut funding? Why do you even bring up the idea of American “subterfuge”? Why would young men be kept from the Temple Mount? And, where did this idea of Palestine having a capital in Jerusalem even come from, if you truly don’t believe it to be a spiteful political move (which Jerusalem has always played to Muslims)? If the PLO in ‘64 proclaimed that they had no claim to the West Bank (which was under Jordanian control), how does that reconcile with your assertion that Palestinians have always considered Jerusalem to be their capital? These are questions of substance. Your post doesn’t address anything of any importance, and attempts to make a cause where none exists. All it does is perpetuate your sense of Palestinian victimhood as a people who need to be helped in “rising from their ruins”. Mettaculture, thanks for putting the rest of my arguments into more level-headed words! (that wasn’t sarcastic).</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Penny</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:51 am</td></tr>
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Matt</div>
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I sent you a link to a video in which Alan Dershowitz spoke of a discussion he had with Fayyad regarding Jerusalem. Did you watch it?</div>
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Fayyad was at least honest when he said the city was a matter of ‘location, location, location’. In other words, the Palestinian claim was less one of the heart or a national/cultural claim and more a case of knowing that it means so much to the Jews that it was seen as a highly valuable bargaining chip for land elsewhere in Israel.</div>
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It seems to me that when you view negotiations between the Palestinians and the Israelis, you tend to factor out, or consider unimportant, the consequences that occur when one nation – in this case the Arab nation – attacks another (three times) and loses. Maybe I’m wrong but you seem to believe that despite these wars and terrorism the clock should be re-set to 1947.</div>
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I also sent you a link to Eugene Rostow’s paper about the legality of the settlements and Res 242. As he co-wrote this resolution, his commentary should be seen as pretty sound. Did you read it?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Telavivit</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 5:08 am</td></tr>
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” Jerusalem is considered by Palestinians their capital city… It was true long before the Six-Day War…”</div>
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References?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 5:19 am</td></tr>
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Matt: I never said Palestinians shouldn’t go on about Jerusalem (though it should be noted that by the 1840s (i.e. not the 1940s, the 1840s), Jews were the majority population in Jerusalem. I was referring to Muslims, as the discussion at that point was about religion, not nations or nationalities.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 6:37 am</td></tr>
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Matt – I left a comment on your blog which is of relevance to Nate’s point, raising two stories about sites in Israel.</div>
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<a href="http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/israel-prize-laureate-opposes-museum-of-tolerance-1.260500" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/israel-prize-laureate-opposes-museum-of-tolerance-1.260500</a></div>
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<a href="http://english.pnn.ps/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10799&Itemid=64" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://english.pnn.ps/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10799&Itemid=64</a></div>
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The first story is one I came across through a reference to it from a pro-Palestinian commenter. When I looked into it further I felt that the story had been twisted, eg glossing over the fact the site had been used as a car park for years. So when I came across a reference to this other story about complaints about demolishing the Moroccan bridge – I was open to the possibility that this was also exaggerated or distorted. I haven’t really investigated it though. I wondered if you, or other commenters, had views about the stories.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Israelinurse</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 7:46 am</td></tr>
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This is a very important subject on a much wider basis than just the preservation of the Hisham’s Palace mosaic. All over the Middle East important archaeological sites are in danger of being lost to humankind due to a combination of factors, including political ones.</div>
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The aspect of this cited by Abu Faris above is a very important one – ie the negation of other cultures by political/religious extremists. One only has to remember the destruction of the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan, the looting of the museum in Cairo last January or the continuing deterioration and vandalising of Yehezkel’s tomb in Iraq to see that this is a much broader issue. It is also a subject which I would suggest Matt Hill study further as it may contribute to his understanding of the region as a whole.</div>
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As others have pointed out above, there are literally dozens of important sites all over Judea, Samaria and Gaza which are in grave danger not merely due to a lack of resources (which could be solved by organisations such as UNESCO) but because archaeology has become a political weapon in attempts to dictate the ‘narrative’.</div>
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If UNESCO (big ‘if’) really intends to be of use, then one of its first tasks must be to educate on the fact that these sites belong to mankind as a whole and as such must be preserved.</div>
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One dreads to think what has become, for example, of the 6th century synagogue in Gaza.</div>
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<a href="http://cojs.org/cojswiki/Gaza_Synagogue_Mosaic,_6th_century_CE" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://cojs.org/cojswiki/Gaza_Synagogue_Mosaic,_6th_century_CE</a></div>
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It is also important that Matt Hill should recognise that under the Oslo Accords there was supposed to be free access to – and conservation of – all sites of religious significance to Jews located in areas A&B. Those conditions are not upheld and yet we have not heard a peep from the ‘international community’.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:10 am</td></tr>
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Its been said above “What is the point of this post?” So, I will repeat what others have said.</div>
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The story is “Palestinians fail to look after heritage antiquity”. Since UNESCO could have identified this many years ago then what has the recent membership of the Palestinians actually got to do with the necessity to have done it previously? The Global Heritage fund has already alerted us to its state.</div>
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What has the red-herring of USA defunding of UNESCO got to do with the story? If countries had been concerned at the lack of Palestinian interest in antiquities they could/should have spoken out by now.</div>
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Why does the West seem to care more about the site than the Arabs and Muslims who’s heritage it is? Since its a site of importance to Muslims then why haven’t Arab countries taken an interest? Why hasn’t Turkey said something. After all it wishes to be a major Islamic influence in the Middle East and at one time Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire. A fact that causes Matt Hill’s girlfriend to giggle like a five-year old! Wouldn’t they have just a little bit of interest in the plight of an Islamic antiquity in an area they not only ruled but under the influence of the Palestinians who they support?</div>
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Wouldn’t ANY Muslim country wish to maintain its heritage sites? Why is it that its the West expected to take interest?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:15 am</td></tr>
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<i>” Jerusalem is considered by Palestinians their capital city… It was true long before the Six-Day War…”</i></div>
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<i>References?</i></div>
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I’m guessing that this ridiculous claim comes from Jordan’s illegal invasion of Palestine and capturing Jerusalem in 1948. Subsequently they were kicked out in 1967 and Jerusalem reverted back to Jewish control. After all, it is Israel’s capital. Far longer than any Arab claim Jews have always ended prayers with “Next year in Jerusalem”. Arab Muslim claims are based on a fairy story.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:06 am</td></tr>
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Let’s remember that Matt Hill completely ignored the issue of Res 242 when he previously commented that Israel refused to define its borders. If someone doesn’t even grasp the most fundamental and basic fact about the I/P conflict then what credibility does he have as a commentator? What a household! A g/f who laughs at the idea that The Ottoman Empire ever had anything to do with “Palestine” or that Turkey might show an interest in a site of Islamic antiquity. Birds of a feather, eh?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:22 am</td></tr>
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<i>Jerusalem is considered by Palestinians their capital city. That isn’t some innovative notion, cynically invented to annoy Jews. It was true long before the Six-Day War.</i></div>
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Well Matt how long ago was “long before”?</div>
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There were no such people as “Palestinians” in the definition of the current people called “Palestinians” at any time prior to the 1967 war. “Palestinians” can only come about by having a place called “Palestine” and that happened in 1922.</div>
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Wikipedia:</div>
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The history of a distinct Palestinian national identity is a disputed issue amongst scholars.[23] According to legal historian Assaf Likhovski, the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the twentieth century</div>
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The term “Palestinians” referred to Arabs and Jews in Palestine until 1948 when the Jews of Palestine (aka “Palestinians”) became Israelis. You can “regard” Jerusalem as your capital but does history and legality support it. Unless you are a definable legally recognised state and entity you cannot have a capital city. Capital of what?</div>
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The current Palestinians have their capital in (Ramallah or Nablus – not sure which). Its where you go to meet the Palestinians and their seat of power and legislature.</div>
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The claims of the current Palestinians are based on religion and they hate the idea that Al Aqsa is in Israeli territory. Well tough! They are free to worship there, until they start stoning and rioting again.</div>
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Jerusalem is NOT the capital city of a Palestinian State and never will be.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Brownie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:39 am</td></tr>
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<i>Let’s remember that Matt Hill completely ignored the issue of Res 242 when he previously commented that Israel refused to define its borders. If someone doesn’t even grasp the most fundamental and basic fact about the I/P conflict then what credibility does he have as a commentator?</i></div>
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This is abject nonsense. Nowhere does Matt say or imply anything that ignores the reality that a final resolution on borders will be the result of negotiation as called for in res.242. Why do you continue too insist otherwise?</div>
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The unfinished business of res.242 does not preclude Israel from stating a claim, which is why earlier comparisons to Kashmir, Cyprus and Ireland in earlier threads won’t wash. Indeed, the very fact Israel refuses to articulate an unequivocal territorial claim is entirely unhelpful and, in my view, deliberately so.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Barad</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:49 am</td></tr>
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Barad,</div>
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“I don’t think Jonathan cook is in any way comparable to Hitler, and I think it’s shameful of you to resort to such analogies so easily. I do not believe Jonathan cook has killed six million Jews, though as always I am ready to change my view if you can provide evidence to the contrary.”</div>
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Matt, forgive me for finding you dim in your response but I was not comparing Cook to Hitler, I was commenting on your willingness to turn a blind eye to very unpleasant opinions because you are fascinated with the subject matter or you find you agree with some of what Cook has to say. Seriously, have you just started an undergrad course of some kind?</div>
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More generally, non-Jews and non-Arabs with no connection to I-P make me extremely suspicious, especially when you appear both strident and pretty ignorant of the situation, which has nothing to do with you in any event (funny how white, left wing activists are often solely concerned with IP but usually no other conflict in the world-I wonder why that is?). Still, yay Palestine, hate those Zionazis etc…</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Brownie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 10:00 am</td></tr>
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The opprobrium heaped on Matt for what ought to have been viewed as a pretty uncontroversial article is a shameful indictment of this blog. I realise that 90% of the people here seem only to want to write about and discuss one issue (more’s the pity), but we ought to be able to find room for more than one perspective.</div>
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The bad faith argumentation form DCook, Barad and that fucking moron Peter is to be expected, but there are other more lucid and less batshit-crazy commenters (and authors) who ought to know better.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 10:13 am</td></tr>
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Barad – Matt has family connections with Israel and spends half the year there. I really don’t think ’strident’ is the adjective which first comes to mind to describe him, and your last sentence seems completely unearned by his post. I disagree with some of Matt’s views, and agree with some of the criticisms raised here. I’ve been persuaded to adjust my own views and preconceptions about some of these issues myself through following HP of course.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sue R</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 10:42 am</td></tr>
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No, but, yeah, but…I appreciate Matt’s anxiety about the destruction of a beautiful work of art, but I think he reveals a lot of confusion. He remarks ‘how would Londoners feel if London was taken over by foriegners?’. Maybe it’s me, but London doesn’t have that sort of emotional appeal to the British. It is not a case of geography, more of culture. He compounds that with remarks about the Vatican. Well, hello, Christendom is not solely teh Catholic church, and many sacred sites for the various types of Christain are dotted around the world. So, that strieks me as fallacious reasoning. Just admit, Matt, that for Palestinians, old bricks and mortar are not important. Why, in Mecca, sites associated with Mohammed have been built over, ostenbily on the grounds that they don’t want to encourge idolatry, but surprisingly, they are valuable real estate.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Barad</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 10:47 am</td></tr>
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Sarah, the only family connections I remember reading about were an old Palestinian girlfriend. I absolutely stand by my last paragraph-that is my experience of such people and I am sick to death of them.</div>
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And the tedious Brownie is still sulking at me because I do not hero-worship Blair or think he was did much other than harm to the UK, so everything I say on any subject is “batshit crazy”.</div>
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Feel absolutely free to change your own opinions, as I do if properly persuaded but I am not in this case.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Barad</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 10:50 am</td></tr>
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“He remarks ‘how would Londoners feel if London was taken over by foriegners?’.”</div>
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Clearly he hasn’t been to London lately…</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 11:16 am</td></tr>
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Barad – he really does know Israel very well – which is not the same as knowing all the history, but does explain his interest. I entirely sympathise with your irritation at a certain sort of ‘pro-Palestinian’ – it was people like that who made me start seeking out more info because they seemed so objectionable. Even though I (and some of you much more so than me) don’t see quite eye to eye with Matt, I think he’s completely different from that type, and his starting point seems to be a genuine concern for both Israelis and Palestinians – which seems terribly basic, but is not something I’m often aware of in Palestinian advocacy. For example I came acrross someone saying something like ‘it is up the Palestinians to decide their destiny’ WRT the one state/two state question – but there was no indication that person had the slightest interest in what Israelis might think – s/he seemed terribly concerned about Palestinian self-determination but not at all about Jewish/Israeli self-determination.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Micha</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 11:31 am</td></tr>
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“The unfinished business of res.242 does not preclude Israel from stating a claim, which is why earlier comparisons to Kashmir, Cyprus and Ireland in earlier threads won’t wash. Indeed, the very fact Israel refuses to articulate an unequivocal territorial claim is entirely unhelpful and, in my view, deliberately so.”</div>
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If Israel had made an unequivocal claim to anything less than the exact pre-67 borders, it would have been accused of unilaterally trying to impose its will and conquer part of the “Palestinian/Arab” lands. This would have been used as proof that Israel doesn’t want peace even if the offer they made included a willingness to establish a Palestinian state on most of the 67 ocupied land.</div>
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Conversely, if Israel made an unequivocal claim that followed the pre-67 borders exactly, then it would have given up — before negotiation and with nothing in return — on the diplomatic gain the had in 242, which allowed flexibility on the issue of borders. And they would have given up on all it’s border related concerns, namely Jerusalem, security and settlement blocks: all of the issues where it needs negotiating flexibility with relation to the pre-67 borders.</div>
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So it is against Israel interest to commit to any borders before negotiations since it would be used against it either way without giving Israel any benefits.</div>
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At best what Israel could (and in my opinion should) do, would be to say something like “based n the 67 borders.” But you can be sure that a statement like that would gain Israel only very little good will from anybody — certainly not from the Palestinians themselves.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://lafu-sion.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Fabian ben Israel</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 11:32 am</td></tr>
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I read the post (did not read who wrote it), didn’t think that it was anti-Israeli. The only thing that was strange was how come a Jew (I assumed the writer was an Israeli Jew) was free to roam abandoned places near Jericho, where he could run the risk of being kidnapped or killed by Palestinians.</div>
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Then I read “Matt Hill” and suddenly I saw the light. The writer was a foreigner and he enjoys pleasures that are denied to Israeli Jews. Ok.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 11:36 am</td></tr>
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<i>basic fact about the I/P conflict then what credibility does he have as a commentator?</i></div>
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<i>This is abject nonsense. Nowhere does Matt say or imply anything that ignores the reality that a final resolution on borders will be the result of negotiation as called for in res.242. Why do you continue too insist otherwise?</i></div>
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Because he asserted that Israel has not/will not declare its borders in his previous (crap) thread. That means he completely ignored Res 242 preventing Israel to agreeing a border unless its linked to peace and security by discussion with the Palestinians. SInce the Palestinians refuse to discuss it then the borders can’t be created.</div>
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Perhaps you should try and be a bit smarter rather than shooting from the lip.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Barad</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 11:51 am</td></tr>
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Sarah, I do hear your points. I will confess to (very often) a gut response these days to anti-Israeli sentiments and people, although I hate to say it seems justified more often than not.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Barad</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 11:59 am</td></tr>
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I might add Sarah that reading that the Cave of the Partiachs and Temple Mount are considered by the author as indisputably Arab Muslim sites (through ignorance or deceit ignoring their far longer Jewish significance before the Arab conquest and the invention of Islam) are just the sort of thing to produce aforesaid gut reaction.</div>
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Knowing that the supposedly moderate PA as well as Hamas, IJ et al deny any Jewish connection whatsoever to the land and Islamize or erase historic Jewish sites accordingly, makes such deceptive statements of false fact by Western Palestinian cheerleaders doubly galling.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 1:13 pm</td></tr>
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Thanks Matt for the full link. Quite obviously my tile is based on the Hisham design…</div>
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On the status of Jerusalem, you could do worse than to read the very recently published and mainly rave-reviewed history of Jerusalem by Sebag-Montefiore. This isn’t a polemical work about IP, but an amazingly interesting and engaging total history, full of vignettes, with plenty of sympathy for Palestinians for you to approve of…</div>
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You may have already read it, but I doubt that – given your rather simplistic notion of its status for Palestinians as capital. Of course it was (at some times but not others) important as symbol for Arabs (Muslim and Christian) local and in the wider area. It was sometimes (not always by any means) a focus of regional and wider power politics. But the idea of it as some traditional national “capital” for a “Palestinian people” ( comparable, for example – to the historic feeling for Prague as national capital that Czechs have had for centuries) is a retro creation associated with the emergence of the idea of a distinctive (Arab) Palestinian nation as a counter to Zionist ideas.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 1:14 pm</td></tr>
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Hello all,</div>
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I’m back to reply to as many comments as possible. Sorry if it takes a while – I’m trying to work at the same time. Plus I’m writing on a phone, so apologies for the inevitable typos.</div>
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One quick point that touches on what Nate and mettaculture said above, but has a general application too. Apparently I failed to address some good points Nate made, instead replying defensively or sarcastically. Apologies for that. But nate’s post started with ‘I dont know why you’re allowed to write here’ and ended with ‘I can’t understand such rubbish / what is your point?’ now I’m sorry if there was some real gold in between those comments but I guess I didn’t feel like sifting through the ad hominem to find his good points. I think I contribute quite a bit below the line, and I even reply to posts that stray a long way from the topic and civility. Sorry if I don’t reply to every one. I notice there’s this idea I’ve been evading some point about UN res. 242 – if someone will be good enough to make that point again, in plain terms – perhaps in the form of a proposition which I’ll then agree or disagree with – I’d be grateful.</div>
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One more general comment. I realise that, because of some of my other stated views (which I don’t retract) there’s this idea that I’m some sort of raving pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel nutcase out there. A lot of the criticisms directed at me are expressed as comments about ‘your kind of person’. I’d just like to briefly explain why I think this is a misconception.</div>
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Yes, I have all kinds of views that I’m sure most HP readers strongly reject. I also have several views which most pro-Palestinian campaigners hate. (for instance, I don’t believe in the ‘right of return’ for the so-called ‘refugees’; also, I don’t see why the Palestinians shouldn’t agree to recognise Israel as a ‘Jewish state’, so long as this doesn’t prejudice the equality of non-Jewish Israelis.) that’s why David T, one of this site’s editors, has said I’m really a ‘liberal Zionist’ – and he’s not the first to say so. I don’t use that term myself, but I don’t strongly reject it either.</div>
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The reason i perhaps show my more pro-Palestinian side at times here is because I want to have a debate. I also write for Liberal Conspiracy, and I recently got sick of preaching to the choir, as it were. I could come on HP and preach about how many of the so-called Palestinian refugees arent really refugees at all, but grandchildren of the original refugees who are being denied their rights by Arab governments using them as a human reproach to Israel, and talk about how disgusting that is. But everyone would just agree, which would be boring (although at this point I wouldn’t be surprise if it was somehow interpreted as a foaming attack on Israel).</div>
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So in my desire to provoke debate, I’ve evidently been cast as a certain kind of person. I don’t deny I support Palestinian statehood in very strong terms, but you’re mistaken if you think I’m a stereotypical pro-Palestinian activist. I’m not and won’t claim I agree with everything, or even most things, the average HP readers thinks. But you might be surprised by how much we agree on. If you think I wish any harm to Israel or its civilians, bear in mind my parents are Israeli civilians – and so am I, for much of the year.</div>
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And finally: this really is a post about the PA’s scandalous neglect of a cultural treasure. Those who think I’ve programmed an attack on Israel into it are giving me credit for more subtlety than I possess, alas.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 1:21 pm</td></tr>
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Sarka,</div>
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I have read the Simon Sebag Montefieore book, and yes, you’re right – I should qualify my claim about Jerusalem. It has always been considered the main religious site in what we would call historic Palestine or greater Israel by its Arab inhabitants. It was not always the ‘capital’ in the modern sense – for instance, many would argue Jaffa was the intellectual and cultural centre of pre-48 Palestine. And I certainly don’t deny its pre-eminence for Jews, and if I’m not mistaken Jews became a majority there at some point in the 19th C. It’s probably, for these reasons nd others, the most difficult issue to solve in any future peace deal.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 1:34 pm</td></tr>
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Mettaculture,</div>
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I hope my long reply above answered some of your points in your long post, above. Yes, I realise many of my views would count me out of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, and, believe me, I have a lot of contempt for lit of people in those groups. One of these days I’ll write an article lambasting them for thir inflexibility, parochialism, their idealisation of the ‘oppressed’, their tolerance for anti-semitism, and the way they sometimes harm the Palestinian cause by appearing unreasonable, strident and insensitive. But I’ll probably find a pro-Palestinian site to post it at.</div>
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Yes, I have a pretty good idea of the Arab/Palestinian milieu. I spend much of each yer living in Nazareth.</div>
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I understand I hour expect an interrogation of my fundamental values and worldview, and how they relate to my more specific views. Fundamentally I’m an enlightenment rationalist, humanist, liberal, social democratic, feminist, egalitarian, secularist atheist.</div>
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You make a lot of good points, including your criticisms of me, so thanks.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 1:35 pm</td></tr>
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Sorry, the predictive text on this machine sometimes comes up with some weird formulations! Hope you can understand my point.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Micha</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 1:37 pm</td></tr>
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“[Jerusalem] It’s probably, for these reasons nd others, the most difficult issue to solve in any future peace deal.”</div>
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Not really. The Jerusalem issue is completely one of trust and goodwill. If there was trust and goodwill then the Israelis and Palestinians would find some way to share custody of all the historical/religious sites that would protect all of them and respect the religious sensibilities of both sides. But since it serves the interest of many to turn Jerusalem into a contentious religious rallying point, it becomes a difficulty.</div>
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The most difficult issue to solve is the refugees, materially, ideologically and diplomatically.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 1:41 pm</td></tr>
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Penny,</div>
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Where did you send me these links? Thanks, I will follow them and respond when I’m able to.</div>
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But I don’t believe the clock should be set back to 1947 or even pre-1967. Unfortunately it’s hard for me to link on this device but google ‘Palestinian proposal Annapolis 2008′ and compare it to the Israeli proposal. I think a resolution will fall somewhere between those positions (though I recognise there are other issues, like refugees and Jerusalem).</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 1:43 pm</td></tr>
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Sarah AB,</div>
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I hope you don’t mind if I follow up those stories later. I’ll post a full reply, perhaps on my blog where you originally posted them. Sorry for the delay.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:02 pm</td></tr>
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Israeli nurse,</div>
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Thanks for that interesting post. Yes, I understand your implication, which is that throughout the Arab world there’s a tendency to neglect cultural sites, to use archaeology and history as a political weapon, so Hisham’s Palace is a symptom of a wider problem. I don’t disagree with that at all – unfortunately there is a major strain of parochialism in Arab culture, which I hope is changing slowly due to the Arab Spring and the Internet (though I also recognise the danger that things may be going in the opposite direction). Yes, Israel is better at preserving cultural sites, including non-Jewish ones.</div>
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As a caveat though, I must also point out that sprawl uses archaeology as a political weapon at times too. On my visit to Jericho, which as you know has many incredible historical and cultural sites of interest, I also visited Qumran, here the DeadbSea Scrolls were discovered. Before entering the site, you’re invited to watch a video about the history of the site. Now Qumran is under Israeli jurisdiction. The video we were shown was almost pure jingoistic propaganda: it spent much more time insisting that the site and environs were a Jewish area than telling us anything of historical value. By contrast, a similar video at Hisham’s Palace was totally non-political and very informative.</div>
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I don’t want to draw too much conclusion from this point, except to say both sides in this debate are prone to use history as a politicl tool.</div>
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As for your point (and Fabian Ben Israel’s) about Israelis not being allowed to visit these sites, I think I’m right in saying that is a provision of one of the renegotiations of the Oslo Accords. It’s not true that an Israeli would be lynched in Jericho! The town used to be a resort for pleasure-seeking Israelis before the aforementioned provision, and everyone I spoke to in Jericho told me how th town is suffering from the LACK of Israeli tourism, and how they’re desperate for the Israelis to be allowed back! The town used to have a huge casino that’s been closed since Israelis can no longer come and spend their money there. Do you agree with me that a way must be found for arabs and Jews to have full access to all areas of the West Bank?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:04 pm</td></tr>
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*sprawl = Israel. Damn predictive text!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Brownie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:10 pm</td></tr>
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<i>That means he completely ignored Res 242 preventing Israel to agreeing a border unless its linked to peace and security by discussion with the Palestinians.</i></div>
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He “ignored” no such thing because he did not contend that Israel could or should be agreeing borders that are not linked to peace and security. What is more – unless you are Peter under a different moniker – you *must* know this.</div>
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You keep using res.242 as reason why Israel must continue to deny the world any insight into what she thinks her territorial spread should like. That’s bogus in itself, but to pretend that anyone asking for Israel to state a position is therefore ignorant of res.242 displays the very ignorance that you are none too shy ascribing to others.</div>
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You could argue (per Micha) that doing so is not in Israel’s best interest, but this is an entirely different argument to claims that 242 precludes the possibility of Israel stating a position.</div>
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<i>Perhaps you should try and be a bit smarter rather than shooting from the lip.</i></div>
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Dcook, your problem is that as well as believing you are about seven times smarter than you really are, you also think anyone disagreeing with you is somehow dim. Your repeated claim that interlocutors who pick up on your misunderstandings are lacking in grey matter is quickly becoming your defining characteristic. It means you come across as a boorish oaf. I can’t believe you are like this in real life. Are you?</div>
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Micha,</div>
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I anticipated this response and I do have a little sympathy for it. I have no doubt that there are some who will use any stated claim by Israel (short of handing the PA everything they demand) as evidence of preconditions, intransigence, etc., but I still think that on balance it would help rather than hinder a peace process to have some firm understanding of the starting point of all parties concerned, including Israel’s opening gambit on borders.</div>
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As stated previously, I also believe that it suits this particular Israeli administration down to the ground to leave border claims undefined for reasons that have nothing to do with the (partly) justifiable concerns you cite and are, unfortunately, all too obvious.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:15 pm</td></tr>
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Micha,</div>
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I think we coul have an interesting debate about that. I’ve always felt the refugee issue is easy to solve. No right of return to Israel. Full right of return to the Palestinian state. Substantial compensation. (How much do you think the US, UN, EU etc would NOT pay to make this issue go away?) Plus a symbolic number, in the tens of thousands, of the original refugees allowed to return to effect family reunions. (Cynical as this may sound, these refugees will be too old to start families and alter Israel’s demographic balance.)</div>
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Now that is a solution Israel could live with. Thevquestion is, could the Palestinians? Well, we know moderate Palestinian opinion-makers have been promoting this solution for years – look up Sari Nusseibeh (a hero of mine). As for the PA, we know it has accepted this outcome from the leaked ‘Palestine Papers’. And, perhaps most surprisingly, polls have shown that a majority of the refugees would also accept this solution. Yes, there are polls and polls. But I think we have reason to be optimistic that the more moderate inclinations of people will win out IF a peace deal is put in front of them, backed by the world, and negotiated by a credible leader.</div>
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I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on this. I may be wrong,mof course.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:18 pm</td></tr>
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More news on the how the culturally sensitive Palestinians are protecting the archaeology of Jewrusalem.</div>
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<a href="http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=246012" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=246012</a></div>
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What a pathetic bunch. But then we know that.</div>
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As for Matt, well you gotta say the boy does hang in there. You know, I imagine some of his best friends really are Jews (and not just Norman Finklestein, whom he admires).</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:20 pm</td></tr>
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Brownie,</div>
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Thanks for your comments. Even if we disagree on many things (which we probably do), it’s a relief to find someone who seems eminently sane and reasonable here, and willing to take people on in the face of howling opprobrium.</div>
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And, yes, I wouldn’t normally be so rude, but Dcook overestimates his intelligence to an absurd degree. It’s stupefying. And I don’t mind saying that some of my harshest critics here – like Alan A – are obviously intelligent.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Micha</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:25 pm</td></tr>
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“still think that on balance it would help rather than hinder a peace process to have some firm understanding of the starting point of all parties concerned, including Israel’s opening gambit on borders.”</div>
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If Israel gave any opening gambit on borders that was not complete capitulation to Palestinian demands, then it would reduce it’s flexibility to negotiate while gaining nothing in return.</div>
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“I also believe that it suits this particular Israeli administration down to the ground to leave border claims undefined for reasons that have nothing to do with the (partly) justifiable concerns you cite and are, unfortunately, all too obvious.”</div>
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Yet even this government’s stated position is that there will be a Palestinian state in the West Bank. So even a right wing Israel is talking in terms of withdrawal. The question is only one of quantity. Moreover, we also know that both Livni’s party and Labor have made pretty extensive offers as far as the amount of territory is concerned. So it should be pretty clear what the intentions of Israel are. So what’s the benefit of putting anything more at the table at this stage, except that the Palestinians will pocket that offer while saying that it is not enough and proves Israeli does not want peace.</div>
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“It’s not true that an Israeli would be lynched in Jericho!”</div>
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It would be extremely irresponsible for any Israeli to put that theory to the test unless he is coming as part of a left-wing delegation.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:27 pm</td></tr>
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<div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">
Michael Rabins,</div>
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You seem to be implying I’m an anti-Semite. I’d be grateful if you would state plainly that you think I’m racist towards Jews, or make clear that you don’t think that.</div>
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I’ve posted two public pieces about Finkelstein, both of them critical (I.e. they were framed as criticisms, they didn’t just include criticisms). But some of his scholarship is excllent. If you have any reason to gainsay, for instance, his demolition job on Joan Peters – which destroyed the reputation of a widely praised author and book – there are many scholarly journals waiting for your contribution.</div>
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You won’t find a single sentence where I’ve praised some of Finkelstein’s more extreme views – on the contrary, in fact.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:36 pm</td></tr>
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Barad,</div>
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I’m glad you’ve said you’ll retract your view if I prove it wrong. So your claim that I have no connection to Israel is wrong. My parents live there. I live there much of the time. I won’t start telling you about all my friends and links on both sides. Will you admit now you were wrong?</div>
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You were also wrong when you said I haven’t been to London lately if I don’t think it’s been taken over by foreigners. Now that IS racist, and I don’t mind saying so. In fact, it slightly disgusts me, since my girlfriend – with whom I live, in London, you ignorant racist fucking cunt – is of Indian descent.</div>
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So you were wrong on two counts. I live in both Israel and london. No, it has not been taken over by foreigners, you moron. And if you think you’re not a racist cunt, you’re wrong on three counts. I’ll only reply to you again if you retract or explain your comments.</div>
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</div>levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-69047636467442225922011-11-23T10:38:00.000+00:002011-11-23T10:38:01.905+00:00More HP comments on UNESCO post<div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:39 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Actually I think you’re trying your hardest not to be an anti-semite. And I don’t see this post as evidence of it either. But are you one? Hell I don’t know. And don’t really care, to be honest. Jews like me are wayyyy beyond caring about British leftist Palestine-groupies. In fact, I almost feel sorry for them. Almost.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">BUt what you are, in spite of your cleverness, is shallow. You are stuck in the modern, liberal secular mindset. YOu purport to discuss Jews without knowing a single thing about Judaism. YOu are like an icebergologist who’se never had the curiosity of depth to peek under the waterline. And I rather suspect this superficiality extends to Palestine too. A true Guardianista mind.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Re Finklestein, I recall admiring reviews in your blog. Again (and I’m working from memory), you chide him for vulgarity, not substance. IN other words, you just don’t get it. No surprises there.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">But I think you are decent person, and genuinely trying to ethically engage with a very difficult subject. Keep going. There is always hope.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Brownie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:43 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><i>If Israel gave any opening gambit on borders that was not complete capitulation to Palestinian demands, then it would reduce it’s flexibility to negotiate while gaining nothing in return.</i></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">The whole point of an opening gambit is that flexibility to negotiate is built in.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">In any event, we all know that the only practical agreement will be based <i>roughly</i> along pre-67 lines. Saying something akin to this gives any Israeli govt sufficient room to negotiate on Jerusalem and some of the W/B settlements, etc.. The only thing an Israeli govt. stands to lose from such an announcement is the support of right-wingers whose terms for peace don’t include anything resembling a functional Palestinian state.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><i>Yet even this government’s stated position is that there will be a Palestinian state in the West Bank. So even a right wing Israel is talking in terms of withdrawal.</i></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I’d take a careful look at the small-print. The suspicion is that Netanyahu’s idea of what a ’state’ looks like when discussing the Palestinian variety does not necessarily chime with your average person’s interpretation of the term.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:46 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Micha,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I think an Israeli soldier would be lynched in Jericho, if undefended, and so would an Israeli settler. But a regular Israeli? I doubt it, because when I wander roundvWest Bank towns, alone, at night, as I have done for years, I sometimes get curious glances, and I sometimes get people asking me, politely, in broken Hebrew, if I’m Israeli. By the way, I look pretty Jewish – dark, handsome, you know – and everywhere I go in israel people start talking to me in Hebrew (which I speak very badly). So I’ve always assumed most Israelis would have the same experience of West Bank towns as me – certainly Bethlehem, perhaps not so much Hebron. Obviously Gaza would be a different story. What about Nazareth? I’m assuming you’re Israeli. Do you ever go there?</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Micha</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:48 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">“Now that is a solution Israel could live with. Thevquestion is, could the Palestinians? Well, we know moderate Palestinian opinion-makers have been promoting this solution for years – look up Sari Nusseibeh (a hero of mine). As for the PA, we know it has accepted this outcome from the leaked ‘Palestine Papers’. And, perhaps most surprisingly, polls have shown that a majority of the refugees would also accept this solution. ”</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Nusseiba might be a good guy, but he is about as much of an opinion maker among Palestinians as Uri Avneri is in Israel. What he says has little bearing on anything. And it is also pretty clear he broke rank from Palestinian public opinion by coming outright and stating a willingness to compromise on the right of return. Back in my Peace Now days I was in his headquarters several times. It was pretty discouraging.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">As for the Palestinian Papers, it’s advisable to read the fine print on things like that. They often turn out to be more disappointing then they seemed at first. For example, did the Palestine Papers say that the Palestinians agreed to Olmert’s offer or simply noted that he made an offer?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I don’t know what polls you are speaking about. In general I tend to be dubious about polls from either side. It seems anybody can find the right polls to suit his needs.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">“I think we have reason to be optimistic”</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">In the middle east it is irresponsible to be optimistic.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I think it should be pretty clear that Palestinian public opinion has been accustomed to a very idealized view of the right of return. So at the very least we must admit that any Palestinian leader will have a very difficult uphill battle to convince his own people. And no, this is not like Jerusalem in the Israeli side. Jerusalem has been openly on the table and openly discussed in Israel for at least since 2000.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">“the more moderate inclinations of people will win out IF a peace deal is put in front of them, backed by the world, and negotiated by a credible leader.”</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">There are a lot of IFs there. Somehow it is always easy to explain why all these IFs justify Palestinian hesitation, but the same courtesy is not given to Israelis. When Israelis hesitate people don’t say IF only… they just say that Israelis don’t want peace. As it is the Palestinian already know that two or even three (counting Livni) Israeli leaders have placed peace deals on the table that included a Palestinian state. Yet none of these offers have resulted in a willingness to be more flexible on the right of return. It is possible that the Israeli offers didn’t have enough in them to fulfill your IF. But you should also consider the possibility that your IF might be too optimistic.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:58 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Michael Rabins,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I assure you it takes very little effort for me to avoid anti-semitism. If anything I would describe myself as a philo-Semite, or, to speak less clumsily, I would say I am an enthusiastic consumer of masses of Jewish culture, as anyone who’s interested in 20th C literature, comedy, films, etc, is bound to be. This has very little to do with politics though, and nothing to do with this piece – and neither do your condescending comments about my Guardianista characteristics. However, at least you credit me with sincerity, so thanks. I guess I can only hope that one day I’m wise and knowledgable enough to post comments on the Internet that have nothing to do with the matter at hand, accusing others of lacking my wisdom.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">By the way, you’re right about one thing. I’m no expert on Judaism as a religion. This is an omission. Obviously I know the most important thing about it, just like I know the most important thing about all religions, which is that they’re total baloney. But I’d like to read more on the subject and if you cn suggest any good books written from a scholarly, impartial perspective, I’ll order them today.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:59 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt – with reference to your 2.15 comment – one problem seems to be that some senior Palestinians don’t seem to want to allow full right of Palestinian return to a Palestinian state.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 3:05 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Micha,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Fair points all, and this is exactly the kind of discussion I’d like to be having – although it’s off topic – instead of shouting down the catcalls.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">You may be right I’m too optimistic that the Palestinians will agree to the conditions i stated. Certainly it will be a struggle to convince them. One issue in the whole conflict I can’t find a good book on is the whole issue of the refugees. Maybe I’ll have to write it. I’ll look into this more.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Fair point re. Nusseibeh. He’s marginal. Although he was seen as a PLO guy for many years, a Fatah guy, and he gets away with these heterodox views because stupidly Israel once gave him the ultimate credibility boost by imprisoning him on fictitious spying charges, have you read his autobiography? I would almost class it beside Amos Oz ‘A Tale of Love and Darkness’, which is for the ages.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 3:13 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">An elegant reply, thanks. Let me ask you a simple question. Imagine you’re an Israeli man, with a family, living (say) in Netanya, about 9.5 miles away from the barrier that separates you from 350 million screaming, hate-filled, anti-semitic morons who live hopeless lives and have hopeless pasts, and who express in almost every violent way possible the desire and duty to kill you, your wife, your children and every other Jew in Israel (and probably beyond). And behind them, another BILLION Muslims, all pretty much infected with the same zealous and atavistic hatred…</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">What would you think?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">How would you act?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">What chances would you take?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">And what would constitute right and wrong in this ethically desolate setting?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I sometimes think you British (the good ones, and I think there are many) suffer from never having lost a war. You simply don’t get it.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Did you read the article I posted about what those psychopaths are doing in Jerusalem? And if they are so determined to destroy our past, how much worse are their intentions for our future?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I’ll spell it out for you. I trust me, my gun, my family, my friends, and my nation. The Arabs are my enemy, and I will do whatever I have to do to defeat them. It really is that simple. And this from a former Peace Nownik…</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">PS Re religion, I’m afraid I can’t recommend anything, firstly because there is SO MUCH, but secondly, because it feels uncomfortably like proselytising. Google will have one or two things, I suspect ;)</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Barad</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 3:20 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Hey the dirty little anti-semite called me a cunt-now that is a funny. Keyboard warriors are ten a penny but I’d love to see you call me a cunt to my face. Where in London do you live?</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 3:20 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Sarah AB,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">The senior Palestinians you’re referring to are lying, and for a specific reason. When Sari Nusseibeh came out in Al Quds newspaper and said the ‘right of return’ must be compromised on, he was part of an informal PA cabinet. At the next meeting, in his telling, Abu Mazen attacked him for his view. NOT, you understand, because he disagreed that the right of return would have to be given up, but because, in his words, ‘that’s our best negotiating card – we’re keeping it to trade away as part of a final negotiation’.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Nusseibeh replied that if everyone know you plan to trade it away, it’s not a very good negotiating card. He added that by being dishonest, and telling the refugees that one day they’ll be restored to their paradise lost, the PA was just compounding their misery and creating false hope.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">So it seems that, in the PA at least, it’s well known the the Palestinian refugees will have no right of return to Israel, but full right of return to Palestine.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">The problem relates to something that’s been alluded to in discussions above, about Israel’s borders and res. 242. Any time each side shows willing to make a concession, the other side ‘banks’ it, and that becomes the new starting point for negotiations. For instance, when Arafat recognised Israel he thought he was compromising in order to achieve a state on 22% of historic Palestine. But now that’s seen as the benchmark, as maximalist, and Israel insists the Palestinians must accept 90% of 22%.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">So both sides keep their cards close to their chest, which gives the impression of inflexibility on both sides. So you can’t always take officials on either side at their word about what their demands are.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Look at the two proposals at Annapolis in 2008. And read up on Condi Rice’s account of recent talks. The two sides are closer to agreement than many think. Unfortunately we need Hamas and Netanyahu to be ejected.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Barad</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 3:29 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><a href="http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/5228919-matt-hill" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/5228919-matt-hill</a></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt, I see you are currently reading about Iraq, Palestine (multiple entries!), Hitler, something by Illan Pappe, Chomsky and incongrously Mother Tereza. No patterns there then…very Jew obsessed for a gentile, no (or nu)?</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 3:32 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Barad,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I won’t meet you for a fight – that would be embarrassing for us both, wouldn’t it? I’ll retract my comment if you retract yours, and I’ll happily meet you for a beer if you like. I’m sure you’ll be surprised by how reasonable I am. The only condition I will make is that I bring my Indian girlfriend as protection – and that the first one’s on me. Do you still want to know where I live?</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 3:37 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Barad,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Impressive research! Although that list is a little old. I was actually reading the Hitler book to try and understand Jewish history better, not in order to find tips on how to commit genocide. The Chomsky book I admit I didn’t finish – his style is so turgid. You can find my review of the Ilan Pappe book at a site called Review 31.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 3:41 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Just read your review if Pappe’s screed. Disappointing.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">It’s really simple: you support our enemies, hook, line and sinker.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 3:42 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">… but of course, you LOVE Woody Allen.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 3:43 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I’m not sure Jew-obsessed is quite the right word, but yes, I’ve read loads of books by Jews. I used to study Eng Lit, and my dissertation was on the male ego in 20th C American Jewish Lit: Roth, Bellow, Salinger, Mailer and Heller. My favourite TV show is Curb Your Enthusiasm and my favourite contemporary comic is Sarah Silverman. I also love Woody Allen but my favourite filmmaker is Ingmar Bergman, who wasn’t, I believe, Jewish.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">So make of all that what you will. Would you like to know anything else about me?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Anyone want to talk about UNESCO and Hisham’s Palace?</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Penny</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 3:49 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I sent you both towards the end of the discussion on your previous article.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Here’s the Dershowitz speech again:</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><a href="http://www.pjtv.com/?cmd=mpg&load=6057&mpid=45" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://www.pjtv.com/?cmd=mpg&load=6057&mpid=45</a></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">(Incidentally, there were several interesting speeches regarding the UN made at this conference)</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">And here’s Rostow’s commentary:</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><a href="http://www.tzemachdovid.org/Facts/islegal1.shtml" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://www.tzemachdovid.org/Facts/islegal1.shtml</a></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">As co-author of Res 242, Rostow obviously knows exactly what it was intended to address and writes about the apparently deliberate attempts to confuse its aims.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 3:51 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Michael Rabins,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I can’t believe this is turning into some kind of inquisition about whether I’m a racist. Especially when one of the inquisitors said, a moment ago, that London has been taken over by foreigners.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Take a moment to look at yourselves. You don’t really think I’m a racist, but you don’t like me or my views. So what you’re trying to do is scour everything out there about me to find some suspect comment or evidence of ‘Jew-obsession’, in order to intimidate me.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Well, it won’t work, and I think it looks very ugly. Don’t you realise this is what real anti-Semites claim? That supporters of Israel try to silence dissent by throwing around casual insinuations of racism?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Now I don’t actually think you’re typical of supporters of Israel, so I don’t agree with that. But you’re working very hard to play up to some nasty stereotypes.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Must we go on with this nonsense?</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 3:53 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Michael Rabin,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">You’re welcome to tell me what ou think of my Pappe review at that website.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 3:54 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Penny,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Thanks. I have trouble with links on my phone but I’ll reply later. Are you just asking for a general comment?</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Discredited Andrew</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 3:55 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">“Anyone want to talk about UNESCO and Hisham’s Palace?”</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I think the next topic of debate will be whether you liking Ingmar Bergman makes you a Naaaazi.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I am interested in this heritage question, though – I know next to nothing about it. It seems obvious to me as a secular leftist that these sites shouldn’t “belong” to anyone and should be maintained collectively and should be open to all. I despair when I see either “side” trying to use these sites to make cheep territorial arguments.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 3:56 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I just did.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Pappe, Chomsky and Finkelstein. Your kinda Jews.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Figures.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 3:59 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">… and Woody Allen, of course.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:01 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">So you do think I’m an anti-Semite? Please stop insinuating, and say so. Or retract and apologise.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">By the way, anyone can read my (mixed) review of Pappe’s book here if the like: <a href="http://review31.co.uk/article/view/8/strangers-in-their-own-home" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://review31.co.uk/article/view/8/strangers-in-their-own-home</a></div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:08 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I think it’s disappointing that nobody’s stepping in at this point to say: Michael Rabins, anti-semitism is a serious thing and your disgraceful attempt to smear someone whose views are somewhere around the liberal Zionist/moderate pro-Palestinian place on the spectrum is trivialising that serious issue. Everyone is very quick to pounce on anti-Semitic or suspiciously anti-Semitic comments, and that’s only right. Such issues demand a high degree of vigilance. But you cheapen the accusation of anti-semitism if you direct it at people like me, and under this article of all articles! It’s an insult to the real victims of, say, anti-Semitic violence. Whom I would defend, I think, with my life.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Brownie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:09 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><i>… but of course, you LOVE Woody Allen</i></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV2N4KSh3x4" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">Who doesn’t</a>?</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:11 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Maybe. Maybe not. Who cares?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">But you sure as hell obsess about Israel a lot, and you sure as hell do seem to read a lot of people who hate us and you sure as hell seem to support those who wish to see us destroyed. I guess I distrust people like you Matt. Too Jew-centric for my tastes. It usually smells bad.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">But of course! You have an Indian girlfriend! And you love Woody Allen! And your parents live in (holds nose…) Israel! How dare I subject you to scrutiny?! You must be morally perfect!</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">PS Love the way you transform my criticisms of you into an endorsement of anti-semite victimology! Very cute!</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Brownie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:15 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><i>I think it’s disappointing that nobody’s stepping in at this point…</i></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Oh come on, Matt, you must know by now that as well as having some of the most erudite commenters of all political blogs, HP has more than its (growing) fair share of halfwits who can see anti-Semitism in a jam sandwich. There’s no benefit to be had confronting them. They are as bad as the soft-soapers of Islamism that are the focus of 90% of the posts. Fuck ‘em.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:15 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">OK Matt, this is what I think….</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I don’t think you’re an anti-semite (you love Woody Allen, whereas Himmler wouldn’t have, I’m sure!).</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I do think you support Israel’s enemies (especially the Jewish ones, who protect you nicely) and, by extension wish to see her destroyed. NOt much about Darfur or Kurdistan on your reading sits, I see. Ho hum, who cares about them, huh?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">So what does that make you? YOu tell me Matt.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:16 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Michael Rabins,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I’m Israel-obsessed, I admit. I live there part of the year, after all. Ive read hundreds of books about it. I write a blog about it. If I weren’t Israel obsessed, I wouldn’t have any business writing these things.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">And you’re not subjecting me to scrutiny, you’re just embarrassing yourself. Take on my arguments, but please stop this nonsense.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:17 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Well, I don’t live in Darfur, you moron. Please just shut up now.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:18 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Brownie,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">You of all people have been a voice of reason. Thanks.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Penny</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:21 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">“Are you just asking for a general comment?”</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I’m not asking for anything, Matt. I just thought Rostow’s commentary might increase your understanding of Res 242. Coming from a co-author it’s as close as any of us can get to the truth. I’ve checked later comments from Lord Caradon and Arthur Goldberg and they are not in dissent.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I believe Dershowitz was also in the background of Res 242, but anyway, although his speech is mostly about the UN, the bit in which he mentions his discussion with Fayyad was interesting and might add to our overall understanding of the part Jerusalem might play in future negotiations.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Brownie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:22 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><i>But you sure as hell obsess about Israel a lot</i></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">This is HP. Obsessing about Israel in one way or another is mandatory.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:23 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I wish to see Israel destroyed??? You’re mad. I want to Israel AVOID the destruction and moral degradation its current leaders are working hard to bring about. I’m pro-Israel, for god’s sake! Can’t you understand you can support a country and want it to prosper and hate its government? How do you think I feel about David Cameron? Or the fucking Palestinian Authority?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Stop wasting my time, please.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:28 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Michael Rabins,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Actually there’s a fair bit about Kurdistan on my reading list, and if you knew what Kurdistan was you’d be able to see that. But when you say such things, you don’t mean ‘if only people cared about the Kurds as much as the Palestinians’, you mean ‘if only people cared about the Palestinians as little as they do about the Kurds’.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I feel like I’ve wasted my afternoon.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:30 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Talking to some of these people is like vomiting brain cells. I could have re-read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in all the time I’ve wasted here.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:33 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><i>I don’t see why the Palestinians shouldn’t agree to recognise Israel as a ‘Jewish state’</i></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">If Israel says it wants to be recognised as the “Fairy Queen Of Chicken Soup” then it has every right, as a sovreign nation, to say what it wants to be called. If Iran and Pakistan wish to be known as The Islamic Republic….” then do we have anyone objecting? So why single out Israel?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">The whole point is that Palestinians (substantially Muslims) have a historic and religious hatred of Jews and to recognise anything Jewish sticks in their throats. They are going to have to conceded because I will 100% bet that “The Jewish State” will be written into any peace offer.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:34 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt, we are faced every day with a mad, compulsive, insane enemy who live (let me remind you) about 9 miles from where my owen family live. We are constanty under threat, militarily, ideologically and politically. As we have been for 2000 years. (Yes, you and your bitch-groupie Brownie can mock all you like…).</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">What do I see, beyond your accommodating prose and your affection for Woody Allen and Saul Bellow?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I see someone who supports our worst enemies with a passion that can only be described as obsessional.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I leave you now to return to your Chomsky, Finkelstein and Pappe, your morally unassailable Indian girlfriend, and your little Jew obsession.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Enjoy!</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:39 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">What do you think Brownie?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">A fan of Finkelstein?</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:40 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><i>Talking to some of these people is like vomiting brain cells. I could have re-read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in all the time I’ve wasted here.</i></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">“Liberty, if it means anything…….”</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Yes Matt, you HAVE wasted a lot of time here. You once commented whether people here had anything else to do. I suggest you review how many posted replies you’ve made and ask yourself the same question.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I get an impression that you’ve come here to try and change opinions and you have miserably, but valiantly, failed. You need to learn more and speak less.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:43 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Dcook,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I’m sorry to inform you that I pretty much agree with you. Apart from the characteristically over-egged bit about all Muslims hating all Jews, I think youre right.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">The question is, what does ‘Jewish state’ mean? The UK is an Anglican state, but that means very little. If a Jewish state is a state with government of, by and for Jews, then there’s a problem: 20% of Israelis aren’t Jewish. But if it means a state that, in view of Jewish people’s history of persecution, exists partly to provide a homeland and protection for Jews, while upholding the rights of its non-Jewish citizens, then I have no problem with the term ‘Jewish state’ and neither should the Palestinin leadership. And as you say, quite honestly what I or Abu Mazen ‘recognise’ about Israel is pretty irrelevant, so why not comply ith Israel’s request? I don’t think it’s a big deal.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:44 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Dcook,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Yes, I’ve neglected my other duties to try and answer every moment because otherwise I get accused of evasion.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:45 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">*moment = comment</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:47 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I mean I agree with yr comment about the ‘Jewish state’, not your usual criticism of me. Obviously.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">‘Fan’ of Finkelstein is pushing it, definitely, btw.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:48 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Thanks for your response to my question about Palestinian refugees Matt. Obviously, like Brownie, I don’t agree with the accusations of antisemitism. It’s interesting that it is seen as suspect that you are too interested in books by and about Jews. On another thread I was essentially accused of being stupid or perhaps deceitful because I had never heard of the Protocols until a few years ago. One can’t win!</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:52 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">This thread has become so silly I don’t even want to participate, other than that I think Matt is coming in for a lot of really unfair flak from inflexible minds. That’s all folks.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 4:55 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Yes, I think this article should be posted again, alongside another one where I write ‘I am an anti-Semite who wants to see Israel destroyed. Discuss.’</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Then we could have one reasonable discussion, dominated by people like Abu faris. And another unreasonable one, dominated be Peter and Dcook and Michael Rabins and Barad and… well, a lot of people.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 5:05 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Ok, here something for discussion…</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt clearly isn’t an anti-semite (and incidentally, nowhere have I said he is…)</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">But….</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">…how do you describe a person who likes (even loves!) diaspora Jews and Jewish culture (you know, chicken soup, Woody Allen etc etc) … but who also unambiguously (with a few, elegant gripes about style) champions those who support Israel’s enemies… and who regards this (in spite of not being Jewish or Arab or Muslim) as THE most important issue in the whole world?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">It’s a genuine puzzle, no? Is such a person an anti-semite? Of course not! He likes Woody and his lovely Punjabi girl is force-fed Gefilte Fish.. (ok, that’s going too far – I apologise)…. and so on.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Am I being too cynical in suggesting that what this person likes is emasculated Judaism – a Judaism that is neutered, a Judaism that rendered tolerable by its “orientalism” (take that Said!).</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">The kind of cute, joke Judaism that nice people in the Home Counties can have a quiet laugh at, but never fear (only anti-semites will fear it!).</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">But this same crypto-philo-semite also (perhaps innocently, though I cannot believe that) intellectually advances those who would like to see Israel destroyed.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Is this person an anti-semite? No, I don’t think so. But what is he?</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 5:14 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">You have to take some other things into account. It’s not just diaspora Jewish culture I love. I worship Amos Oz and David Grossman this side idolatry; I think Tom Segev is one of the best historians in the world; and I love Israel, I love Tel Aviv, and the beautiful views over Haifa bay (where in 2006 I ducked Hezbollah rockets); I hugely admire the idealism and pioneer spirit of early Zionism, it’s Utopianism, its feminism; I think Israeli girls are the most beautiful in the world (after Indians, obviously). I hate gefilte fish.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">But I think Israel’s occupation of the territories is beastly.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">What have I got, doc?</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Discredited Andrew</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 5:14 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">“No, I don’t think so. But what is he?”</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">He’s what an islamist might call a kufir. Or what a stalinist might call a trotskyite-nazi enemy of the socialist motherland. Or an American rightist might call un-American. Or what an anti-semite might call an alien, decadent element undermining the nation’s morals.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Danny Smircky</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 5:15 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I’m with Brownie on this. Leave Matt Hill alone.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">He’s not an antisemite. Just someone who has an exceedingly high opinion of his own intellectual worth; someone who seems to need getting his ego stroked. Which is why I assume he takes so much trouble in responding to all these comments.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">No doubt you’re young Matt and if you learn humility then this is all forgivable. But do remember that watching people display visceral passion about a subject – in this case the IP conflict – is not done for your amusement. It matters to them far more than it seems to do to you. Nothing wrong with that of course, but you must therefore appreciate why some commentators regard you with suspicion since in their eyes – whatever your views – you don’t appear to have a stake in this debate.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">And yes, it would have been nice if this thread could have stuck with Hisham’s Palace, and the Tree of Life</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 5:18 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I don’t think you’re cynical, by the way. I think you’re probably paranoid, less intelligent than you think, unaccustomed to being gainsaid by people significantly smarter than you, somewhat lacking in imagination or empathy, and trapped in a rather dualistic worldview where everyone is either for or against you. Oh, and probably a bit cynical too.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 5:19 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">See!!! He hates Gefilte fish!!! Told you!!!</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Good post Danny. And apologies from me for having hi-jacked this thread down Jew-paranoia Alley. I think it was the JP article on Palestinian archaeo-terror that got me into this mood. Oh, and the usual threats, insults and calls for war. BUt that’s… err… another story.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 5:25 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Danny Smircky,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Thanks for sticking up for me. As they say, with friends like you, who needs friends?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I actually make time to reply to these comments because, after my first HP article, things went so crazy that I couldn’t keep up. Do I have an inflated view of my own intellect or an ego that needs stroking? Maybe. Nobody’s perfect.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">But I do have a pretty huge stake in this debate, actually.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">And you’re mistaken about my being young and naive. Actually I’m 74.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Discredited Andrew</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 5:28 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">“I think Tom Segev is one of the best historians in the world”</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I find Pappe to be underwhelming and moralistic, Morris is too positivistic – he just never puts two and two together. But Segev is just right. I don’t know about one of the best in the world, but he’s a great historian.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 5:34 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Oh, and also, I find that if I leave the thread for a day, it turns into a chance for everyone to reinforce each other’s paranoid view of me, and by the time I get back I find I’m a fully paid-up Nazi. But if I keep replying, people gradually Elise I’m more reasonable and less predictable than they thought.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">And if you think I participate in these threads – where I’m condemned as stupid, excoriated as racist, and patronised as young and naive even by people who stick up for me – you must think I’m some kind of masochist!</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nate</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 5:34 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt,<br />
I think it’s irresponsible to compare Netanyahu to Hamas or Arafat to Israeli leadership. Arafat, within days of Oslo, made clear to his public that this was part of a stage plan to get all of “Palestine”, so the concession that you suggest Israel “banked” was hardly made in good faith or even considered a concession. On the flipside, much of Jerusalem (wrongly) was offered in good faith and is now consistently on the bargaining table. As for saying that both Hamas and Netanyahu have to go, I wonder what it is you demand of Netanyahu. Would you like him to be the first Likud Prime Minister to accept a Palestinian State (more so than Rabin ever did)? Done. Would you like him to be the first Prime Minister to freeze settlement? Done. Would you like him to agree to negotiations without preconditions? Done. Would you like Hamas to stop demanding all of Israel be destroyed and that Jews everywhere should die? That one’s a stretch. In what world are these equal impediments to peace?<br />
More important is your continued insistence to believe only the Palestinian words/opinions/polls that you find reasonable, expecting Israel to take risks on them. Now that is a solution Israel could live with.<br />
‘look up Sari Nusseibeh (a hero of mine)’<br />
Your hero moderate hero just wrote a piece called “Why Israel can’t be a ‘Jewish State’. Is this in anyway equivalent to the compromise views of moderates on the Israeli side?<br />
‘As for the PA, we know it has accepted this outcome from the leaked ‘Palestine Papers’.’<br />
Well, no, we don’t. In fact they have never accepted any kind of outcome, or they would already have a state. Perhaps you can direct us to the point in the Pentagon Papers where they accept this outcome.<br />
‘And, perhaps most surprisingly, polls have shown that a majority of the refugees would also accept this solution.’<br />
That’s suprising indeed since a Palestine Center of Public Opinion poll just last month shows:<br />
“In regard to the question: “Do you think that Palestinians – in exchange for having their own independent state and concluding a peace deal with Israel – should give up their insistence about the Right of Return, which Israel will never accept, or not ?”, the striking majority of (89.8%) answered:”No, they shouldn’t do that even if no peace deal would be concluded”, whilst only (6.8%) said “Yes, Palestinians should do that”, and (3.4%) said “ I don’t know”.<br />
And responding to the question: “In case the Palestinian leadership would waive the Right of Return and accept in exchange for that the monetary compensation, would you accept that too, or refuse it ?”, (89.5%) said “I would refuse that”, whilst only (7.3%) said “I would accept that” and (3.2%) said “I don’t know”.”<br />
In light of the views of the Palestinian public and even Nusseibeh, I’m not sure what makes them moderate and Netanyahu an extremist in line with Hamas. While I understand that you support Israel as a Jewish state and a two state solution, it is this tendency to let a rejectionist society off the hook despite their own words and celebration of terror, while placing Israeli leadership as an obstacle to peace, that shows an idealized slant that has no basis or place in a reality where people’s lives are at stake.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 5:35 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">*Elise = realise. Predictive text hazards.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Danny Smircky</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 5:36 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt, I’m sure that you’re a perfectly reasonable guy and that if we met in a pub we’d get on just fine.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">What seems to have wound up some people on HP is that they think you argue in bad faith; because you tailor your views according to your audience so as to observe their reaction. And if I understand you correctly, you’ve said this yourself. Also what some people around her perceive as your condescending remarks to certain posters, which are a substitute for debate.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Personally, I’m happy to agree with you where I agree, and disagree where I don’t. But in general, and whatever the temptations, do work a little on your tone.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nate</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 5:36 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Also.. I still can’t even begin to understand the point of the original article. That’s why people have gone so off topic, I think. They’re just looking for meaning where none is apparent.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Brownie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 5:40 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><i>What do you think Brownie? A fan of Finkelstein?</i></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I’ve got all his films.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 5:43 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Bet you have Brownie.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 5:56 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Danny,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I probably get defensive. But when you consider that, amongst other instances of abuse on this thread, under what was a pretty innocuous article, someone asked where I live so he could come and fight me, I think it’s understandable. I haven’t been blogging for long, despite my advanced years, so I guess I need to learn never to react.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">But you’re wrong it’s my tone in debate that winds people up. It’s the fact that I write here at all and am known to have some very strong criticisms of Israel. Have a look at this thread again, if you can stomach it. Did the abuse start before or after I responded?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I don’t quite ‘tailor’ my views. My views are my views. But some of my views are more acceptable to one ’side’ and some are more acceptable to the other. Since I have a few platforms where I write regularly, I try and write against the grain of my audience, as it were. I wouldn’t go on a pro-Palestinian site and complain about how nasty the occupation is. Not normally. What would be the point?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">This is due to the polarisation of views in the UK media, which I wrote about in my first post here – the one, I think, that caused so many people to decide I was beyond the pale. I think we all need to have our assumptions challenged. I’ve had some of mine challenged since writing for HP, and for that I’m glad.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I don’t think I can be accused of ducking debate. I’m sorry, but there just isn’t a lot of debate going on here, not on this thread. There are a lot of people saying, “matt hill, you’re not an anti-Semite, not quite, it’s just that your problem is…”</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Eventually maybe HP posters will realise, whether they like it or not, I disagree with them for sincere reasons, that I know a bit about the subject, that I have a stake in it, and so on. Then we can have a good debate, which I look forward to.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">You seem reasonable too; I have no beef with you at all. When you’re as old as I am, you appreciate people crediting your sincerity, even if they don’t agree with you.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 6:03 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Nate,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">The point of this thread was to draw attention to a scandalous instance of neglect of a priceless cultural relic. I tied it into some other issues – PA corruption, UNESCO, etc – to make it topical. I know you think my choice of subject was strange, since, as you say, there are other cultural sites that also need protection. But I can’t talk about them all, and it so happens I was in Jericho not so long ago, and I was really disgusted by all the bird shit all over this beautiful mosaic, and I thought: ‘Im going to blog about that!’</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I don’t really know why I’m explaining this.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">As for the rest of your post, I’m going to reply shortly. You do make reasonable points. I’m sorry you think I’m so awful, because in the main I think you’re all right.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I have to duck out for a bit but I’ll post a full reply to your long comment when I get back, with references.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nate</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 6:04 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I’ll also throw out the fact that very few people who consider themselves “Pro-Israel” could come up with so many tenuous and illegitimate justifications for Israel to be singled out, both in the Middle East and the world at large.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nate</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 6:08 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I never said that I thought you were awful. I happen to think your sentiment is laudible… I just think it tends to be wrong, lacking in evidence, and biased by your inability to condemn Palestinian society at large.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>boyinthebubble</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 6:14 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">If I may say so, I feel the kind of debate you are looking for is ill-suited for a forum where comments are deleted after seven days. I like the HP forum because it moves at the pace of current events and there is a wide spectrum of views expressed. I certainly don’t come here in order to arrive at a consensus view on a subject, or to be herded into a group marked ‘reasonable’ or ‘unreasonable’. I would normally not post under a pseudonym but at HP it seems appropriate to the kind of discussion that goes on here. I have no time for fence-sitters or prevarication; they, and it, don’t belong here. What I want is to hear clearly thought out and informed opinion without too many ifs and maybes. So to put it more clearly, I would expect to hear comments that are not geared to courting favour or agreement, but are posted to express an opinion.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Your posts have prompted a lot of comments, not all of those responses are necessarily well informed, but I’ve learnt more from some of those who have gotten their arse out with you than I have from your verbose meanderings. I like this play-pen precisely for the crazy stuff you seem to bemoan.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Anywho, I hope you continue to post and can keep a lid on the need you feel to explain where you’re coming from; as the good man once said, never say sorry, never explain.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 6:50 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">boyinthebubble,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Fair enough comments; I’m learning too.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Nate,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Longer reply to your post on the way, but 1. I guess in my last post I was at fault for not making it clear that I didnt consider all the various reasons why Israel is singled out FAIR; I was trying to explain why I don’t think anti-semitism is one of the main reasons. It’s the difference between explaining a phenomenon and justifying it. A doctor who explains why a disease comes about isn’t ’supporting’ cancer. But I guess, I repeat, I was at fault, because it was clear I somewhat approved of SOME of the reasons why Israel is singled out – like the quite reasonable fact that it’s held to its own high standards – creating the impression I approved of all of them, and approved of singling Israel out, which I don’t. I should have been clearer. And I should have added another one, which is that the Arab world is in a very poor state and uses Israel as a scapegoat for its problems. 2. Thanks for at least acknowledging I’m sincere. I don’t mind being thought sincerely wrong.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 6:51 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><i>Dcook, your problem is that as well as believing you are about seven times smarter than you really are, you also think anyone disagreeing with you is somehow dim.</i></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">The most perfect description of Brownie I have seen.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Danny Smircky</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 6:57 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt, thanks for your thoughtful response.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">“Eventually maybe HP posters will realise, whether they like it or not, I disagree with them for sincere reasons, that I know a bit about the subject, that I have a stake in it, and so on. Then we can have a good debate, which I look forward to.”</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">With regards to the comments above; yes, I would like to move on to the point where we can have a good debate; accept that we may disagree on certain things; but also respect the fact that our opinions are sincerely held – and that we may modify them in the course and process of the argument.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nate</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 6:58 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">1. It would be difficult to explain those reasons that you don’t approve of without acknowledging the possibility of anti-semitism. Why else would people be resorting to such tenuous excuses to single out the world’s only Jewish State? If you don’t agree with those reasons, or believe they are weak, you must agree that they may be providing cover to a more nefarious but unacceptable motive. Otherwise all of these justifications would never arise and never be necessary.<br />
2. To approve of Israel being singled out because of its own high standards is to simply find another reason to single Israel out, since most countries claim to have high standards and are not then singled out.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 6:59 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><i>And another unreasonable one, dominated be Peter and Dcook and Michael Rabins and Barad and… well, a lot of people.</i></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">All the people whose comprehensive deconstruction of your ignorant arguments you have consistently ducked.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">On the other one, you can have your ego massaged by people who think that being called ‘reasonable’ by the likes of you is more important than the truth.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 7:01 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Oh, and I have no problem condemning some aspects of Palestinian society at large, provided I can enter some hefty caveats. For instance, I saw a swastika painted in a prominent place in Bethlehem once; a few weeks later it was still there. Any town where that happens clearly has problems. I also loathe the treatment of women in Arab culture in general; but of course the main victims are Arabs, and not every Arab man is to blame. So you see, I’ll go much further than, say, your average Guardianista in these things. But I also think directing all my criticism at a people that’s labouring under a heavy burden of oppression would be tasteless at best.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 7:05 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">By the way I was joking about being 74. Actually I’m 12.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Brownie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 7:09 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><i>Personally, I’m happy to agree with you where I agree, and disagree where I don’t. But in general, and whatever the temptations, do work a little on your tone.</i></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Danny, at the risk of being admonished for my tone, you’re taking the piss, right? Work on his tone? Go re-read the threads on Matt’s last couple of posts. Is there something he hasn’t been accused of, because I’ve missed it if there is. And when commenters aren’t, disracefully, outright accusing Matt of something, they are insinuating it.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">His posts are given the most uncharitable readings possible – see above for “There’s no blaming the Zionists for this one” and what I’d have to say is the deliberate misconstruing of that aside.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt has been more tolerant of his debaters than most had any right to expect given the manner in which they tried (pretended to try) to engage with his posts.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">There’s about a half-dozen regular(ish) commenters on this thread who need to examine their own tones before Matt needs to even think about reciprocating. The enquiry into his personal life – not to mention being offered out by that buffoon Barad – has shamed this blog.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nate</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 7:14 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">It’s not tasteless, it’s crucial to understanding the situation, the chronology, the history. It is this very anti-semitism, this very culture of martyrdom and honor and terror, this very supremacism and this maximalism and this hatred and indoctrination, that has brought on and perpetuated their own “oppression”, preferring to continue this “oppression” (in which many people live rather well) than accept compromise. I’ll quote Abbas on this one, with regard to how bad the “oppression” is: I will wait for Hamas to accept international commitments. I will wait for Israel to freeze settlements. Until then, in the West Bank we have a good reality… the people are living a normal life.<br />
As for the point of your post, it seemed to imply some anger at America while extolling the virtues of UNESCO. Anyone who knows the history of anti-Israel bias in the UN and more specifically at UNESCO, would understand why this sentiment seemed a little wrong-headed and neglectful of the much more important aspects of what you touch upon.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 7:17 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Brownie,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Thanks. I do feel a lot of people are trying to find some reason to be offended, and that I reply quite calmly 95% of the time.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">But I suppose it’s true that, if you’re going to blog at all, especially on this issue, you should just train yourself to ignore the flak and respond like an automoton. In other words, as the author I have a higher standard to meet; some people are always going to be utter wankers.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I’m just disappointed, because, as I think I’ve shown, I really am prepared to debate anyone about anything. That’s why I’m here.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 7:59 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Nate,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Sorry, on the idea that it’s Palestinian society to blame for the lack of peace, I can’t agree. You expect a population of relatively poor, relatively uneducated people – most of whom know nothing but occupation – to show all the flexibility and subtlety of a diplomat, being willing to make various concessions, showing readiness to forgive various crimes and insults? I don’t believe in what Bertrand Russell lampooned as the ’superior virtue of the oppressed’, but neither do I think the onus is on an occupied people to show the occupier that IT is ready to make all the running as part of an historic compromise.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Look, you’re an 18 year old Palestinian in Hebron. The only Israelis you see are settlers who try to humiliate you with the protection of soldiers armed to the teeth. You have a sense that your whole life is controlled by this occupation and its officials – you can be kept waiting at a roadblock all day for no reason, your uncle had his lands confiscated for ’security’ reasons, your sister has been humiliated by IDF soldiers making lewd comments at a check point – and, what’s more, what little you know of the politics of the situation is that the whole world, except nasty America, is on your side; that the whole world says Israel must clear out of East Jerusalem, retreat to the 1967 lines, allow your relatives to return from Lebanon, and so on.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">How likely is it, in these circumstances, that the 18 year old will be ready with a list of concessions that go beyond what the 15 judges at the ICJ unanimously declared was her right? Don’t forget, most people don’t spend half the day arguing on politics blogs, thrashing out all these issues. They think about politics viscerally.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">So I don’t buy this idea that the fault is with ‘Palestinian society’. In fact, I think that’s just absurd. How can we sit here complacently blaming the victims (to coin a phrase) for their predicament, when we dont know a fraction of what it means to live as they do? I think that would be disgusting, frankly. (I’m not saying you are disgusting.)</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I don’t think the average Israeli can be blamed for the fact that the vast majority of Palestinians fled in 1948, before he or she was even born. That’s why I dont support the right of return. But neither do I think the Palestinians can be blamed for what happened in 1967* before most of them were even born, or for what happened at Kharthoum, or in 1973. And just because Arafat was recalcitrant in the past*, it doesn’t mean the Palestinians should be penalised forever.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Look, both sides want peace – on their own terms. The question of whose terms are more reasonable is another debate. Annapolis showed that the two sides are converging. It will happen, one day.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">* Both the reasons for the 1967 war and for the breakdown of Camp David were more complex than many supporters of Israel will allow, btw.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Penny</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:05 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">“Thanks. I do feel a lot of people are trying to find some reason to be offended, and that I reply quite calmly 95% of the time.”</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt – with respect, this – and similar – statements are a tad ego-centric in my view.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Tracking back to an earlier comment in which you ask why people weren’t stepping in to defend you: perhaps because this thread is 24hrs old and may have run its course. People may have moved on from it, might pick up the last few comments but not the whole thread, might be busy elsewhere or away from their desks. There are many reasons other than that which you apparently assumed to be true</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Why are you getting a less-than-agreeable response? Is it all ‘everyone else – on every occasion’, or is it possible that you are touching a nerve that you are unable to see, identify with or have an understanding of?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">On the one hand you say that your intention is to stir the pot a little in order to provoke a debate – which is fine, but if you want to genuinely understand dissenting points of view then why not ask them why their reaction is sometimes hostile? Why assume that they’re the type of people who look to be offended and/or declare some to be ‘wankers’.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:21 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Penny,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Your comment reminds me of a point often made against Israel. If everyone’s criticising you, at some point you may have to admit you’ve done something wrong.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Well, I’m sure there are all kinds of ways in which I could have conducted myself better, been a better and clearer writer, and so on. But I’m sorry, i wanted to have a discussion about Hisham’s Palace, UNESCO, etc, and for the third time at this site Ive ended up having to defend every single thing every Palestinian has done, ever. There was some really interesting discussion earlier about Islamic art and it just got drowned out by crap.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">And, sorry, while I think your contribution has been reasonable, i don’t think the response to his thread has been less than agreeable. I think it’s ranged from silly to disgusting. And the fact that the only criticism you have of what’s happened on this thread is about my ego – well, I think you should know better.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:23 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><i>And another unreasonable one, dominated be Peter and Dcook and Michael Rabins and Barad and… well, a lot of people.</i></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Count the posts and you’d find the dominant, persistent poster is you.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:25 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Your silky prose and friendly manner obliges me to question why it is I distrust you so much. I guess it comes to this…</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">You morally infantilise the Palestinians by excusing them from any moral standards (by the same token I guess you’d have justified necklace killings in South Africa?). Tell me, by the same token why don’t you excuse Jews from moral censure – you know, holocaust, terror, anti-semitism…? BUt the reverse is true: from israel you expect moral ubermenschen. This is a very strange inversion.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">You naively refuse to recognise the driving narrative in Pal history, which seems to me pretty emphatically requires the end of the Jewish state. Forget Nusseibeh, check out what they teach in nursery school. And primary school. And senior school. And everywhere else in that God-forsaken land. And out there, even more malevolently, throughout the Arab and Muslim world.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Your reading list (Chomsky, Finkelstein, Pappe and every other stinking Israel-hater). I’m sorry, but I just can’t get past this. Next you’ll be telling me that Atzmon does a cool line in ironic humour and we shouldn’t judge him too harshly.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">OK maybe you believe you’re a friend of the Jews and Israel. BUt you aren’t.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">NIne miles. Think about it.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:26 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><i>Why are you getting a less-than-agreeable response? Is it all ‘everyone else – on every occasion’, or is it possible that you are touching a nerve that you are unable to see, identify with or have an understanding of?</i></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><b>Infamy! Infamy! They’ve got it in for me!</b></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Voted best line from a Carry On film. How apt!</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nate</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:27 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">And there you have it! Those Israeli soldiers! Those humiliating settlers! They’re all so evil! And those poor innocent Palestinians! They’re not taught to hate by their media, mosques and government. They’re taught to hate by the evil Israelis. That’s why an 18-year-old in Hebron who supposedly only wants to live a life free of “humiliation” won’t give up the right of return for people he’s never met and who haven’t been through what he has. Roadblocks, land confiscations, checkpoints. They’re all there to humiliate this boy from Hebron who knows nothing (as you seem to) of the terrorism they are there to stop. The terrorism that goes on to this day. The terrorism that predated them. The terrorism, that despite this boy being unable to contextualize, he will still somehow manage to celebrate along with the rest of his society. And again, I think there is nothing wrong with blaming victims who created and perpetuate their own victimhood. If you have a problem with that you will forever be defending whatever side happens to be weaker without any consideration for context, history, or accountability. Until this last post, I actually did think you were simply misguided in your attempt to protect Israel, but you clearly have no sense of what has brought us to this point, what aspects of Palestinian society have perpetuated the problem, and of the fact that even victims have choices. As for the poverty/uneducated fallacy, what is it that has stopped the Palestinians from developing a society that is civil and successful? And if they’re so uneducated, who’s going to all of those universities of theirs? And if they’re so poor, where is all the money that makes them the greatest recipients of foreign aid in the world end up? None of these things can be blamed on Israel, and you shouldn’t be giving cover to their scapegoating. And I don’t know how accepting the idea of your enemies existence – in the name of peace – requires the subtlty of a diplomat. Keep in mind that the entire Arab (and pro-Palestinian) world, subscribes to these very same attitudes. Are they also subject to poverty and lack of education? Or is that excuse only good for the West Bank, where people have apparently no responsibility for their own actions and hatreds.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:29 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I’m with Brownie all the way. The way a respectful poster has been treated here is rather shameful. You do Israel no favours.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Penny</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:29 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">“And the fact that the only criticism you have of what’s happened on this thread is about my ego – well, I think you should know better.”</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt – please. If you can only see my comment through a prism of ’self’, then that really isn’t my fault.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nate</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:31 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">And I don’t hold Palestinians responsible for Arafat’s actions. It is you who always puts the blame on leadership rather than the society. I hold them responsible for their proven persistent attitudes which seem no more moderate than those of that Godfather of terror himself.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:33 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Michael rabins -</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I don’t think it makes that much sense to censure a whole people. Governments, sure; and strains within different cultures, sure; but a whole people? I guess I’m enough of a humanist to believe that most people will act broadly similarly in most situations. So if you subjected Jews to the same conditions as the Palestinians, they would behave quite similarly. Same with British or German or Papuan people. So Im not in the business of blaming whole populations – and I haven’t blamed ‘the Jews’ for anything either. I’m afraid that was another hallucination.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">You seem stuck on the fact I read those three authors. They’re not really my cup of tea – I consider myself centre-left, whereas theyre hard left – but I don’t think they’re as bad as you say either. Have you read them?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Have a look at my blog for various book recommendations. You’ll find most of my lodestars are liberal Jews.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:36 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Vildechaye</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">So you agree that Palestinians do not have any moral responsibility? Or that pretty much everything is Israel’s fault? That Finkelstein and Pappe are factually persuasive (if stylistically laboured)?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I award you 10 Brownie points.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:38 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Penny,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I’m not seeing your comment through a ‘prism of self’, whatever that means. I’m saying lots of people said lots of stupid things here, but the only person you’ve criticised is me.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:39 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Michael Rabins,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I have said none of those three things.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:39 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">And consider this: Most “reasonable” anti-”Zionist” posters eventually reveal their true selves as nasty pieces of work. I can remember an exchange I had with that prick Jonathan Cook that illustrates that perfectly. I have had several similar exchanges with other supposed reasonable lefty anti-Zionists over at Terry Glavin’s blog. Without fail, if the argument goes on for too long, they reveal themselves as the nasty, bitter and twisted anti-Israel obsessives that they truly are. Matt Hill has hung in there, stayed reasonable, and even agreed with many points. True, his reading habits — Chomsky, Pappe and especially that loathesome maniac Finklestein — leave much to be desired, but hopefully he’ll come around. I don’t think having sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians should automatically mean anti-Israel obsessive, even if they are — as I believe — the authors of their own misfortune. I also think that, given the fact he lives in Israel half the time and his parents live there, that he has as much right to his opinion on Israel-Palestine as anybody here. I think AngryPeter et al will only be happy (if that is indeed possible at all) when this place turns into an echo chamber, the same way that lefty and right-wing blogs are.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:41 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">RE: So you agree that Palestinians do not have any moral responsibility? Or that pretty much everything is Israel’s fault? That Finkelstein and Pappe are factually persuasive (if stylistically laboured)?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">No. I don’t agree with any of that, and frankly, I have no idea how you could have come up with any of those points based on what I wrote. Your accusations say much more about your state of mind and your way of looking at things than they do about my opinions on IP, which I have made rather clear in post after post over the past 3 years.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:44 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Vildechaye,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I think those points were a parody of my views.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Michael Rabins,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I don’t think vildechaye is saying he agrees with all my views, just that I have a right to express them without being attacked.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:45 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Penny: You talk about his ego, and then we he defends himself against that, you say that he “views your comment through a prism of self”? How else is that sort of critique supposed to be viewed? That is extremely unfair, not to mention ridiculous.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:45 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Do please watch this report – I think the creator is a 19 year old from Hebron rather than an 18 year old – but it still seems relevant …</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><a href="http://lensforchange.weebly.com/video-clashes-in-hebron.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://lensforchange.weebly.com/video-clashes-in-hebron.html</a></div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:50 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Re. My reading habits. Again, I’ve posted at my blog about my favourite books on this topic, as well as others I’ve read lately. I’ve failed to finish a Chomsky book; I gave Pappe a mixed review and called him out on his monochrome view of Israel; and I’ve publicly criticised finkelstein. I’m sorry I don’t hate these people as much as everyone here does, but this is just a difference of opinion.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">A lot of people have questioned my maturity; isn’t the ability to disagree with others while respecting them supposed to be a sign of maturity?</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:51 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><i>I think AngryPeter et al will only be happy (if that is indeed possible at all) when this place turns into an echo chamber</i></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Sadly, you have been seduced by Hill’s smooth and superior manner, and are unable to see that he has revealed himself to be just the person you describe further above. Read his blog, if the threads here aren’t enough: phrases like the ‘regime’ in Israel, Israel’s ‘crimes’ etc run through it like Brighton rock. He automatically sees Israel as the villain. DCook, Barad, Rabins and I and a few others are able to see this. The fact that you can’t is a reflection on you, not on us.<br />
Oh, and your infantile label for me is a reflection on you, too.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:52 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Why the hell shouldn’t your views be attacked?????</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Vildechaye</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Those were not a parody, but a pretty accurate summary of Matt’s views. I know you don’t think that. BUt he does. So why defend him? OK maybe some comments are a little rude, but ffs…..?</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:54 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">My views should be attacked; I, myself, shouldn’t be attacked. Do you understand the difference?</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:56 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><i>You were also wrong when you said I haven’t been to London lately if I don’t think it’s been taken over by foreigners. Now that IS racist, and I don’t mind saying so. In fact, it slightly disgusts me, since my girlfriend – with whom I live, in London, you ignorant racist fucking cunt – is of Indian descent.</i></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I suppose this is an example of Hill’s so-called maturity. What a surprise.<br />
Hill is nothing but another cookie-cutter leftist airhead. To him, a Brit commenting on mass-immigration to this country is always a ‘racist’: no analysis, no thinking, just kneejerk, mindless, slogan-waving abuse.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:56 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">The difference is between saying: ‘I strongly disagree with your opinion, I think it’s wrong, ignorant, unfair, biased, etc’ and saying ‘you are a racist, where do you live so I can come hit you, you are lying, etc’.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nate</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:57 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">“most people will act broadly similarly in most situations”<br />
So culture? The education system? Media? Religion? Nothing has any effect and we’re all exactly the same no matter what we’ve been taught? Kumbaya, Matt.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:58 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">That’s why I said broadly, not exactly.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:59 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt I really do not believe that I have attacked you personally.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">When I said you force-fed your girlfriend gefilte fish, I was kidding. Should have flagged that up. Sorry.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:59 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">… err, and you did call Barad a cunt.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:06 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I made an exception for Barad because he explicitly expressed racist views which I think cross a very serious line. I’m sorry, when he says London has been taken over by foreigners, he means brown people. People like the one I live with, whom I love. So, yes, he was being a cunt.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">But when he offered to fight me, I offered to buy him a pint.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:10 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt, I got news for you – most of the UK thinks that London’s been taken over by foreigners, and statistically they may well be right.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I fear you are too worthy for this world.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:12 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">You subjected me to a long, tedious, highly personal and deeply insidious inquisition about whether I’m an anti-Semite. I think that was unnecessary. However you’ve shown signs of being more reasonable since, and I can understand some Jewish people bing extremely paranoid, given thir history, so ultimately I think you’re all right. Just wit until I say something seriously antisemitic before more of that kind of thing, please.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Penny</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:12 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">It actually wasn’t a criticism – at least, not from my perspective.<br />
It was intended to be helpful!</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Look – we all react differently to comments, especially on blogs where they are – for the most part – more direct than is sometimes warranted. Still, that appears to be the nature of the blogosphere. I’ve had a few bizarre names, accusations and plain hatred hurled in my direction on some blogs.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">The point of my comment here was to take the initial premise stated in your first post; which centres on your wanting to debate an issue you realise is polemic. I’d support that premise. I’d be interested in joining such a debate but it’s obviously not going as well as could be hoped.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I don’t agree with every comment here, Matt, but my not responding to them is only one of logistics: I’ve been unable to access my laptop on and off all day due to problems with the provider. Still, there are a few themes amongst the more polite responses that I’ve noticed in this and your other articles and which I think, if they were addressed, would lead to that debate you’re seeking. Mettaculture, has, I believe, tried to point this out in a very reasoned and intelligent comment on a past thread.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">So what I’m asking is this: might you have overlooked these themes and, as a result, what you’re receiving now by way of responses may – in some cases (but not all) be down to frustration rather than the output of just ‘wankers’?!!</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:16 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Penny,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">If you have some suggestions about the kind of things I should address in future posts, I’d be grateful.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Penny</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:24 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Penny: You talk about his ego, and then we he defends himself against that, you say that he “views your comment through a prism of self”? How else is that sort of critique supposed to be viewed? That is extremely unfair, not to mention ridiculous</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">You’ve misunderstood my point, Vildechaye. I didn’t talk about Matt’s ‘ego’; I spoke of ego-centrism, which isn’t the same thing. Look – I’m hardly the most aggressive person to grace Harry’s Place and I’ve not suddenly flipped into attack mode. I’m actually trying to be helpful!</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I think Matt is missing a few themes – that is all. I think he wants a debate but it’s travelling in the wrong direction and it isn’t simply because some are wankers. I think if he stops seeing it from a defensive position – which Matt himself has said he has a tendency to do – then he might see if there are nuances he’s missing. This is what I meant through ‘ego-centrism’ and ‘prism of self’. It was not an attack on Matt, the person.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:35 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><blockquote style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #fcfbf9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; border-bottom-color: rgb(222, 213, 190); border-bottom-style: double; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(230, 224, 207); border-left-style: double; border-left-width: 1px; border-right-color: rgb(230, 224, 207); border-right-style: double; border-right-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(244, 241, 233); border-top-style: double; border-top-width: 1px; font-size: 11px; margin-left: 0em; margin-right: 0.5em; padding-left: 1.5em; padding-right: 1.5em;"><div style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">When I said you force-fed your girlfriend gefilte fish, I was kidding.</div></blockquote><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I would not object – I actually quite like gefilte fish and horseradish.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I also go for jellied eels.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:36 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I’m quite partial to marmite and peanut butter sandwiches too.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:38 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Not that I can get Marmite in Egypt. I’ve looked.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:41 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Sorry, my mind is wandering…</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:42 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Abu!</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Very good to hear from you. How are gefilte fish supplies in Alexandria? My spies tell me not so good.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:50 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><i>Until this last post, I actually did think you were simply misguided in your attempt to protect Israel, but you clearly have no sense of what has brought us to this point, what aspects of Palestinian society have perpetuated the problem, and of the fact that even victims have choices</i></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Nate makes the essence of the criticism of Matt. There is so much he just doesn’t know. His error on Res 242 was quite unbelievable for a supposed commentator on I/P situation. I can’t say “history” because he doesn’t seem to refer to it. He speaks of a Palestinian longing “for a long time” for the right to Jerusalem as its capital (on another thread) without establishing what a “long time means” and without recognising that the Arabs now called “Palestinians” weren’t identified as an organised and political bloc until after the 1967 war (and yes I DO know about Arab Nationalism, Al Husseini and the Arab Uprising in Palestine).</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">With such a poor grasp of history its no wonder that his comments get more abusive as the thread develops. Somehow he thought he would dazzle but he’s a damp squib.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Sorry to be so snarky but Matt has set himself up to be overwhelmed by an audience with a better grasp than he has. A simple “Palestinians are crap at maintaining a site of antiquity” was all it needed. We could have said “Yes, how observant you are. Thanks for pointing it out”</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">We could have all gone home with “See, the Palestinians are self-inflicters of their own downfall” and within 20 responses it could have been dusted.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:52 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">RE: But why defend him?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">a) because his views are reasonably put, even though I don’t agree with them.<br />
b) Voltaire.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:54 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">RE: I think the creator is a 19 year old from Hebron rather than an 18 year old</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">As Woody Allen once remarked: “Sometimes a boy of 18 will look 19, whereas sometimes a boy of 19 will look 18, that’s the way it is with a true Spaniard” (substitute Palestinian)</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:57 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><i>A lot of people have questioned my maturity; isn’t the ability to disagree with others while respecting them supposed to be a sign of maturity?</i></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Its one of those gotchas! If you have to ask what “maturity” means/is then its most likely you haven’t attained it yet. Start with age and experience and work from that perspective and you might find it. BTW, its not growing a moustache, either. Any kid can do bum-fluff!</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:59 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Abu Faris: My brother-in-law also eats Marmite and Peanut Butter, a combination I can’t understand. I learned to love Marmite in my late 30s when I married a Marmite-lover. But with Peanut Butter??? Oh well, chaque a son gout, as the French say.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 10:04 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><i>If you have some suggestions about the kind of things I should address in future posts, I’d be grateful.</i></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt, how about a feature on some of these:-</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">“The Roadmap To Peace”</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">“The moral rights of Israel in Operation Cast Lead”</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">“Arab/Palestinian Antisemitism and its role in the I/P conflict”</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">“A Palestinian State must not be an apartheid, ethnic-cleansed one (of Jews”</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">“Not all settlement building is illegal”</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I figure that if you can address those then you will become better educated about the I/P conflict.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 10:09 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><i>I learned to love Marmite in my late 30s when I married a Marmite-lover</i></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Ahhh! What some people will do for Love! Do you dip or squeeze? I can’t stand the buttery knife put into a pot of marmite, which I hate anyway. Marmite is one of the stickiest substances known to man. If I get it on my fingers or hand while making sandwiches for my kids I freak out!</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Israelinurse</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 10:15 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt Hill – since you asked…</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I don’t know for how many years you have been visiting Israel, but I’m sure you know there was a time when it was possible for Israelis and Palestinians alike to travel around all areas. In those days I used to go often to Jericho, Gaza, Bethlehem and many other places I can’t set foot in today.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">All that changed on 9/12/87 and of course became even more problematic with the second Intifada. As it happens, I was in Beit Sahour on the day the first Intifada began. I was nearly killed that day by a rock-throwing mob which ambushed my car – simply because it had an Israeli number plate.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">There have been well over 2,700 rock-throwing incidents at Israeli vehicles since January of this year, at least one of which resulted in the deaths of a father and his infant son, so how you can declare with such confidence that an Israeli would not be lynched in Jericho is a bit of a mystery to me.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">The Israeli government’s ban on its civilians entering areas A&B came about precisely due to many instances in which Israelis were murdered as they went to Palestinian towns to get their cars fixed or buy produce.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">I’m also not clear about why you think an Israeli who is not a ’settler’ would be safe in Jericho (2:46). That would suggest that you think that all ’settlers’ are visibly identifiable. Perhaps you should try meeting some and discover that they actually look and speak like anyone else.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Perhaps you should also consider the fact that the rock or Molotov cocktail-throwing terrorist does not pause to ask for his victim’s postcode before committing his act because to him it actually doesn’t matter – all Israelis are ’settlers’ in his eyes.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">It’s one thing visiting the Middle East as a tourist, even for extended periods of time. It’s quite another when you understand that you, and your children, are a target for terrorists simply because of your belonging to a certain ethnic group and there is nothing you can do about it. You can live inside the ‘green line’, you can join ‘Peace Now’, support the peace process and vote Meretz, but you will still be a target for a suicide bomber or Hamas/Hizbollah rocket simply because you are what you are.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">It’s also very easy to blame everything on ‘the occupation’, but until you grasp the basic fact that, unlike its enemies, nothing that Israel does is rooted in the ideology of ridding the region of a specific ethnicity, then you will also not understand the destruction of Jewish archaeological sites as part of that process.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Penny</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 10:19 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Ah, but can you take your Marmite neat?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">When my son was a toddler he began being sick at least once a day. He was duly hiked off to the docs who couldn’t find that much wrong with him. Still the problem persisted. Until my sister caught him rather cleverly surveying the terrain (for a baby, anyway) and, when he thought all was clear, darting to the cupboard and literally scooping Marmite out of the jar and into his mouth. The high salt content was causing him to be sick within a minute or two.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">He’s still a Marmite addict, albeit with more moderation than his infant self.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 10:57 pm</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Israelinurse,<br />
Superb as always.<br />
This for me encapsulates where Matt is profoundly ignorant (to give him the benefit of the doubt) about the whole issue:<br />
<i>That would suggest that you think that all ’settlers’ are visibly identifiable. Perhaps you should try meeting some and discover that they actually look and speak like anyone else. </i><br />
For Matt, ’settlers’ are these demonic figures with cloven hooves and yellow fangs. Even if they are Jews who live where Jews have lived for thousands of years, e.g. Hebron, to him they are not ordinary human beings but “Evil, I tell you, evil!”. They are bad Jews; not like the good as-a-Jews who scream ignorant slogans about ‘illegal settlements’ and ‘illegal occupation’ and would, therefore, be perfectly safe in Jericho. (I remember visiting Hisham’s Palace in 1980, I think; just me and my girlfriend in a rented car.) He sees the conflict as a morality play, and has decided which side of it the ‘Zionists’ inhabit.<br />
That is why he cannot understand this:<br />
<i>It’s also very easy to blame everything on ‘the occupation’, but until you grasp the basic fact that, unlike its enemies, nothing that Israel does is rooted in the ideology of ridding the region of a specific ethnicity, then you will also not understand the destruction of Jewish archaeological sites as part of that process.</i></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Thank you.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Hanoi Paris Hilton</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 23 November 2011, 1:35 am</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">“some Jewish people bing…”</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">That sounds pretty antisemitic already to me.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Oh, and mighty heroic of you to force yerself to read Dubya’s book. How was it?</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 23 November 2011, 4:53 am</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Hanoi Paris Hilton,</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Some Jewish people are brilliant writers.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Some Arab men hold sexist views about women.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Some Arabs take notions of honour and shame very seriously.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">And some Jewish people are paranoid about persecution.</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">If these are racist views, then my name’s Max Singer:<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaPBhxXhprg" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaPBhxXhprg</a></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">As for Bush’s book, it was so bad I could almost believe he wrote it.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Alan S</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 23 November 2011, 5:47 am</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Matt, how old are your parents?</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #f4f1e9; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; height: 20px;"><div class="commentcbl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-bl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentcbr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-br.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div></div><div class="comment" style="font-size: 13px; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 20px;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 23 November 2011, 6:53 am</td></tr>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
</tbody></table></td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 23 November 2011, 8:10 am</td></tr>
</tbody></table><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; color: #303030; font-family: Georgia, Palatino, 'Book Antiqua', 'Times New Roman', serif; height: 20px;"><div class="commentctl" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tl.gif); background-origin: initial; float: left; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div><div class="commentctr" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-image: url(http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-tr.gif); background-origin: initial; float: right; height: 20px; width: 20px;"></div></div><div class="commentbody" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; color: #303030; font-family: Georgia, Palatino, 'Book Antiqua', 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 0px;"><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;"><i>And some Jewish people are paranoid about persecution</i></div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Yes, because persecution simply doesn’t exist, does it? :(</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Ask the families of 6m Jews slaughtered in Europe, 800,000 who fled Arab countries. The many who fled Russia, the wars against Jews by Arabs. The Hamas charter, The Protocols, the antisemitism. Its stupid of Jews to feel paranoia about persecution where its obvious that there is no persecution of Jews. Doh!</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">Do you intend to make a career based on naive stupidity or do you hope to reach maturity some day?</div><div style="letter-spacing: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;">If you want a great laugh share this with your girlfriend.</div></div><div class="commentbubble" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: white; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; color: #303030; font-family: Georgia, Palatino, 'Book Antiqua', 'Times New Roman', serif; height: 20px;"></div></div>levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-7897127337840968232011-11-22T14:52:00.001+00:002011-11-24T22:23:15.799+00:00Harry's Place guest upsets his hostsI've grabbed this guest post from <i><a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2011/11/21/unesco-the-west-bank-and-the-tree-of-life/">Harry's Place</a></i> together with the comments so far because, of necessity, HP deletes its comments after about a week or so and they are too informative (about HP) to let go:<br />
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<a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2011/11/21/unesco-the-west-bank-and-the-tree-of-life/" rel="bookmark" style="color: #444444; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 5px; text-decoration: none;" title="UNESCO, the West Bank and the Tree of Life">UNESCO, the West Bank and the Tree of Life</a></h2>
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<span class="author" style="font-weight: bold;">Guest Post</span>, November 21st 2011, 5:01 pm</div>
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<em>This is a guest post by <a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></em></div>
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Since <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNESCO" style="color: #d70606;">UNESCO</a> made the ’state’ of Palestine its <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_UNESCO" style="color: #d70606;">194th member</a> last month, press coverage has focussed on the move’s <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/nov/01/obama-palestine-unesco-membership%3Fnewsfeed%3Dtrue" style="color: #d70606;">political implications</a>. The UN culture agency may be feeling a little <a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/worldview/unesco-facing-dire-funding-shortfall-puts-out-the-begging-bowl/article2239396/%3Futm_medium%3DFeeds%253A%2520RSS%252FAtom%26utm_source%3DWorld%26utm_content%3D2239396" style="color: #d70606;">cash-strapped</a> right now – a US law automatically defunds any international body that admits Palestine – but it will want to prove the decision was more than a diplomatic stunt. And I have just the job for that purpose.<br />
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Down at the <a href="http://geology.com/below-sea-level/" style="color: #d70606;">bottom of the world</a>, just outside the West Bank town of<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho" style="color: #d70606;">Jericho</a>, lies an early Muslim archeological wonder. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hisham%27s_Palace" style="color: #d70606;">Hisham’s Palace</a> was an 8th century <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad" style="color: #d70606;">Umayyad</a> ruler’s winter retreat until an earthquake destroyed it. Its stunning ruins contain the exquisite <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/39631091@N03/5497134201/" style="color: #d70606;">‘Tree of Life’ mosaic</a>, a mysterious depiction of a lion attacking a deer under a mythical tree – making it a priceless rarity in representation-averse Islamic art.</div>
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And it’s covered in shit.When I visited the site this summer, it had plainly been subject to years of disregard. The <a href="http://globalheritagefund.org/" style="color: #d70606;">Global Heritage Fund</a> has <a href="http://globalheritagefund.org/index.php/what_we_do/sites_on_the_verge/" style="color: #d70606;">listed</a> it as one of twelve historic treasures that, if we don’t act now, we’re in danger of losing forever. It’s precisely such emergencies that make UNESCO too important for US political subterfuge.</div>
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The seeming absence of management means anyone could stroll in and help themselves to a serving of ancient palace. Though this makes for an exciting visit – you can wander amongst toppled pillars and arches, running your fingers along the weathered sandstone – it’s not just tourists who enjoy such easy access. Among other signs of damage to the complex, the celebrated mosaic is thickly caked in avian effluent.</div>
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Unlike some of Palestine’s other historical treasures – like the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs" style="color: #d70606;">Cave of the Patriarchs</a> at Hebron, not to mention the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haram_al-Sharif" style="color: #d70606;">Haram al-Sharif</a> in Jerusalem – Hisham’s Palace is in West Bank <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_A" style="color: #d70606;">Area A</a>, which, in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_accords" style="color: #d70606;">Oslo</a>-speak, means it’s under Palestinian jurisdiction. In other words its scandalous state (imagine leaving a Rembrandt out for a few hours in Trafalgar Square) is entirely the fault of the Palestinian Authority. There’s no blaming the Zionists for this one.</div>
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The PA’s deplorable neglect of Hisham’s Palace could, sadly, stand as a metaphor for its leadership of the Palestinian people. Since it was formed in 1994 – to oversee and legitimise Israel’s occupation, many <a href="http://www.jkcook.net/Articles3/0546.htm" style="color: #d70606;">argue</a> – it’s become a global <a href="http://www.phrmg.org/Corruption%2520in%2520the%2520Palestinian%2520Authority.htm" style="color: #d70606;">byword for corruption</a>. In the fat years after Oslo, it allowed countless millions – donated by the international community to a<a href="http://www.unrwa.org/etemplate.php%3Fid%3D253" style="color: #d70606;">half-refugee</a> population – to be pocketed by <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/feb/06/israel" style="color: #d70606;">shameless officials</a>. The roads into major West Bank towns are flagrantly vulgarised by the mansions of middling bureaucrats and ’security contractors’, parasites on human misery.</div>
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Even those who think the occupation is a necessary evil can see the suffering it causes. But let nobody deny the role of the Palestinians’ own leaders in compounding it.</div>
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Fittingly, some believe the ‘Tree of Life’ tableau symbolises good and bad government. The Palestinians have had plenty of the latter, but UNESCO can play a small part in undoing its damage by restoring the mosaic to its former magnificence.</div>
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What’s more, the deed would carry its own quiet symbolism: of a world uniting to help a nation rise up out of its ruins.</div>
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<span class="smallallcaps bold" style="font-size: 10px; font-weight: 700; text-transform: uppercase;">KEYWORDS:</span> <a href="http://hurryupharry.org/category/palestinians/" rel="category tag" style="color: #d70606;" title="View all posts in Palestinians">Palestinians</a>.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:13 pm</td></tr>
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Its stunning ruins contain the exquisite ‘Tree of Life’ mosaic, a mysterious depiction of a lion attacking a deer under a mythical tree – making it a priceless rarity in representation-averse Islamic art.</div>
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Well, sort of – unless you take into account the meadows, date palms, streams running by classical villas all depicted on the mosaics of the similarly old and Umayyad Great Mosque in Damascus. Then there are the equally aged if more abstract mosaics of the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, itself an Umayyid construction.</div>
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All laboured over by a mostly Christian community of craftsmen who communicated onto the walls, ceilings and domes of the buildings for their new, Umayyad Muslim masters in a language they knew best.</div>
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Islamic puritan tendencies in the visual arts were always there, but became dominant later. These marvelous Umayyad structures attest to that which was later set aside.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:17 pm</td></tr>
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What makes Hisham’s Palace special is that its mosaics occur in a non-religious setting. They as much illustrate a continuity between the style of the late Hellenistic country house of a Byzantine worthy and the pleasure palaces of early medieval Muslim Arab rulers in Syria.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:18 pm</td></tr>
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I salute your evidently superior knowledge – but I didn’t say it was unique, just rare. Interesting comment though, thanks.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lynne T</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:18 pm</td></tr>
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“There’s no blaming the Zionists for this one.”</div>
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What an ascription to use in the context of governance in the occupied territorities. “Zionists” and not the “Israeli government”.</div>
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For the record, the Israeli authorities are respectful of antiquities, whether Jewish, Christian, Muslim or whatever. Allegations from the Palestinians about Israel carrying on activities that endanger sites like the Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock have invariably been proven false.</div>
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What an asshole you are, Mattie, even when you are trying to prove you aren’t.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Barad</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:19 pm</td></tr>
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“Unlike some of Palestine’s other historical treasures – like the Cave of the Patriarchs at Hebron, not to mention the Haram al-Sharif in Jerusalem –”</div>
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I think you mean stolen Jewish historical sites.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #d70606;">Alan A</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:19 pm</td></tr>
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Matt</div>
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You say of the Palestinian Authority that it was established:</div>
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“– to oversee and legitimise Israel’s occupation, many argue –”</div>
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That links to Jonathan Cook’s website, which seems presently to be down. However the article can be read <a href="http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:pjOJtyhKYlAJ:www.jkcook.net/Articles3/0546.htm+http://www.jkcook.net/Articles3/0546.htm&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">here</a>.</div>
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Jonathan Cook is a <a href="http://hurryupharry.org/2011/09/28/jonathan-cook-i-have-no-idea-whether-atzmon-has-expressed-anti-semitic-views/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">supporter</a> of the antisemite campaigner, Gilad Atzmon, who is currently the subject of a campaign by Hope not Hate.</div>
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Look, I’m not sure what the purpose of this article is. Few people have any illusions at the incompetence and corruption of the Palestinian Authority. We confidently expect the PA to destroy as much architectural heritage as it can, particularly if it evidences Jewish life in the areas they control. So this isn’t a surprise.</div>
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But this is a basic problem with you, and your writing. Perhaps you think that, by being critical of the PA, you’re endearing yourself in some way to people who sympathy with Israelis, and establishing a reputation as a fair dealer.</div>
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If that’s what you’re hoping to do, then why reference a nut like Jonathan Cook at all? The only impression you create is that you’re the sort of person who reads people like Jonathan Cook, and that you have no idea of how toxic he is.</div>
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I’m not suggesting you amend this piece to that end. I just wonder whether you have any idea how hopeless you appear?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:20 pm</td></tr>
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If you wanted a real eye-opener, the archeology museum in Damascus had lots of mosaics from pre-Islamic times against which you could compare Umayyad mosaics. Spread across time, they are however strikingly both the products of the clearly same schools of artisanship and artistry at work in the region.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:21 pm</td></tr>
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Lynne T,</div>
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I was parodying the way Arabs often talk! Surely that’s obvious!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #d70606;">Alan A</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:22 pm</td></tr>
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Well don’t parody an ethnic group. That is considered quite racist and improper.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:27 pm</td></tr>
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Alan A,</div>
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I didn’t know Cook supports Atzmon. Yes, I sometimes read his stuff. I think he’s extreme, very extreme at times, though I’ve seen no evidence he’s an antisemite, at least not till you mentioned this.</div>
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It’s clear I wasnt necessarily endorsing this view, or I would have said ‘created to legitimise and oversee the occupation’. I do think it’s an arguable point, so I said ome argue it. Cook is very much the type who argues it. You’re working very hard to find something to be outraged about here.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:28 pm</td></tr>
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I had thought Matt was parodying a certain sort of anti-zionist, but with no racial implications.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #d70606;">Alan A</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:31 pm</td></tr>
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I just wonder why you’ve bothered with this piece. Why not run it on a website that focuses on Palestinian state building, instead?</div>
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If you think Cook is extreme, then why are you citing him at all? Isn’t this basically your problem. Your views are formed by reading all sorts of potty people with frothing attitudes, and then you read some Israeli liberals. You split the difference. As a result, your antennae and bearings are just a little bit messed up.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:32 pm</td></tr>
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Thanks for the compliment, Matt; but I think I cannot of been making myself clear.</div>
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My comment that “Islamic puritan tendencies in the visual arts were always there, but became dominant later.” This is a clue to what I am driving at.</div>
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You correctly identify the culprit:</div>
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[The Tree of Life mosaic's] scandalous state (imagine leaving a Rembrandt out for a few hours in Trafalgar Square) is entirely the fault of the Palestinian Authority.</div>
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Correctomundo.</div>
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However, you implicate the cause for this dereliction in the rampant corruption of the PA:</div>
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[The PA has] become a global byword for corruption. In the fat years after Oslo, it allowed countless millions – donated by the international community to a half-refugee population – to be pocketed by shameless officials.</div>
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But that is only half the story.</div>
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The other half involves the connivance of persuasive, popularist religious bigots, who have mounted an equally shameless campaign of cultural illiteracy and vandalism wrapped up in the big black flag of Islamist intolerance and conservative literalist dogma. These people do not neglect the monuments of the past because they cannot profit from them: no, they vandalise the monuments of the past and seek their destruction as a matter of zealous religious principle. This principle being the antithesis of Umayyad appreciation and love of nature – the pervasive puritan iconoclasm that has dominated Islam ever since.</div>
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One hand shakes the other, as they say.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #d70606;">Alan A</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:36 pm</td></tr>
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Although … it has become an interesting discussion on the aesthetic sentiments of the Umayyad caliphate so… uh…</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:36 pm</td></tr>
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Oh, sheesh, here we go again – yet another spittle-flecked, ignorant attack on Israel by the usual suspect.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Stan</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:40 pm</td></tr>
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From the post<br />
“There’s no blaming the Zionists for this one.”</div>
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Your just not being creative enough.</div>
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Stan</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:45 pm</td></tr>
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Hat Tip to Israelinurse</div>
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<i>You’re going to love this…</i></div>
<i></i><br />
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<i>UNESCO has made Syria a member of the committee on Human Rights.</i></div>
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<i><a href="http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/unesco-promotes-syria-human-rights-position_609183.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/unesco-promotes-syria-human-rights-position_609183.html</a></i></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:49 pm</td></tr>
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‘I just wonder why you’ve bothered with this piece. Why not run it on a website that focuses on Palestinian state building, instead?’</div>
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Because these are my views and Harry’s Place was good enough to host them. You seem to be suggesting only writers who share your opinions, or the opinions normally posted around here, should be hosted by Harry’s Place. Which is odd, considering the Orwell quote at the top of this page. If you disagree with something in it, say so. But I want to engage with readers at HP precisely because we often have different views. I think that can make for fruitful discussion. I’m sorry you don’t like my writing, Alan A, but I don’t think this is an antisemitic screed. In fact I’m mystified you’re so angry about it.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:53 pm</td></tr>
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Alan – I think Matt is wiling both to accept and engage with different points of view. I’m sure he would take on board any info about somone supporting Atzmon or whatever. My sense is that he didn’t just want to ‘preach to the converted’ at Lib Con, yet neither did he want to antagonise people here, gratuitously – just be contrarian.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Stan</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:54 pm</td></tr>
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Hi Matt,<br />
I for one, appreciate the piece. I would encourage you to try to post it on “pro-Palestian” websites.</div>
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Stan</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>M=o=r=g=y</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:55 pm</td></tr>
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Abu Faris, I could talk for hours on the subject of the Picatrix and al-Majriti.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:56 pm</td></tr>
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Alan A,</div>
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‘If you think Cook is extreme, then why are you citing him at all?’</div>
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I find he often challenges my liberal, centre-left assumptions, and forces me to refine my views in contradistinction to his. Again, I think it’s bizarre that you seem to believe we should only read writers we agree with. I recently read George Bush’s presidential memoirs, and I loathe the man.</div>
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‘Isn’t this basically your problem. Your views are formed by reading all sorts of potty people with frothing attitudes, and then you read some Israeli liberals. You split the difference. As a result, your antennae and bearings are just a little bit messed up.’</div>
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What do you know about what I read? If you’d like to know, instead of making unsubstantiated guesses, there are two places where I’ve publicly posted about books I’ve read on this topic.</div>
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These are my top five Israel-Palestine books:<a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/2011/10/my-five-top-books-about-israel.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/2011/10/my-five-top-books-about-israel.html</a></div>
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And I mention some of my recent books here:<a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/2011/11/middle-east-writing-and-reading.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/2011/11/middle-east-writing-and-reading.html</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.rosiebell.co.uk/" style="color: #d70606;">KB Player</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:57 pm</td></tr>
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I’ve seen the Umayyad mosque and wondered at those beautiful mosaics, which as Abu F says, represent natural forms. Shortly beforehand I’d been in the Topkapi Palace in Istanbul where the decoration is almost entirely abstract, and very gorgeous. Seeing representational art is quite a shock in an Islamic context.</div>
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The Umayyad mosque is one of the most beautiful buildings I’ve ever seen.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 5:57 pm</td></tr>
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<i>And it’s covered in shit.When I visited the site this summer, it had plainly been subject to years of disregard. The Global Heritage Fund has listed it as one of twelve historic treasures that, if we don’t act now, we’re in danger of losing forever. It’s precisely such emergencies that make UNESCO too important for US political subterfuge.</i></div>
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So, do we presume it ONLY became “covered in shit” as soon as the USA decided to defund UNESCO? Or, has it been like that for more than a few weeks while the USA WAS funding UNESCO.</div>
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Perhaps “covered in shit” is a euphimism for teh Palestinians concern about antiquities. They seem to have this nasty habit of destroying them, especially if it has anything to do with Jews.</div>
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<i>What an asshole you are, Mattie, even when you are trying to prove you aren’t</i></div>
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Says Lynne T as a preview to what Alan A at 5:19 pm in many more words and so well argued.</div>
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<i>I didn’t know Cook supports Atzmon. Yes, I sometimes read his stuff. I think he’s extreme, very extreme at times, though I’ve seen no evidence he’s an antisemite, at least not till you mentioned this.</i></div>
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Doh!!!!</div>
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Then you confirmed it. :)</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:02 pm</td></tr>
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Stan,</div>
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Thanks. I would gladly post it at a ‘pro-Palestinian’ site because it criticises the Palestinian leadership, and unlike Alan A, I think it’s important to challenge people’s assumptions (although I realise the PA isn’t exactly wildly popular with many pro-Palestinians).</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Cipriano</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:04 pm</td></tr>
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No, Matt’s point is perfectly good. It brings my continuing dilemnmna into focus: should we be setting our own agenda for Palestinian development, which might make for stronger development but which they probably won’t listen to and which might anyway sound a bit “imperialist”: or whether we should be allowing them to set their own agenda, which in my case would mean switching off completely until the first scintilla of evidence emerges that any influential Palestinian has anything to say worth listening to. (If this were Twitter I’d finish with #pointlesstinians)</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:04 pm</td></tr>
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‘So, do we presume it ONLY became “covered in shit” as soon as the USA decided to defund UNESCO? Or, has it been like that for more than a few weeks while the USA WAS funding UNESCO.’</div>
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Um, no. UNESCO has had nothing to do with Hisham’s Palace so far. I explicitly blame the PA for the state of the mosaic, which by its appearance has clearly been neglected for years. I don’t think that’s a reasonable interpretation of what I was saying.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Gabriel</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:04 pm</td></tr>
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“Oh, sheesh, here we go again – yet another spittle-flecked, ignorant attack on Israel by the usual suspect.”</div>
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How is this piece an attack on Israel?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Discredited Andrew</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:05 pm</td></tr>
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“Which is odd, considering the Orwell quote at the top of this page.”</div>
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That’s always been ironic, I think. Its a stupid quote. If you don’t want to hear a point of view then its not a loss to anybody’s liberty. Harry always hated Orwell (a stalinist thing).</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:05 pm</td></tr>
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<i>Because these are my views and Harry’s Place was good enough to host them.</i></div>
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HP is good enough to sometimes host threads from people who’s opinions they generally don’t go overboard on but who are given the opportunity to explain themselves. Sometimes in a right of reply.</div>
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<i>You seem to be suggesting only writers who share your opinions, or the opinions normally posted around here, should be hosted by Harry’s Place.</i></div>
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Absolutely NOT! How dull it would make HP to only have people that posters generally agree with. Matt, as far as I am concerned you are welcome to post at HP as often as you like because you are such great entertainment and fun. Its great to see a liberal with little grasp of Israel/Palestinian politics flounder so badly. Its hoped you will take your new learnings back to the nest and help some fellow travellers.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:07 pm</td></tr>
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Matt</div>
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I think that the criticism you want to make of the Palestinian leadership needs to be hand-in-hand with a criticism of the Islamists who make up a sizable and de facto component of that leadership.</div>
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The making of an ideological breach with Islamism and an alliance with progressive strands within Zionism is of the essence of progressive and liberal struggle in the modernArab world, imho.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:12 pm</td></tr>
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And so to labour the analogy: the issues surrounding the neglect of the mosaic (both the corrupt practices of guardians and the wishes of the religious nutters to extirpate “non-Islamic” artifacts) mirror the issues surrounding the Palestinian leadership – corruption *and* Islamism.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:19 pm</td></tr>
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‘Look, I’m not sure what the purpose of this article is.’</div>
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The main point is to argue that UNEScO should do something about a valuable cultural relic that’s in danger of being lost.</div>
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‘But this is a basic problem with you, and your writing. Perhaps you think that, by being critical of the PA, you’re endearing yourself in some way to people who sympathy with Israelis, and establishing a reputation as a fair dealer.’</div>
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So when you disagree with me, I’m a borderline racist anti-Israeli zealot. And when you agree, I’m cynically trying to curry your favour. Look at it from my point of view: can you see why I feel I can’t win here?</div>
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Actually, I have no real intention to ‘endear’ myself to anyone; no matter how stupid and ill-informed you think I am, I’m afraid I actually believe everything I say. There’s no contradiction between having some strong criticisms of Israel and thinking the PA is incompetent – in fact many people think just that.</div>
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Far from expecting to endear myself to you, I actually mentioned to the site editor when I submitted this piece that I’d be interested to see how one or two people here manage to read what’s basically a piece about architecture as violent call to destroy Israel. I have a slightly inevitable sense that I’ll never be able to convince some people here I’m reasonable, sincere and principled. I guess I just know I’m not an anti-semite or a hater of Israel, and as long as all my Jewish and Israeli friends agree with me, I’m not too worried what some guy on the internet thinks of me.</div>
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However, I’m a little disappointed in you, Alan A, because you genuinely seem intelligent. So, no, I don’t particularly like to endear myself to you; but I do wish you would credit me with sincerity and reasonableness, even if you strongly disagree with me.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:20 pm</td></tr>
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<i>So, do we presume it ONLY became “covered in shit” as soon as the USA decided to defund UNESCO? Or, has it been like that for more than a few weeks while the USA WAS funding UNESCO.’</i></div>
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<i>Um, no. UNESCO has had nothing to do with Hisham’s Palace so far. I explicitly blame the PA for the state of the mosaic, which by its appearance has clearly been neglected for years. I don’t think that’s a reasonable interpretation of what I was saying.</i></div>
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Oh dear!</div>
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My point was TOO subtle for you. What the F… has USA decision to defund UNESCO got to do with the PA neglecting antiquities? I ask because you inserted this apparent irrelevance into your article. What relevance does USA defunding have to your point?</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:25 pm</td></tr>
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‘Oh, sheesh, here we go again – yet another spittle-flecked, ignorant attack on Israel by the usual suspect.’</div>
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I confess, I somewhat despair. This is an attack on the Palestinian Authority, if anything. There is nothing here that attacks Israel. I have many views that are critical of Israel, just as I’m often critical of the PA – I think it would be weird to find a government out there that doesn’t make big mistakes – but it just so happens there’s no attack on Israel in this piece.</div>
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At least Alan A evidently read the piece before contriving to find vile, nasty anti-Israeli opinions in there. Did you actually read it?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Barad</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:29 pm</td></tr>
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“If you think Cook is extreme, then why are you citing him at all?”</div>
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I was reading a fascinating book by that Austrian chappy last week. He was a bit harsh on the Jews for my taste but what he had to say about rail infrastructure was quite thought-provoking…</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:32 pm</td></tr>
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‘Oh dear!<br />
My point was TOO subtle for you. What the F… has USA decision to defund UNESCO got to do with the PA neglecting antiquities? I ask because you inserted this apparent irrelevance into your article. What relevance does USA defunding have to your point?’</div>
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I don’t think you’ll often be accused of an excess of subtlety, Dcook.</div>
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My point is UNESCO is important because there are governments who can’t or won’t take care of cultural treasures. Obviously it would be nice if all governments took total responsibility for such relics, making UNESCO redundant. But that’s not the case.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:35 pm</td></tr>
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Barad,</div>
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I don’t think Jonathan cook is in any way comparable to Hitler, and I think it’s shameful of you to resort to such analogies so easily. I do not believe Jonathan cook has killed six million Jews, though as always I am ready to change my view if you can provide evidence to the contrary.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:42 pm</td></tr>
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Alan A,</div>
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‘Well don’t parody an ethnic group. That is considered quite racist and improper.’</div>
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Aren’t you ashamed of yourself, Alan A? You know full well what I was doing in that sentence; you don’t believe it was racist at all. It was a sarcastic reference to the way certain Arabs or anti-Israelis like to talk. I dare say it’s the kind of thing you’d say. So why do you just blithely accuse me of racism? I understand you don’t like me, and I’m sorry about that, but you clearly have little to say about the matter at hand – unlike, for instance, Abu Faris – so you’re just trying to ruin the discussion by making totally insincere and slanderous implications. You should take that back, or clarify you don’t think I’ve said anything racist here. It’s a heavy charge to make against someone and throwing the accusation around trivially just trivialises the important fact that real racism exists and needs to be combatted.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:44 pm</td></tr>
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<i>You should take that back</i></div>
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or I’ll complain to mummy.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:47 pm</td></tr>
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<i>I confess, I somewhat despair</i></div>
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Awe, diddums.</div>
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<i>There is nothing here that attacks Israel.<br />
… There’s no blaming <b>the Zionists</b> for this one.</i></div>
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You don’t even know any more when you use nasty, swivel-eyed phrases, is that it?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:47 pm</td></tr>
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<i>However, I’m a little disappointed in you, Alan A, because you genuinely seem intelligent</i></div>
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Let’s all do a high fives with Alan A for seeming to be intelligent as far as Matt is concerned. :) You’ve got my palms Alan!</div>
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<i>I have a slightly inevitable sense that I’ll never be able to convince some people here I’m reasonable, sincere and principled.</i></div>
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Ah, “Liberty is theight to……..”</div>
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You know the rest. :)</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:50 pm</td></tr>
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Sarah,</div>
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<i>I think Matt is wiling both to accept and engage with different points of view</i></div>
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This is off the wall even for you. Hill managed to evade and avoid the point about Res. 242 for something like 50 posts (the ones he wrote, I mean) a few days ago.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:52 pm</td></tr>
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<i>However, I’m a little disappointed in you, Alan A, because you genuinely seem intelligent</i></div>
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I don’t think you even realise how embarassingly pompous, condescending and self-important you are.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:52 pm</td></tr>
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Abu faris,</div>
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‘you implicate the cause for this dereliction in the rampant corruption of the PA:<br />
But that is only half the story.<br />
The other half involves the connivance of persuasive, popularist religious bigots, who have mounted an equally shameless campaign of cultural illiteracy and vandalism wrapped up in the big black flag of Islamist intolerance and conservative literalist dogma. These people do not neglect the monuments of the past because they cannot profit from them: no, they vandalise the monuments of the past and seek their destruction as a matter of zealous religious principle. This principle being the antithesis of Umayyad appreciation and love of nature – the pervasive puritan iconoclasm that has dominated Islam ever since.<br />
One hand shakes the other, as they say.’</div>
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That’s an interesting point, just like all your posts in this thread. I’m sorry I haven’t been able to give your points the attention they deserve, but I’ve been trying to refute various posters who seem to have mistaken this piece for a call to destroy Israel. It’s disappointing, because views like yours – informed, well-argued – should be given the space and consideration they deserve.</div>
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So you think the poor state of Hisham’s Palace is, in large part, deliberate, because the PA is influenced by fundamentalist Islamicists who despise art and beauty and care little for the upkeep of such ancient treasures?</div>
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That’s an interesting view. As you may know, many Muslims believe Hisham’s Palace was the site of depraved, scandalous doings – in fact I’ve heard Jericho locals refer to it as the ‘house of sin’ and explain that it was used as a whorehouse.</div>
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When I looked into this claim it seems that the only basis for it is that the representation-focussed art and the design of the palace is considered decadent by Islamic standards, leading some to believe its owner was decadent, sinful, and so on.</div>
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But would the PA deliberately sabotage a potentially lucrative source of tourist income?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:54 pm</td></tr>
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<i>Obviously it would be nice if all governments took total responsibility for such relics, making UNESCO redundant</i></div>
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I’ve had an idea. Correct me if this seems a bit off-the-wall but aren’t there loads of Arab countries, Turkey and Greece (no scrub Greece!) who have a bit of dosh and a great love of wishing to preserve antiquities? Wouldn’t it be nice if they took care of it?</div>
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Or, call in the Taliban. They’ll have it raised to the ground quicker than you can say “ancient religious statues”.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:55 pm</td></tr>
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‘Let’s all do a high fives with Alan A for seeming to be intelligent as far as Matt is concerned. :) You’ve got my palms Alan!<br />
I have a slightly inevitable sense that I’ll never be able to convince some people here I’m reasonable, sincere and principled.<br />
Ah, “Liberty is theight to……..”<br />
You know the rest. :)’</div>
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Thanks for that contribution, Dcook. Do you mind if I borrow your expertise by quoting you next time I’m talking about Islamic art?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarka</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 6:58 pm</td></tr>
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Abu Faris<br />
It’s a good point that PA hasn’t been neglecting such sites out of corruption, but just because they are not a priority with anyone there. Despite the glories of Islamic heritage, the present mood of revivalist Islam is almost as hostile to such stuff as it is to non-Islamic heritage.</div>
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I do like the Tree of Life though – is it true that this is the only original exemplar of the particular Tree with lion jumping on gazelle?</div>
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I have a personal interest – because I have it on my kitchen wall along with other tile mosaics recently purchased from the Armenian Pottery in Jerusalem – and pleasingly the subject of huge admiration from all my friends…</div>
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These Armenian chaps, Christian Israelis – who were really nice and helpful and not even expensive – are descendants of a family imported a century ago to work on mosques.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:02 pm</td></tr>
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‘I’ve had an idea. Correct me if this seems a bit off-the-wall but aren’t there loads of Arab countries, Turkey and Greece (no scrub Greece!) who have a bit of dosh and a great love of wishing to preserve antiquities? Wouldn’t it be nice if they took care of it?’</div>
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Turkey and Greece are not, I believe, Arab countries. I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. Are you saying that Arabs (plus Turkey and Greece, for some reason) should look after Arab cultural relics; that Jews should look after Jewish cultural relics; that blacks should look after their own cultural relics; and so on? That seem to be the implication – that each ethnic group has a duty and interest in looking after its own culture, to the exclusion of the rest of us. Though I admit I’m throw by this Turkey and Greece business. I suppose it’s possible you’re being too subtle for me, but you seem to be implying that there’s no such thing as cultural relics that people, in general, might have good reasons to preserve.</div>
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Don’t you think it would be sad if a beautiful piece of Umayyad art was destroyed forever? Or do you think only Arabs would have any business being bothered?</div>
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I think you must definitely be too subtle for me.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:09 pm</td></tr>
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Peter,</div>
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I think I make a lot of effort to engage with posters below the line. But you may have noticed my pieces attract a lot of adverse comment, so I can’t always reply to every one. Sometimes I might ignore a post by accident. Other times it’s because I think the post is not worth replying to, because in my view it’s a worthless point. Sometimes I don’t want to be rude, so I ignore a post that’s not worth replying to, and then, if the author protests, I pretend I just hadn’t seen it.</div>
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Anyway, I’m sorry, I guess I didn’t see your post.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #d70606;">Alan A</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:10 pm</td></tr>
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ha ha ha ha ha</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://www.hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #d70606;">Alan A</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:11 pm</td></tr>
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“But would the PA deliberately sabotage a potentially lucrative source of tourist income?”</div>
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It appears to be quite good at sabotaging its own statehood. So I’d guess: yes.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nate</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:12 pm</td></tr>
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Matt,<br />
I have a hard time understanding why you are still allowed to write here. My feeling is that HP is trying to raise advertising money because through how many page clicks your articles get as people are outraged by your naive stances. I’ll ignore for a moment that you’ve decided that the Temple Mount and the Cave of the Patriarchs are Palestinian sites, rather than Jewish sites – a description that betrays much about your views. Are you seriously implying though, that Palestinians despair over this disrepair? Because the Palestinians are actively involved in the destruction of archeological treasures, much more actively than the neglect of which you speak. How about the way they treat Joseph’s Tomb by burning it and spraypainting it, while pretending that it is just as important to them as it is to the Jews? Or how the Waqf digs up the Temple Mount with heavy machinery to destroy Jewish traces (which have later been found in the landfills) without either UNESCO or Palestinians, or people like you saying a word? Or how they have adopted Rachel’s Tomb and other Jewish sites as “mosques” with full UNESCO backing? UNESCO, through action and ommission, has been complicit in the Palestinian rewriting of history and destroying of Jewish heritage, and yet you point to how important UNESCO is in preserving a site that they clearly haven’t shown interest in before and that is entirely the responsibility of the Palestinians. How is this post relevant to anything? Literally. Anything? And how would it symbolize “a world uniting to help a nation rise up out of its ruins?” when that nation has shown no interest in this act, or in rising up, and when the leadership of this nation (which often would be presumed to represent that nation) is the party guilty of negligence? And how has this nation ever been “ruined”? And how would engaging in a project that no one in the region seems to care about, somehow prove that the UNESCO moves was more than a stunt? And why are you so desperate to give that stunt cover? I can’t even begin to wrap my head around these ramblings.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lynne T</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:13 pm</td></tr>
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Matt Hill<br />
21 November 2011, 5:21 pm</div>
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Obviously, your attempt at paroday wasn’t obvious.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:13 pm</td></tr>
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As you may know, many Muslims believe Hisham’s Palace was the site of depraved, scandalous doings – in fact I’ve heard Jericho locals refer to it as the ‘house of sin’ and explain that it was used as a whorehouse.</div>
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When I looked into this claim it seems that the only basis for it is that the representation-focussed art and the design of the palace is considered decadent by Islamic standards, leading some to believe its owner was decadent, sinful, and so on.</div>
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But would the PA deliberately sabotage a potentially lucrative source of tourist income?</div>
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I think there is an element of the anti-decadent movement of Islamism in all this – however, I think the tragedy that you describe unfolding at that incredibly important archaeological site is more the *consequence* of the exigent collision of blind greed *and* Islamist fervour – they both have a vested interest in doing nothing to preserve this site. The local bureaucrats out of interest for their pockets, the Islamists for their own religious-political ends. Further, one seems to support the other by default – the Islamists can rely on the local curators to let the hated thing slip into decay because of the latters’ greed; the local curators can use Islamist language to excuse their thieving ways with the funds needed for preservation. Everyone’s happy.</div>
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Incidentally, the alleged venality and sensualism of the Umayyad form part of the negative propaganda that issued from both eventual successors of that dynasty of Caliphs, the Abbasid Caliphate and from Shi’a opponents of the Umayyad. It continues to this day.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:19 pm</td></tr>
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Sarka</div>
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This from Syria:</div>
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<a href="http://www.bdtw.tv/files/bdtw.tv/images/lion%20and%20gazelle%20mosaic.JPG" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://www.bdtw.tv/files/bdtw.tv/images/lion%20and%20gazelle%20mosaic.JPG</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:26 pm</td></tr>
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RE: AngryPeter: ‘Oh, sheesh, here we go again – yet another spittle-flecked, ignorant attack on Israel by the usual suspect.’</div>
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Matt: I confess, I somewhat despair. This is an attack on the Palestinian Authority, if anything.</div>
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I agree with Matt. AngryPeter is the kind of fellow that Woody Allen described in Annie Hall. If he hears someone says “did you” quickly, he hears Didjew, and cries antisemitism.</div>
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As for “I don’t think you even realise how embarassingly pompous, condescending and self-important you are,” it’s today’s winner of the POT.KETTLE.BLACK award, though this, aimed at Sarah by the same Angry Peter, comes a close second: “This is off the wall even for you.”</div>
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And oh yeah, I know, I’m obtuse.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:28 pm</td></tr>
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<i>I’ve had an idea. Correct me if this seems a bit off-the-wall but aren’t there loads of Arab countries, Turkey and Greece (no scrub Greece!) who have a bit of dosh and a great love of wishing to preserve antiquities? Wouldn’t it be nice if they took care of it?’</i></div>
<i></i><br />
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<i>Turkey and Greece are not, I believe, Arab countries.</i></div>
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The clue to understanding that sentence is to respect the comma!!!</div>
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<i>I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. Are you saying that Arabs (plus Turkey and Greece, for some reason) should look after Arab cultural relics;</i></div>
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Turkey, or Ottoman Empire as it was once known ………………….</div>
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Tiresome!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://nilesider.wordpress.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Abu Faris</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:32 pm</td></tr>
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UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE</div>
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Entire civilian cabinet of interim government in Egypt resigns in protest against military crackdown on demonstrators.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:35 pm</td></tr>
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<i>Other times it’s because I think the post is not worth replying to, because in my view it’s a worthless point</i></div>
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But some of us have more patience than you and so YOUR posts ARE getting replies, despite the worthlessness of many of your points.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:36 pm</td></tr>
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‘I’ll ignore for a moment that you’ve decided that the Temple Mount and the Cave of the Patriarchs are Palestinian sites, rather than Jewish sites – a description that betrays much about your views.’</div>
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Well that could be taken as a rather innocuous description, since these sites came about when the land was known by many as Palestine.</div>
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But if you want to read it as a political claim – yes, I don’t mind saying that both these sites are on land Israel occupied in 1967, so I consider them part of occupied Palestine. I realise not everyone will agree, but it’s a reasonable enough view. Or do you think all 15 of the judges on the International court of Justice were somehow rabid anti-semites when they unanimously declared that this was illegally occupied land? Including all three Jewish ones?</div>
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Look, you don’t have to agree with me, but it’s a reasonable enough opinion to hold. Refute it if you like, but don’t say it shouldn’t be ‘allowed’.</div>
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Once again it seems everyone’s prepared to listen to opinions they don’t want to hear, as per Orwell, except when they don’t want to hear them.</div>
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And I’m pretty sure I’m not being hosted to raise advertising money.</div>
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‘Are you seriously implying though, that Palestinians despair over this disrepair?’</div>
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No, I quite explicitly said it was their leaders’ fault, didn’t I? I don’t think I ever implied that.</div>
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‘Because the Palestinians are actively involved in the destruction of archeological treasures, much more actively than the neglect of which you speak. How about the way they treat Joseph’s Tomb by burning it and spraypainting it, while pretending that it is just as important to them as it is to the Jews? Or how the Waqf digs up the Temple Mount with heavy machinery to destroy Jewish traces (which have later been found in the landfills) without either UNESCO or Palestinians, or people like you saying a word?’</div>
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People like me? When have you ever written an article complaining about the PA’s neglect of cultural relics? It seems that it’s precisely ‘people like me’ – whatever that means – who are doing so! I think you’re getting me confused with an uncritical pro-Palestinian.</div>
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I’m sorry, I couldn’t think of anything to say to the rest of your post. I think you are trying to argue with someone else.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:53 pm</td></tr>
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<i>‘I’ll ignore for a moment that you’ve decided that the Temple Mount and the Cave of the Patriarchs are Palestinian sites, rather than Jewish sites – a description that betrays much about your views.’</i></div>
<i></i><br />
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<i>Well that could be taken as a rather innocuous description, since these sites came about when the land was known by many as Palestine.</i></div>
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In 1922 when Palestine was designated The Jewish National Home.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:53 pm</td></tr>
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RE: I think you are trying to argue with someone else.</div>
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I think you’re right, Matt. It does appear they haven’t actually read your words in this article, but are arguing with a phantom pro-Palestinian whom they identify with you because of previous things you’ve written (much of which I also disagree with, as it happens). Which doesn’t give anyone the right to impute views to you that you don’t hold.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:55 pm</td></tr>
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RE: In 1922 when Palestine was designated The Jewish National Home.</div>
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Yes, but it was still called Palestine in 1922, and it still supports Matt’s view that given that, it was innocuous to call them “Palestinian sites.” Of course, any reasonable person should concede that the Temple Mount and the Tomb of the Patriarchs are Jewish historical sites, as is Rachel’s Tomb and all the rest.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarka</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 7:57 pm</td></tr>
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Abu<br />
I like your lion and gazelle, but there is conspicuous absence of tree. My Armenian/Jerusalem walltile features tree with a coupla gazelles on one side looking placid happy and on the other a lion jumping on a less fortunate gazelle.</div>
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Matt- sorry to divert you from big political issues for a mo, but I can’t get an image from your link (I get someone offering me an email account). Maybe I shall get intrigued enough to write to the Jerusalem potters and ask them where the original idea for the design came from – this being the simplest 22-dollar version</div>
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<a href="http://jerusalempottery.biz/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=JP&Product_Code=T8" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://jerusalempottery.biz/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=JP&Product_Code=T8</a></div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nate</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:03 pm</td></tr>
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I say people like you because you choose the most innocuous topics rather than acknowledge the more relevant matters when such matters would potentially vilify Palestinian society, and you then absolve the Palestinians as a whole by referring merely to their leadership. People like you who complain about the neglect of cultural relics that Palestinians don’t seem too concerned with, but show no concern for Jewish relics, that are intentionally destroyed for political purposes and that are desecrated by Palestinian civilians. It’s this selectivity with which I identify “people like you”.<br />
As for being “allowed”to post, it’s not simply because I believe you are wrong. That’s perfectly fine, and anyone has a right to post an opposing view. My gripe is that your posts are useless, naive and add absolutely nothing of substance to the dialogue, and therefore represent a lower lever of quality than I am used to at this site.<br />
As for the Temple Mount, no peace proposal has ever called for Jews to cede that land (maybe to internationalize it, but certainly not to make it Palestinian, as it never has been “Palestinian”), so your decision to call Judaism’s most holy site “Palestinian” is not a reasonable enough view. Since UNSC 242 and all potential outcomes allow for Israel to keep some of the land from 1967, you are clearly thinking outside of what’s considered the practical resolution to the conflict.<br />
And if you agree that Palestinians don’t seem to care too much about this matter, how would this act of symbolism accomplish anything? What is your point, Matt? You say it’s not about American defunding, then why even mention that? You admit that it doesn’t matter to Palestinians, then why would it help them rise up? And UNESCO is clearly just as political and anti-Israel a group as the rest of the UN, so why insist on showing its worth by giving cover to a political ploy? UNESCO could play a part in resolving the conflict, by calling for compromise and admitting the heritage claims of both nations on that land, but it has played a very poisonous and politicized role that fixing up a mosaic wouldn’t undo. So… what is your point Matt?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>boyinthebubble</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:07 pm</td></tr>
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I don’t think the PA has any intention of using its membership of UNESCO in order to preserve the Hisham Palace. You know perfectly well that their bid for membership was a political move aimed at undermining Israel’s legal position regarding the antiquities in its care. To quote Hatem Abdel Qader, former PA Jerusalem affairs minister, “We will take Israel to court for systematically destroying and forging Arab and Islamic culture in Jerusalem” The sheer brass-neck of that statement beggars belief when one considers how the Palestinians have desecrated Jewish synagogues and holy sites in Jericho, Nablus and Gush Katif, to name only a few from a long list. The whole bid for UNESCO membership stinks of political cynicism. The US was absolutely right in withdrawing funds from a manoeuvre who’s only result would to corrupt the very articles UNESCO is founded on.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:07 pm</td></tr>
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Dcook,</div>
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That’s interesting. So you think Turkey is responsible for Palestine’s cultural relics because Palestine once belonged to Turkey’s empire?</div>
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But Palestine belonged to Britain more recently, so by your logic shouldn’t we be picking up the tab?</div>
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In some ways, people like you impress me. I keep making you look stupid, and you keep coming back for more, and you even suggest it’s tiresome having to explain yourself to someone of my low intelligence. I admire your chutzpah, I really do.</div>
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Sorry if this sounds arrogant – I actually don’t see it as such, because your point is so absurd that it takes very little acumen to make you look stupid. I just told my girlfriend about your fascinating Ottoman Empire point, and she’s still laughing. This one’s from her: so next time there’s an Australian cultural relic that needs saving, India should step in as a former member of the British empire?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nate</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:09 pm</td></tr>
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“Yes, but it was still called Palestine in 1922, and it still supports Matt’s view that given that, it was innocuous to call them “Palestinian sites.” Of course, any reasonable person should concede that the Temple Mount and the Tomb of the Patriarchs are Jewish historical sites, as is Rachel’s Tomb and all the rest.”</div>
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Is Matt included in this description of “any reasonable person” because he did not claim to be? And UNESCO certainly doesn’t act in keeping with this “reasonable” idea, nor do any Arabs who I have seen or read in opining on this matter.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:11 pm</td></tr>
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‘I think you’re right, Matt. It does appear they haven’t actually read your words in this article, but are arguing with a phantom pro-Palestinian whom they identify with you because of previous things you’ve written (much of which I also disagree with, as it happens). Which doesn’t give anyone the right to impute views to you that you don’t hold.’</div>
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I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, even passionately. But I think we should be able to disagree with each other civilly. And this thread is just amusing – the way in which my words are being twisted seems like some unimaginative Palestine Solidarity campaign member’s parody of inflexible, paranoid pro-Israel rhetoric.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:14 pm</td></tr>
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Nate,</div>
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‘So… what is your point Matt?’</div>
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That Israel should be destroyed, Nate, and all the Jews pushed into the sea. I decided to cunningly disguise my evil views with a call for a cultural agency to do something about the neglect of a historic relic. You found me out, though. What can I say?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:19 pm</td></tr>
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Sorry all, have to go. I can only apologise for the vile, anti-Israeli sentiments in this article, which so many of you have perceptively decoded.</div>
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As always, I’ll check back later and reply to all reasonable comments. And when I’ve replied to both of those, I might even reply to some unreasonable ones, too.</div>
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I look forward to finding out the new, ingenious ways in which my words can be twisted into hateful racist rants.</div>
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By the way, if anyone has anything to say about UNEScO, Hisham’s Palace, PA corruption, etc, don’t be afraid to go off topic.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:25 pm</td></tr>
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‘Of course, any reasonable person should concede that the Temple Mount and the Tomb of the Patriarchs are Jewish historical sites, as is Rachel’s Tomb and all the rest.’</div>
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Yes – but the Temple Mount isn’t an exclusively Jewish historical site, is it? That’s the whole problem. Rachel’s Tomb, though, really ought to be recognised as a Jewish site primarily (I would say exclusively but I can’t help it if some Muslims have the idea it’s holy to them – I don’t think anything’s holy, so to me both religious Jews and religious Muslims are fundamentally as mistaken as each other, if you see what I mean…).</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:36 pm</td></tr>
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RE: your posts … represent a lower lever of quality than I am used to at this site.</div>
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Ridiculous.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:40 pm</td></tr>
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Matt: I wasn’t talking about “holy,” I was talking about historical. Now, Rachel was a Jewish matriarch, ergo, her tomb is a Jewish historical site. That Muslims (and Christians?) attach themselves to Jewish historical sites is certainly a fact, but it doesn’t detract from the original Jewish historicity of the site in question. And the same, I might add, applies to the temple mount. Or did you think Muhammed’s ascent to heaven (such as it was), and the subsequent building of Al Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock on that site, were coincidences? In short, if Jewish history hadn’t created these sites, neither Muslims nor Christians would give a damn about them.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lynne T</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:41 pm</td></tr>
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Abu Faris<br />
21 November 2011, 7:13 pm</div>
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First and foremost, I hope you, your family and your neighbours are and will remain safe from harm.</div>
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As re: the PA being remiss in promoting tourism vis a vis an antiquity relating to the rule of a particular Caliphate, well, since when has the PA, Salam Fayyed excepted, been terribly astute at taking care of business? And no doubt, until Abbas threw him under the bus the other day, Fayyed was more engaged in staunching corruption and policing the “militants” than he was at worrying over whether full tourism value was being appreciated at some particular site.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:43 pm</td></tr>
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Well I agree with that, vildechaye. But if it’s taken to mean that the Jews have more of a ‘right’ to the Temple Mount than the Muslims, I can’t agree. I think they should find some way to stop squabbling and share it.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:52 pm</td></tr>
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<i>RE: In 1922 when Palestine was designated The Jewish National Home.</i></div>
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<i>Yes, but it was still called Palestine in 1922,</i></div>
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So you violently agree with me. Even by 1947 the Jews of Palestine were called “Palestinians”.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarka</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 8:54 pm</td></tr>
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Matt<br />
Still no link to image (sigh – are you really as interested in it as all that?).<br />
On a general peaceable note, can I remark that UNESCO is not known for being terrible pro-active as far as historical sites are concerned. Basically the nations sit around in UNESCO and compete for status and funds for their fave sites – and this means that in the reasonably democratic nations stuff depends on local organisations including NGOs etc making a big big fuss to national governments about how they want UNESCO status and then getting requests/applications put forward to UNESCO.<br />
UNESCO’s leverage on people abusing or neglecting heritage sites depends almost entirely on their already having been put e.g. on their magic list…and UNESCO then making stern remarks about how they will be taken off the magic list unless they MEND THEIR WAYS. This has happened, for example, in recent years with threats over loss of status to the biggest UNESCO cultural heritage site in the world, viz…much of central Prague.</div>
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They don’t utter more than whimpers or nothing if there is neglect or threats to sites that were never on the magic list. So basically if the PA won’t bother, it wouldn’t be normal procedure for UNESCO to bother…</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 9:10 pm</td></tr>
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Sarka,</div>
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Sorry, what are you looking for? I’m a bit busy now but I’ll find the image you want if I can.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 9:28 pm</td></tr>
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<i>just told my girlfriend about your fascinating Ottoman Empire point, and she’s still laughing.</i></div>
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Makes a change she’s laughing with you rather than at you.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Peter</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 9:30 pm</td></tr>
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<i>I don’t mind saying that both these sites are on land Israel occupied in 1967, so I consider them part of occupied Palestine.</i></div>
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You did fail Logic 101, didn’t you? Being ‘occupied’ (even if we accept that it is, which I don’t) doesn’t make it ‘Palestine’, much less ‘Palestinian’.</div>
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<i>Or do you think all 15 of the judges on the International court of Justice were somehow rabid anti-semites when they unanimously declared that this was illegally occupied land?</i></div>
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No, just thick and ignorant, e.g. of the legal history since the LoN mandate. For crying out loud, they didn’t even understand the simple legal concept that the Green Line was never a de jure international border.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://hurryupharry.org/" style="color: #d70606;">Sarah AB</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 9:31 pm</td></tr>
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I apologise for problems with links. I will try to fix these.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lynne T</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 9:44 pm</td></tr>
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Vildechaye:</div>
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You are too subtle here for most readers, not just Matt Hill.</div>
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I expect your intention was to point out that the caliphate responsible for the erection of the Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock built proximate to what was left of Solomon’s temples — on the rather flimsy context cooked up a few centuries after the fact that Mohammed travelled to “the far mosque” in order to ascend to the heavens on horseback — was nothing more than a political act to establish dominance both locally and in the greater context, as Islam’s true centre is in Saudi Arabia with signifcant sites in Iraq and Iran.</div>
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And to further reinforce the politics behind the locations of Aqsa and the Dome on Temple Mount, I recall a lecture given by historian Bernard Lewis gave a number of years ago that was broadcast on the CBC, in which he pointed out that either the Aqsa Mosque or the Dome of the Rock was built squarely upon the site of a Byzantine church, and on the walls of the mosque/dome, there is an inscription that directly disses Christian theology.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sue R</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 10:00 pm</td></tr>
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To be honest, if the Palestinians aren’t bothered about their historical sites, for whatever reason, no-one is going to make them do anything. This is a rather naive article. The only reason I can see that it was written was to obliquely plead that the Americans don’t pull the plug on UNESCO funding. At the end of the day, it’s down to the inhabitants of a country to take care of it, and obviously some inhabitants and some countries are better at that than others. Sarcasm never works on the internet, it relies on knowing a person really well, inflexions of voice and facial grimaces, none of which are available in the medium of type. Every thing written on the web is taken literally, especially when it is a touchy subject. So your wisecracks about ‘Zionists’ come over as literal.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 10:06 pm</td></tr>
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Sue R,</div>
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That’s right, it’s impossible to convey sarcasm using just text, isn’t it?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sue R</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 10:28 pm</td></tr>
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Are you being sarcastic?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarka</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 21 November 2011, 10:57 pm</td></tr>
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Matt<br />
I just wanted an image of your Tree of Life. Maybe Sarah can fix the problem….</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>mettaculture</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 12:01 am</td></tr>
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Matt Hill</div>
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Civility is nice though it not a synonym for reasonable, in orientation or argument.</div>
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Frankly I believe that your intentions are decent (though ‘the road to hell’ and all that) though this has little bearing on what I think of the strength or even reasonableness of your arguments.</div>
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In fact I give you the benefit of the doubt on your actual desire for ‘impartiality’ because of your position on the ‘right of return for Palestinian refugees’ as this issue alone is enough to exclude you from being considered pro-Palestinian among Palestinians, though of course not among liberal Israeli’s. I do wonder however wether you are grounded enough in the millieu of Palestinian/Arab opinion to realise how non-negotiable this issue really is above all reason but that is another issue.</div>
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I do not find your posts, in and of themselves, particularly objectionable. They are arguments and presented as arguments inviting debate, objections and criticism.</div>
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As arguments they will be crticised either in form (the structure of the argument, its persuasiveness, logicality of propositions, coherence etc) or in substance (accuracy and completness of fact, political, sociological historical knowledge etc).</div>
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In the post-modern theoretical world you should also expect a foundational ideological interrogation in the sense of ‘where are you coming from?’ ‘what is your bias or the appearance of bias’, in short what is your ‘real view’ and what is your ‘real agenda’.</div>
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You should be able to address these ‘real arguments’ as they are, conventionally speaking,’reasonable’ whether or not they are, strictly speaking, civil.</div>
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Of course some people will respond to you reflexively, unreasonably and irrationally either because that is what they do, or, more likely because of their own preconceived ideas on the issues or what they believe to be your ‘agenda’.</div>
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It is your reaction to criticism that I find extraordinary and I think it is here that you lose sympathy.</div>
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Of course you do not have to respond to actual abuse, however, the use of a wholly conventional ‘you say’ or ‘your writing shows’ or even ‘your argument is rubbish’ is not abuse, nor is it, even, personal criticism, so it looks like you are trying to duck an argument when you characterise a person’s argument as personal attack.</div>
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You consistently isolate one or two words from a commenter’s criticisms and then portray the entirety as a ‘vile, nasty’ personal attack, or worse, accuse all critics of accusing you of wanting to destroy Israel (no-one has done that on this thread).</div>
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You should not have such a thick skin if you really believe your arguments are defendable. Just defend your positions by argument not by reference to your jewish or israeli friends who think the same way.</div>
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I am not bothered by the ‘There’s no blaming the Zionists for this one.’ as I found it perfectly explained by the previous;</div>
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<i>Hisham’s Palace is in West Bank Area A, which, in Oslo-speak, means it’s under Palestinian jurisdiction. In other words its scandalous state (imagine leaving a Rembrandt out for a few hours in Trafalgar Square) is entirely the fault of the Palestinian Authority. There’s no blaming the Zionists for this one.</i>.</div>
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I found this the most pointless reason for people to criticise your post as one should have been able to read this straightforwardly (without any need for sarcasm emoticons) as a statement saying; that unlike other historical/religious sites of importance to Muslims and Arabs and Palestinians, for which Palestinian accusations of neglect have been made, the Hisham Palace is solely the responsibility of the PA.</div>
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On the other hand there are many valid criticisms of the post and of your general sense of ‘balance’ which lead, arguably, to a biased or less than impartial account.</div>
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For example Nate while not disguising the fact that he does not like your articles, has made many valid criticisms of the underlying assumptions guiding your choice of subject matter being based on an actual political fact of UNESCO having recognised Palestine as a state (obliquely referenced) while framing it as a purely hypothetical point of what UNESCO might do for Palestinians.</div>
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Nate’s arguments are not inherently unreasonable and deserve a reasoned response.</div>
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Notwithstanding Nate’s expressed dislike of your arguments and articles, Matt Hill, he did not personally attack or abuse you.</div>
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Only the final line of Nate’s post stated ‘So… What is your point Matt’. The fact that there was relevant prior content and argument is clear from the ‘So…… It was;</div>
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<i>UNESCO could play a part in resolving the conflict, by calling for compromise and admitting the heritage claims of both nations on that land, but it has played a very poisonous and politicized role that fixing up a mosaic wouldn’t undo. So… what is your point Matt?</i></div>
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Yet you chose to respond to Nate in this way;</div>
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<i>So… what is your point Matt?</i></div>
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<i>That Israel should be destroyed, Nate, and all the Jews pushed into the sea. I decided to cunningly disguise my evil views with a call for a cultural agency to do something about the neglect of a historic relic. You found me out, though. What can I say?</i></div>
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Quite a gobsmackingly idiotic reply, the arrogance of which is only matched by your apparent ignorance of UNESCO, it’s mission, it’s programmes and it’s biased history in relation to Israel/Palestine.</div>
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If the parallel theme of this post has been selective quoting out of context and a faux literal reading of that selection, then when you say;</div>
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‘What can I say?’ I have to say an awful lot more, or alternatively an awful lot less but more directly.</div>
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You could start with UNESCO and it’s actual programmatic history, given that you based your post on what you think they should do to symbolise and further Palestinian statehood, now put in jeopardy by it’s own actions.</div>
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It is not all about the perfidious US and it’s eternal subterfuge you know.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 12:17 am</td></tr>
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Sarka,</div>
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Sorry for the delay; I did link to the mosaic in the post. Here it is (scroll down to bottom):</div>
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<a href="http://www.atlastours.net/holyland/hishams_palace.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://www.atlastours.net/holyland/hishams_palace.html</a></div>
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I confess I’d be glad to have someone explain the allegory to me (or at least give a convincing interpretation).</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 12:57 am</td></tr>
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RE: And UNESCO certainly doesn’t act in keeping with this “reasonable” idea, nor do any Arabs who I have seen or read in opining on this matter.</div>
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Have I ever said that UNESCO or, for that matter, most Arabs or Muslims who have an opinion on this are reasonable? They certainly don’t behave that way.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 1:00 am</td></tr>
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RE: But if it’s taken to mean that the Jews have more of a ‘right’ to the Temple Mount than the Muslims, I can’t agree.</div>
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That wasn’t how it was meant, Matt. That being said, I think it’s quite cheeky for Muslims to go on and on about Jerusalem when (a) their holiest sites are elsewhere; (b) they (in this case Jordan) treated Jerusalem rather shabbily when they held it); and (c) Israel does share the temple mount, whereas it seems unlikely a Palestinian state controlling the temple mount would.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:11 am</td></tr>
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vildechaye,</div>
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Ok, I didn’t say that’s how you meant it; I was just clarifying my own view. I agree with points b) and c), in the main, though I think the argument that the Palestinians shouldn’t ‘go on’ about Jerusalem, because the holiest Muslim sites are elsewhere, is a little misleading. Jerusalem is considered by Palestinians their capital city. That isn’t some innovative notion, cynically invented to annoy Jews. It was true long before the Six-Day War. To say the Palestinians should give up Jerusalem is like saying that the British should have no problem giving up London, because christians still have the Vatican.</div>
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However I also understand the integral importance of the Temple Mount to Jews. Which is why, ultimately, the two sides must somehow learn to share sovereignty over the compound. (Yes, Israel shares access but not sovereignty, and has often closed the Dome of the Rock or prevented young men from worshipping there – hardly the worst crimes in the world, I grant you, but illustration that it’s not fully shared in the sense it ought to be, with neither side having ultimate control. This is probably the most difficult issue to solve in any potential peace deal.</div>
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mettaculture,</div>
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Much of what you say is very fair, including your criticisms of me. I’ll have to address them tomorrow though, as it’s past my bed time.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Lynne T</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:16 am</td></tr>
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Matt Hill:</div>
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As a matter of historic/demographic fact, Jerusalem remained primarily a Jewish centre until well into the 20th century. If I recall correctly, a majority of Jerusalem’s Arab/Palestinian/non-Jewish population arrived after the ‘67 war.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Nate</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:39 am</td></tr>
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Matt,<br />
Your reflex to go to the furthest extreme in your response to me, is more than a little immature. I am not saying or even implying that your true intention is Israel’s destruction, although you show very little understanding and sympathy for the reality in which it exists. I don’t find your post to be racist, anti-Semitic, or even hostile… just slight. I honestly don’t see the point of this post in a world where the topic has so much more to discuss. It’s more sentimentalism that treats the Palestinians as victims (if not of the west, then of their own leadership) without acknowledging more ugly truths. Like why is it that the ICC, which is mired in the politics of the UN would never vote in Israel’s favor? Why is it that UNESCO could never be expected to act in the way you imply they would? Why would you even have such an expectation from a body that has ruled Rachel’s tomb a mosque? Why would the US cut funding? Why do you even bring up the idea of American “subterfuge”? Why would young men be kept from the Temple Mount? And, where did this idea of Palestine having a capital in Jerusalem even come from, if you truly don’t believe it to be a spiteful political move (which Jerusalem has always played to Muslims)? If the PLO in ‘64 proclaimed that they had no claim to the West Bank (which was under Jordanian control), how does that reconcile with your assertion that Palestinians have always considered Jerusalem to be their capital? These are questions of substance. Your post doesn’t address anything of any importance, and attempts to make a cause where none exists. All it does is perpetuate your sense of Palestinian victimhood as a people who need to be helped in “rising from their ruins”. Mettaculture, thanks for putting the rest of my arguments into more level-headed words! (that wasn’t sarcastic).</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Penny</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:51 am</td></tr>
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Matt</div>
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I sent you a link to a video in which Alan Dershowitz spoke of a discussion he had with Fayyad regarding Jerusalem. Did you watch it?</div>
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Fayyad was at least honest when he said the city was a matter of ‘location, location, location’. In other words, the Palestinian claim was less one of the heart or a national/cultural claim and more a case of knowing that it means so much to the Jews that it was seen as a highly valuable bargaining chip for land elsewhere in Israel.</div>
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It seems to me that when you view negotiations between the Palestinians and the Israelis, you tend to factor out, or consider unimportant, the consequences that occur when one nation – in this case the Arab nation – attacks another (three times) and loses. Maybe I’m wrong but you seem to believe that despite these wars and terrorism the clock should be re-set to 1947.</div>
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I also sent you a link to Eugene Rostow’s paper about the legality of the settlements and Res 242. As he co-wrote this resolution, his commentary should be seen as pretty sound. Did you read it?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Telavivit</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 5:08 am</td></tr>
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” Jerusalem is considered by Palestinians their capital city… It was true long before the Six-Day War…”</div>
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References?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>vildechaye</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 5:19 am</td></tr>
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Matt: I never said Palestinians shouldn’t go on about Jerusalem (though it should be noted that by the 1840s (i.e. not the 1940s, the 1840s), Jews were the majority population in Jerusalem. I was referring to Muslims, as the discussion at that point was about religion, not nations or nationalities.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 6:37 am</td></tr>
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Matt – I left a comment on your blog which is of relevance to Nate’s point, raising two stories about sites in Israel.</div>
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<a href="http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/israel-prize-laureate-opposes-museum-of-tolerance-1.260500" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/israel-prize-laureate-opposes-museum-of-tolerance-1.260500</a></div>
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<a href="http://english.pnn.ps/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10799&Itemid=64" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://english.pnn.ps/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10799&Itemid=64</a></div>
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The first story is one I came across through a reference to it from a pro-Palestinian commenter. When I looked into it further I felt that the story had been twisted, eg glossing over the fact the site had been used as a car park for years. So when I came across a reference to this other story about complaints about demolishing the Moroccan bridge – I was open to the possibility that this was also exaggerated or distorted. I haven’t really investigated it though. I wondered if you, or other commenters, had views about the stories.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Israelinurse</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 7:46 am</td></tr>
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This is a very important subject on a much wider basis than just the preservation of the Hisham’s Palace mosaic. All over the Middle East important archaeological sites are in danger of being lost to humankind due to a combination of factors, including political ones.</div>
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The aspect of this cited by Abu Faris above is a very important one – ie the negation of other cultures by political/religious extremists. One only has to remember the destruction of the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan, the looting of the museum in Cairo last January or the continuing deterioration and vandalising of Yehezkel’s tomb in Iraq to see that this is a much broader issue. It is also a subject which I would suggest Matt Hill study further as it may contribute to his understanding of the region as a whole.</div>
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As others have pointed out above, there are literally dozens of important sites all over Judea, Samaria and Gaza which are in grave danger not merely due to a lack of resources (which could be solved by organisations such as UNESCO) but because archaeology has become a political weapon in attempts to dictate the ‘narrative’.</div>
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If UNESCO (big ‘if’) really intends to be of use, then one of its first tasks must be to educate on the fact that these sites belong to mankind as a whole and as such must be preserved.</div>
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One dreads to think what has become, for example, of the 6th century synagogue in Gaza.</div>
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<a href="http://cojs.org/cojswiki/Gaza_Synagogue_Mosaic,_6th_century_CE" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://cojs.org/cojswiki/Gaza_Synagogue_Mosaic,_6th_century_CE</a></div>
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It is also important that Matt Hill should recognise that under the Oslo Accords there was supposed to be free access to – and conservation of – all sites of religious significance to Jews located in areas A&B. Those conditions are not upheld and yet we have not heard a peep from the ‘international community’.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:10 am</td></tr>
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Its been said above “What is the point of this post?” So, I will repeat what others have said.</div>
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The story is “Palestinians fail to look after heritage antiquity”. Since UNESCO could have identified this many years ago then what has the recent membership of the Palestinians actually got to do with the necessity to have done it previously? The Global Heritage fund has already alerted us to its state.</div>
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What has the red-herring of USA defunding of UNESCO got to do with the story? If countries had been concerned at the lack of Palestinian interest in antiquities they could/should have spoken out by now.</div>
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Why does the West seem to care more about the site than the Arabs and Muslims who’s heritage it is? Since its a site of importance to Muslims then why haven’t Arab countries taken an interest? Why hasn’t Turkey said something. After all it wishes to be a major Islamic influence in the Middle East and at one time Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire. A fact that causes Matt Hill’s girlfriend to giggle like a five-year old! Wouldn’t they have just a little bit of interest in the plight of an Islamic antiquity in an area they not only ruled but under the influence of the Palestinians who they support?</div>
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Wouldn’t ANY Muslim country wish to maintain its heritage sites? Why is it that its the West expected to take interest?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 8:15 am</td></tr>
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<i>” Jerusalem is considered by Palestinians their capital city… It was true long before the Six-Day War…”</i></div>
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<i>References?</i></div>
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I’m guessing that this ridiculous claim comes from Jordan’s illegal invasion of Palestine and capturing Jerusalem in 1948. Subsequently they were kicked out in 1967 and Jerusalem reverted back to Jewish control. After all, it is Israel’s capital. Far longer than any Arab claim Jews have always ended prayers with “Next year in Jerusalem”. Arab Muslim claims are based on a fairy story.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:06 am</td></tr>
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Let’s remember that Matt Hill completely ignored the issue of Res 242 when he previously commented that Israel refused to define its borders. If someone doesn’t even grasp the most fundamental and basic fact about the I/P conflict then what credibility does he have as a commentator? What a household! A g/f who laughs at the idea that The Ottoman Empire ever had anything to do with “Palestine” or that Turkey might show an interest in a site of Islamic antiquity. Birds of a feather, eh?</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:22 am</td></tr>
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<i>Jerusalem is considered by Palestinians their capital city. That isn’t some innovative notion, cynically invented to annoy Jews. It was true long before the Six-Day War.</i></div>
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Well Matt how long ago was “long before”?</div>
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There were no such people as “Palestinians” in the definition of the current people called “Palestinians” at any time prior to the 1967 war. “Palestinians” can only come about by having a place called “Palestine” and that happened in 1922.</div>
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Wikipedia:</div>
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The history of a distinct Palestinian national identity is a disputed issue amongst scholars.[23] According to legal historian Assaf Likhovski, the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the twentieth century</div>
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The term “Palestinians” referred to Arabs and Jews in Palestine until 1948 when the Jews of Palestine (aka “Palestinians”) became Israelis. You can “regard” Jerusalem as your capital but does history and legality support it. Unless you are a definable legally recognised state and entity you cannot have a capital city. Capital of what?</div>
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The current Palestinians have their capital in (Ramallah or Nablus – not sure which). Its where you go to meet the Palestinians and their seat of power and legislature.</div>
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The claims of the current Palestinians are based on religion and they hate the idea that Al Aqsa is in Israeli territory. Well tough! They are free to worship there, until they start stoning and rioting again.</div>
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Jerusalem is NOT the capital city of a Palestinian State and never will be.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Brownie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:39 am</td></tr>
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<i>Let’s remember that Matt Hill completely ignored the issue of Res 242 when he previously commented that Israel refused to define its borders. If someone doesn’t even grasp the most fundamental and basic fact about the I/P conflict then what credibility does he have as a commentator?</i></div>
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This is abject nonsense. Nowhere does Matt say or imply anything that ignores the reality that a final resolution on borders will be the result of negotiation as called for in res.242. Why do you continue too insist otherwise?</div>
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The unfinished business of res.242 does not preclude Israel from stating a claim, which is why earlier comparisons to Kashmir, Cyprus and Ireland in earlier threads won’t wash. Indeed, the very fact Israel refuses to articulate an unequivocal territorial claim is entirely unhelpful and, in my view, deliberately so.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Barad</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 9:49 am</td></tr>
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Barad,</div>
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“I don’t think Jonathan cook is in any way comparable to Hitler, and I think it’s shameful of you to resort to such analogies so easily. I do not believe Jonathan cook has killed six million Jews, though as always I am ready to change my view if you can provide evidence to the contrary.”</div>
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Matt, forgive me for finding you dim in your response but I was not comparing Cook to Hitler, I was commenting on your willingness to turn a blind eye to very unpleasant opinions because you are fascinated with the subject matter or you find you agree with some of what Cook has to say. Seriously, have you just started an undergrad course of some kind?</div>
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More generally, non-Jews and non-Arabs with no connection to I-P make me extremely suspicious, especially when you appear both strident and pretty ignorant of the situation, which has nothing to do with you in any event (funny how white, left wing activists are often solely concerned with IP but usually no other conflict in the world-I wonder why that is?). Still, yay Palestine, hate those Zionazis etc…</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 10:00 am</td></tr>
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The opprobrium heaped on Matt for what ought to have been viewed as a pretty uncontroversial article is a shameful indictment of this blog. I realise that 90% of the people here seem only to want to write about and discuss one issue (more’s the pity), but we ought to be able to find room for more than one perspective.</div>
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The bad faith argumentation form DCook, Barad and that fucking moron Peter is to be expected, but there are other more lucid and less batshit-crazy commenters (and authors) who ought to know better.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 10:13 am</td></tr>
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Barad – Matt has family connections with Israel and spends half the year there. I really don’t think ’strident’ is the adjective which first comes to mind to describe him, and your last sentence seems completely unearned by his post. I disagree with some of Matt’s views, and agree with some of the criticisms raised here. I’ve been persuaded to adjust my own views and preconceptions about some of these issues myself through following HP of course.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sue R</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 10:42 am</td></tr>
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No, but, yeah, but…I appreciate Matt’s anxiety about the destruction of a beautiful work of art, but I think he reveals a lot of confusion. He remarks ‘how would Londoners feel if London was taken over by foriegners?’. Maybe it’s me, but London doesn’t have that sort of emotional appeal to the British. It is not a case of geography, more of culture. He compounds that with remarks about the Vatican. Well, hello, Christendom is not solely teh Catholic church, and many sacred sites for the various types of Christain are dotted around the world. So, that strieks me as fallacious reasoning. Just admit, Matt, that for Palestinians, old bricks and mortar are not important. Why, in Mecca, sites associated with Mohammed have been built over, ostenbily on the grounds that they don’t want to encourge idolatry, but surprisingly, they are valuable real estate.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Barad</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 10:47 am</td></tr>
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Sarah, the only family connections I remember reading about were an old Palestinian girlfriend. I absolutely stand by my last paragraph-that is my experience of such people and I am sick to death of them.</div>
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And the tedious Brownie is still sulking at me because I do not hero-worship Blair or think he was did much other than harm to the UK, so everything I say on any subject is “batshit crazy”.</div>
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Feel absolutely free to change your own opinions, as I do if properly persuaded but I am not in this case.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Barad</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 10:50 am</td></tr>
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“He remarks ‘how would Londoners feel if London was taken over by foriegners?’.”</div>
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Clearly he hasn’t been to London lately…</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarah AB</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 11:16 am</td></tr>
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Barad – he really does know Israel very well – which is not the same as knowing all the history, but does explain his interest. I entirely sympathise with your irritation at a certain sort of ‘pro-Palestinian’ – it was people like that who made me start seeking out more info because they seemed so objectionable. Even though I (and some of you much more so than me) don’t see quite eye to eye with Matt, I think he’s completely different from that type, and his starting point seems to be a genuine concern for both Israelis and Palestinians – which seems terribly basic, but is not something I’m often aware of in Palestinian advocacy. For example I came acrross someone saying something like ‘it is up the Palestinians to decide their destiny’ WRT the one state/two state question – but there was no indication that person had the slightest interest in what Israelis might think – s/he seemed terribly concerned about Palestinian self-determination but not at all about Jewish/Israeli self-determination.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Micha</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 11:31 am</td></tr>
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“The unfinished business of res.242 does not preclude Israel from stating a claim, which is why earlier comparisons to Kashmir, Cyprus and Ireland in earlier threads won’t wash. Indeed, the very fact Israel refuses to articulate an unequivocal territorial claim is entirely unhelpful and, in my view, deliberately so.”</div>
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If Israel had made an unequivocal claim to anything less than the exact pre-67 borders, it would have been accused of unilaterally trying to impose its will and conquer part of the “Palestinian/Arab” lands. This would have been used as proof that Israel doesn’t want peace even if the offer they made included a willingness to establish a Palestinian state on most of the 67 ocupied land.</div>
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Conversely, if Israel made an unequivocal claim that followed the pre-67 borders exactly, then it would have given up — before negotiation and with nothing in return — on the diplomatic gain the had in 242, which allowed flexibility on the issue of borders. And they would have given up on all it’s border related concerns, namely Jerusalem, security and settlement blocks: all of the issues where it needs negotiating flexibility with relation to the pre-67 borders.</div>
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So it is against Israel interest to commit to any borders before negotiations since it would be used against it either way without giving Israel any benefits.</div>
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At best what Israel could (and in my opinion should) do, would be to say something like “based n the 67 borders.” But you can be sure that a statement like that would gain Israel only very little good will from anybody — certainly not from the Palestinians themselves.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://lafu-sion.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Fabian ben Israel</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 11:32 am</td></tr>
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I read the post (did not read who wrote it), didn’t think that it was anti-Israeli. The only thing that was strange was how come a Jew (I assumed the writer was an Israeli Jew) was free to roam abandoned places near Jericho, where he could run the risk of being kidnapped or killed by Palestinians.</div>
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Then I read “Matt Hill” and suddenly I saw the light. The writer was a foreigner and he enjoys pleasures that are denied to Israeli Jews. Ok.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Dcook</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 11:36 am</td></tr>
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<i>basic fact about the I/P conflict then what credibility does he have as a commentator?</i></div>
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<i>This is abject nonsense. Nowhere does Matt say or imply anything that ignores the reality that a final resolution on borders will be the result of negotiation as called for in res.242. Why do you continue too insist otherwise?</i></div>
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Because he asserted that Israel has not/will not declare its borders in his previous (crap) thread. That means he completely ignored Res 242 preventing Israel to agreeing a border unless its linked to peace and security by discussion with the Palestinians. SInce the Palestinians refuse to discuss it then the borders can’t be created.</div>
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Perhaps you should try and be a bit smarter rather than shooting from the lip.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Barad</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 11:51 am</td></tr>
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Sarah, I do hear your points. I will confess to (very often) a gut response these days to anti-Israeli sentiments and people, although I hate to say it seems justified more often than not.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Barad</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 11:59 am</td></tr>
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I might add Sarah that reading that the Cave of the Partiachs and Temple Mount are considered by the author as indisputably Arab Muslim sites (through ignorance or deceit ignoring their far longer Jewish significance before the Arab conquest and the invention of Islam) are just the sort of thing to produce aforesaid gut reaction.</div>
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Knowing that the supposedly moderate PA as well as Hamas, IJ et al deny any Jewish connection whatsoever to the land and Islamize or erase historic Jewish sites accordingly, makes such deceptive statements of false fact by Western Palestinian cheerleaders doubly galling.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Sarka</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 1:13 pm</td></tr>
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Thanks Matt for the full link. Quite obviously my tile is based on the Hisham design…</div>
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On the status of Jerusalem, you could do worse than to read the very recently published and mainly rave-reviewed history of Jerusalem by Sebag-Montefiore. This isn’t a polemical work about IP, but an amazingly interesting and engaging total history, full of vignettes, with plenty of sympathy for Palestinians for you to approve of…</div>
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You may have already read it, but I doubt that – given your rather simplistic notion of its status for Palestinians as capital. Of course it was (at some times but not others) important as symbol for Arabs (Muslim and Christian) local and in the wider area. It was sometimes (not always by any means) a focus of regional and wider power politics. But the idea of it as some traditional national “capital” for a “Palestinian people” ( comparable, for example – to the historic feeling for Prague as national capital that Czechs have had for centuries) is a retro creation associated with the emergence of the idea of a distinctive (Arab) Palestinian nation as a counter to Zionist ideas.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 1:14 pm</td></tr>
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Hello all,</div>
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I’m back to reply to as many comments as possible. Sorry if it takes a while – I’m trying to work at the same time. Plus I’m writing on a phone, so apologies for the inevitable typos.</div>
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One quick point that touches on what Nate and mettaculture said above, but has a general application too. Apparently I failed to address some good points Nate made, instead replying defensively or sarcastically. Apologies for that. But nate’s post started with ‘I dont know why you’re allowed to write here’ and ended with ‘I can’t understand such rubbish / what is your point?’ now I’m sorry if there was some real gold in between those comments but I guess I didn’t feel like sifting through the ad hominem to find his good points. I think I contribute quite a bit below the line, and I even reply to posts that stray a long way from the topic and civility. Sorry if I don’t reply to every one. I notice there’s this idea I’ve been evading some point about UN res. 242 – if someone will be good enough to make that point again, in plain terms – perhaps in the form of a proposition which I’ll then agree or disagree with – I’d be grateful.</div>
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One more general comment. I realise that, because of some of my other stated views (which I don’t retract) there’s this idea that I’m some sort of raving pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel nutcase out there. A lot of the criticisms directed at me are expressed as comments about ‘your kind of person’. I’d just like to briefly explain why I think this is a misconception.</div>
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Yes, I have all kinds of views that I’m sure most HP readers strongly reject. I also have several views which most pro-Palestinian campaigners hate. (for instance, I don’t believe in the ‘right of return’ for the so-called ‘refugees’; also, I don’t see why the Palestinians shouldn’t agree to recognise Israel as a ‘Jewish state’, so long as this doesn’t prejudice the equality of non-Jewish Israelis.) that’s why David T, one of this site’s editors, has said I’m really a ‘liberal Zionist’ – and he’s not the first to say so. I don’t use that term myself, but I don’t strongly reject it either.</div>
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The reason i perhaps show my more pro-Palestinian side at times here is because I want to have a debate. I also write for Liberal Conspiracy, and I recently got sick of preaching to the choir, as it were. I could come on HP and preach about how many of the so-called Palestinian refugees arent really refugees at all, but grandchildren of the original refugees who are being denied their rights by Arab governments using them as a human reproach to Israel, and talk about how disgusting that is. But everyone would just agree, which would be boring (although at this point I wouldn’t be surprise if it was somehow interpreted as a foaming attack on Israel).</div>
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So in my desire to provoke debate, I’ve evidently been cast as a certain kind of person. I don’t deny I support Palestinian statehood in very strong terms, but you’re mistaken if you think I’m a stereotypical pro-Palestinian activist. I’m not and won’t claim I agree with everything, or even most things, the average HP readers thinks. But you might be surprised by how much we agree on. If you think I wish any harm to Israel or its civilians, bear in mind my parents are Israeli civilians – and so am I, for much of the year.</div>
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And finally: this really is a post about the PA’s scandalous neglect of a cultural treasure. Those who think I’ve programmed an attack on Israel into it are giving me credit for more subtlety than I possess, alas.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 1:21 pm</td></tr>
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Sarka,</div>
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I have read the Simon Sebag Montefieore book, and yes, you’re right – I should qualify my claim about Jerusalem. It has always been considered the main religious site in what we would call historic Palestine or greater Israel by its Arab inhabitants. It was not always the ‘capital’ in the modern sense – for instance, many would argue Jaffa was the intellectual and cultural centre of pre-48 Palestine. And I certainly don’t deny its pre-eminence for Jews, and if I’m not mistaken Jews became a majority there at some point in the 19th C. It’s probably, for these reasons nd others, the most difficult issue to solve in any future peace deal.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 1:34 pm</td></tr>
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Mettaculture,</div>
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I hope my long reply above answered some of your points in your long post, above. Yes, I realise many of my views would count me out of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, and, believe me, I have a lot of contempt for lit of people in those groups. One of these days I’ll write an article lambasting them for thir inflexibility, parochialism, their idealisation of the ‘oppressed’, their tolerance for anti-semitism, and the way they sometimes harm the Palestinian cause by appearing unreasonable, strident and insensitive. But I’ll probably find a pro-Palestinian site to post it at.</div>
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Yes, I have a pretty good idea of the Arab/Palestinian milieu. I spend much of each yer living in Nazareth.</div>
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I understand I hour expect an interrogation of my fundamental values and worldview, and how they relate to my more specific views. Fundamentally I’m an enlightenment rationalist, humanist, liberal, social democratic, feminist, egalitarian, secularist atheist.</div>
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You make a lot of good points, including your criticisms of me, so thanks.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 1:35 pm</td></tr>
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Sorry, the predictive text on this machine sometimes comes up with some weird formulations! Hope you can understand my point.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Micha</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 1:37 pm</td></tr>
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“[Jerusalem] It’s probably, for these reasons nd others, the most difficult issue to solve in any future peace deal.”</div>
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Not really. The Jerusalem issue is completely one of trust and goodwill. If there was trust and goodwill then the Israelis and Palestinians would find some way to share custody of all the historical/religious sites that would protect all of them and respect the religious sensibilities of both sides. But since it serves the interest of many to turn Jerusalem into a contentious religious rallying point, it becomes a difficulty.</div>
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The most difficult issue to solve is the refugees, materially, ideologically and diplomatically.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 1:41 pm</td></tr>
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Penny,</div>
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Where did you send me these links? Thanks, I will follow them and respond when I’m able to.</div>
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But I don’t believe the clock should be set back to 1947 or even pre-1967. Unfortunately it’s hard for me to link on this device but google ‘Palestinian proposal Annapolis 2008′ and compare it to the Israeli proposal. I think a resolution will fall somewhere between those positions (though I recognise there are other issues, like refugees and Jerusalem).</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 1:43 pm</td></tr>
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Sarah AB,</div>
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I hope you don’t mind if I follow up those stories later. I’ll post a full reply, perhaps on my blog where you originally posted them. Sorry for the delay.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:02 pm</td></tr>
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Israeli nurse,</div>
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Thanks for that interesting post. Yes, I understand your implication, which is that throughout the Arab world there’s a tendency to neglect cultural sites, to use archaeology and history as a political weapon, so Hisham’s Palace is a symptom of a wider problem. I don’t disagree with that at all – unfortunately there is a major strain of parochialism in Arab culture, which I hope is changing slowly due to the Arab Spring and the Internet (though I also recognise the danger that things may be going in the opposite direction). Yes, Israel is better at preserving cultural sites, including non-Jewish ones.</div>
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As a caveat though, I must also point out that sprawl uses archaeology as a political weapon at times too. On my visit to Jericho, which as you know has many incredible historical and cultural sites of interest, I also visited Qumran, here the DeadbSea Scrolls were discovered. Before entering the site, you’re invited to watch a video about the history of the site. Now Qumran is under Israeli jurisdiction. The video we were shown was almost pure jingoistic propaganda: it spent much more time insisting that the site and environs were a Jewish area than telling us anything of historical value. By contrast, a similar video at Hisham’s Palace was totally non-political and very informative.</div>
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I don’t want to draw too much conclusion from this point, except to say both sides in this debate are prone to use history as a politicl tool.</div>
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As for your point (and Fabian Ben Israel’s) about Israelis not being allowed to visit these sites, I think I’m right in saying that is a provision of one of the renegotiations of the Oslo Accords. It’s not true that an Israeli would be lynched in Jericho! The town used to be a resort for pleasure-seeking Israelis before the aforementioned provision, and everyone I spoke to in Jericho told me how th town is suffering from the LACK of Israeli tourism, and how they’re desperate for the Israelis to be allowed back! The town used to have a huge casino that’s been closed since Israelis can no longer come and spend their money there. Do you agree with me that a way must be found for arabs and Jews to have full access to all areas of the West Bank?</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:04 pm</td></tr>
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*sprawl = Israel. Damn predictive text!</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Brownie</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:10 pm</td></tr>
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<i>That means he completely ignored Res 242 preventing Israel to agreeing a border unless its linked to peace and security by discussion with the Palestinians.</i></div>
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He “ignored” no such thing because he did not contend that Israel could or should be agreeing borders that are not linked to peace and security. What is more – unless you are Peter under a different moniker – you *must* know this.</div>
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You keep using res.242 as reason why Israel must continue to deny the world any insight into what she thinks her territorial spread should like. That’s bogus in itself, but to pretend that anyone asking for Israel to state a position is therefore ignorant of res.242 displays the very ignorance that you are none too shy ascribing to others.</div>
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You could argue (per Micha) that doing so is not in Israel’s best interest, but this is an entirely different argument to claims that 242 precludes the possibility of Israel stating a position.</div>
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<i>Perhaps you should try and be a bit smarter rather than shooting from the lip.</i></div>
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Dcook, your problem is that as well as believing you are about seven times smarter than you really are, you also think anyone disagreeing with you is somehow dim. Your repeated claim that interlocutors who pick up on your misunderstandings are lacking in grey matter is quickly becoming your defining characteristic. It means you come across as a boorish oaf. I can’t believe you are like this in real life. Are you?</div>
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Micha,</div>
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I anticipated this response and I do have a little sympathy for it. I have no doubt that there are some who will use any stated claim by Israel (short of handing the PA everything they demand) as evidence of preconditions, intransigence, etc., but I still think that on balance it would help rather than hinder a peace process to have some firm understanding of the starting point of all parties concerned, including Israel’s opening gambit on borders.</div>
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As stated previously, I also believe that it suits this particular Israeli administration down to the ground to leave border claims undefined for reasons that have nothing to do with the (partly) justifiable concerns you cite and are, unfortunately, all too obvious.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:15 pm</td></tr>
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Micha,</div>
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I think we coul have an interesting debate about that. I’ve always felt the refugee issue is easy to solve. No right of return to Israel. Full right of return to the Palestinian state. Substantial compensation. (How much do you think the US, UN, EU etc would NOT pay to make this issue go away?) Plus a symbolic number, in the tens of thousands, of the original refugees allowed to return to effect family reunions. (Cynical as this may sound, these refugees will be too old to start families and alter Israel’s demographic balance.)</div>
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Now that is a solution Israel could live with. Thevquestion is, could the Palestinians? Well, we know moderate Palestinian opinion-makers have been promoting this solution for years – look up Sari Nusseibeh (a hero of mine). As for the PA, we know it has accepted this outcome from the leaked ‘Palestine Papers’. And, perhaps most surprisingly, polls have shown that a majority of the refugees would also accept this solution. Yes, there are polls and polls. But I think we have reason to be optimistic that the more moderate inclinations of people will win out IF a peace deal is put in front of them, backed by the world, and negotiated by a credible leader.</div>
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I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on this. I may be wrong,mof course.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Michael Rabins</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:18 pm</td></tr>
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More news on the how the culturally sensitive Palestinians are protecting the archaeology of Jewrusalem.</div>
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<a href="http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=246012" rel="nofollow" style="color: #d70606;">http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=246012</a></div>
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What a pathetic bunch. But then we know that.</div>
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As for Matt, well you gotta say the boy does hang in there. You know, I imagine some of his best friends really are Jews (and not just Norman Finklestein, whom he admires).</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:20 pm</td></tr>
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Brownie,</div>
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Thanks for your comments. Even if we disagree on many things (which we probably do), it’s a relief to find someone who seems eminently sane and reasonable here, and willing to take people on in the face of howling opprobrium.</div>
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And, yes, I wouldn’t normally be so rude, but Dcook overestimates his intelligence to an absurd degree. It’s stupefying. And I don’t mind saying that some of my harshest critics here – like Alan A – are obviously intelligent.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b>Micha</b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:25 pm</td></tr>
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“still think that on balance it would help rather than hinder a peace process to have some firm understanding of the starting point of all parties concerned, including Israel’s opening gambit on borders.”</div>
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If Israel gave any opening gambit on borders that was not complete capitulation to Palestinian demands, then it would reduce it’s flexibility to negotiate while gaining nothing in return.</div>
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“I also believe that it suits this particular Israeli administration down to the ground to leave border claims undefined for reasons that have nothing to do with the (partly) justifiable concerns you cite and are, unfortunately, all too obvious.”</div>
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Yet even this government’s stated position is that there will be a Palestinian state in the West Bank. So even a right wing Israel is talking in terms of withdrawal. The question is only one of quantity. Moreover, we also know that both Livni’s party and Labor have made pretty extensive offers as far as the amount of territory is concerned. So it should be pretty clear what the intentions of Israel are. So what’s the benefit of putting anything more at the table at this stage, except that the Palestinians will pocket that offer while saying that it is not enough and proves Israeli does not want peace.</div>
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“It’s not true that an Israeli would be lynched in Jericho!”</div>
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It would be extremely irresponsible for any Israeli to put that theory to the test unless he is coming as part of a left-wing delegation.</div>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:27 pm</td></tr>
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Michael Rabins,</div>
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You seem to be implying I’m an anti-Semite. I’d be grateful if you would state plainly that you think I’m racist towards Jews, or make clear that you don’t think that.</div>
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I’ve posted two public pieces about Finkelstein, both of them critical (I.e. they were framed as criticisms, they didn’t just include criticisms). But some of his scholarship is excllent. If you have any reason to gainsay, for instance, his demolition job on Joan Peters – which destroyed the reputation of a widely praised author and book – there are many scholarly journals waiting for your contribution.</div>
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You won’t find a single sentence where I’ve praised some of Finkelstein’s more extreme views – on the contrary, in fact.</div>
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<tr><td style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"><b><a href="http://themuddleeast.blogspot.com/" style="color: #d70606;">Matt Hill</a></b></td><td> </td><td style="line-height: 0px;" valign="bottom"><img border="0" src="http://hurryupharry.org/wp-content/themes/hp-modernist/images/comment-stem.gif" style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 0px;" /></td></tr>
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</td><td align="right" style="padding-bottom: 8px;" valign="bottom"> 22 November 2011, 2:36 pm</td></tr>
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Barad,</div>
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I’m glad you’ve said you’ll retract your view if I prove it wrong. So your claim that I have no connection to Israel is wrong. My parents live there. I live there much of the time. I won’t start telling you about all my friends and links on both sides. Will you admit now you were wrong?</div>
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You were also wrong when you said I haven’t been to London lately if I don’t think it’s been taken over by foreigners. Now that IS racist, and I don’t mind saying so. In fact, it slightly disgusts me, since my girlfriend – with whom I live, in London, you ignorant racist fucking cunt – is of Indian descent.</div>
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So you were wrong on two counts. I live in both Israel and london. No, it has not been taken over by foreigners, you moron. And if you think you’re not a racist cunt, you’re wrong on three counts. I’ll only reply to you again if you retract or explain your comments.</div>
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</div>levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-87027173633592515842011-04-08T00:58:00.007+01:002011-04-09T08:51:48.402+01:00Bob from Brockley BlogStrange goings on at the self-styled anti-totalitarian left blog called <a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/">Bob from Brockley</a>. See the last comment in the thread responding to the penultimate one from someone calling himself, Modernity Blog. Now you see it? <a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html">Now you don't.</a> It's late now, I'll straighten out the paragraphs etc another time.<br />
<br />
UPDATE: Ok, my last comment is now in place (after, I think, 6 attempts) plus two more from the man himself.. I'll leave this in place in case it disappears again.<br />
<br />
UPDATE II: I am still getting lots of abuse from Modernity Blog over not much that I can actually discern but I have tried to respond to his points. See bottom of the thread. But my latest comment keeps appearing on then disappearing from the thread. I noticed that the last time I tried posting the word verification was "losit" so I'll copy that below another of my attempts. I think it's been six again. To be fair to the blogger, "Bob", it could be a glitch on his site. On the other, Modernity Blog does need protecting from embarrassing himself.<br />
<br />
<br />
<h2 class="date-header" style="color: #997755; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, 'Palatino Linotype', Palatino, serif; font-size: 13px; font: normal normal normal 16px/normal Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;">Thursday, March 24, 2011</h2><div class="date-posts" style="color: #333333; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, 'Palatino Linotype', Palatino, serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 18px;"><div class="post-outer" style="-webkit-box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.0976563) 0px 0px 0px; background-attachment: scroll; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; background-image: url(http://www.blogblog.com/1kt/watermark/post_background_birds.png); background-origin: initial; background-position: 0% 0%; background-repeat: repeat repeat; border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 187, 153); border-bottom-style: dotted; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 187, 153); border-left-style: dotted; border-left-width: 1px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 187, 153); border-right-style: dotted; border-right-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 187, 153); border-top-style: dotted; border-top-width: 1px; box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.0976563) 0px 0px 0px; margin-bottom: 25px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 15px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; padding-top: 15px;"><div class="post hentry" style="min-height: 0px; position: relative;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="25029244376616069"></a><br />
<h3 class="post-title entry-title" style="font: normal normal normal 30px/normal Georgia, Utopia, 'Palatino Linotype', Palatino, serif; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px; position: relative;">The Guardian and Libya</h3><div class="post-header" style="color: #997755; line-height: 1.6; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><div class="post-header-line-1"></div></div><div class="post-body entry-content" id="post-body-25029244376616069" style="font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.5; position: relative; width: 588px;">I've nearly ploughed my way through yesterday's <i>Guardian</i>. Five observations:<br />
<br />
1. <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/22/libya-downed-airmen-rescue" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">The front page story on American forces shooting at pro-rebel villagers when rescuing downed airmen</a>: I felt that the paper gave this undue weight, compared to all the other stories (although the web edition doesn't give it a very prominent place). I am not a soldier, and cannot pass judgement on the decisions made under conditions I can only imagine - but this seems like a grave blunder. More than that, it seems to me that there have been far too many times (in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and now in Libya) when US forces turn their guns on civilians on the side they are meant to be protecting, and this must tell us something worrying about American military culture. And this is why it is hard for me to be unqualified in my support of the intervention. I'd like to think I'm wrong.<br />
<br />
2. <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/simontisdall" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Simon Tisdalls's "world briefings"</a>: Is it just me, or are these flimsy pieces more or less devoid of facts? As far as I can tell, the Guardian simply employs him to give a veneer of facticity to empty liberal platitudes.<br />
<br />
3. <a href="http://shirazsocialist.wordpress.com/2011/03/22/the-guardians-soft-stalinism/" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Soft Stalinists and objective pro-fascists</a>: The sheer quantity of material the Guardian publishes by tankies-posing-as-peaceniks like Andrew Murray and Seamus Milne is unbelievable.<br />
<br />
4. <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/22/case-for-intervention-still-strong" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Jonathan Freedland's very balanced and thoughtful piece on liberal interventionism</a> was excellent, and against the tone of most of the sub-editorialising.<br />
<br />
5. The letters pages: reveal that Guardian readers might dissent from the anti-interventionist line on Libya to quite a degree, despite the prevalence of lite-Milneism.<br />
<br />
Oh, and if anyone tells you to read <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/21/kosovo-template-for-disaster-libya" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">David Gibbs' piece comparing Libya to Kosovo</a>, tell them to read <a href="http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/2010/12/24/first-check-their-sources-on-david-n-gibbs-and-shoddy-scholarship/" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">this </a>and <a href="http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/2011/01/05/first-check-their-sources-2-the-myth-that-most-of-bosnia-was-owned-by-the-serbs-before-the-war/" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">this </a>and <a href="http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/first-check-their-sources-3-the-myth-that-germany-encouraged-croatia-to-secede-from-yugoslavia/" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">this</a>.<br />
<br />
Nothing to do with the Guardian, I composed a post in my head about Nicolas Sarkozy, entitled "Islamophobia at home, Arabophilia abroad", but I'm unlikely to type it, so I thought I'd just share the title.<br />
<div style="clear: both;"></div></div><div class="post-footer" style="border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; color: #997755; line-height: 1.6; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 10px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-top: 10px;"><div class="post-footer-line post-footer-line-1"><span class="post-author vcard">Posted by <span class="fn">bob</span> </span><span class="post-timestamp">at <a class="timestamp-link" href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html" rel="bookmark" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="permanent link"><abbr class="published" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial;" title="2011-03-24T18:06:00Z">6:06 PM</abbr></a> </span><span class="post-comment-link" style="padding-left: 1em;"></span><span class="post-backlinks post-comment-link" style="padding-left: 1em;"></span><br />
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<h4 style="font: normal normal normal 30px/normal Georgia, Utopia, 'Palatino Linotype', Palatino, serif; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 1em; position: relative;">119 comments:</h4><div id="Blog1_comments-block-wrapper"><br />
<dl class="avatar-comment-indent" id="comments-block" style="margin-left: 45px; position: relative;"><dt class="comment-author " id="c6371006977271769870" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: initial; border-top-style: none; border-top-width: initial; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 0px;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6371006977271769870"></a><div class="avatar-image-container vcard" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671" id="av-0-17410387006098326671" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" class="delayLoad" height="35" longdesc="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEisK1__9n0K26QHfoBSuaibr_AlPabXIETGLLsQ43-wg84v1I8-caN-63izfg-ywhK6AQZOv_lUR_Rgvm8dZqy5Ak5CuPNs1wuVQsOPhuWbDODVG89N_Kk0zDY-IuloHfnXxB3x/s45/jim+canvassing.jpg" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEisK1__9n0K26QHfoBSuaibr_AlPabXIETGLLsQ43-wg84v1I8-caN-63izfg-ywhK6AQZOv_lUR_Rgvm8dZqy5Ak5CuPNs1wuVQsOPhuWbDODVG89N_Kk0zDY-IuloHfnXxB3x/s45/jim+canvassing.jpg" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 1px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 1px; border-width: initial; float: right; position: relative;" title="Jim Jepps" width="35" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Jim Jepps</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6371006977271769870" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">It's not just you, Tisdall's stuff is woeful a lot of the time - yet he seems to be given some sort of priveled place in the paper. I don't mind opinions that differ from mine but I do mind lack of evidence or basic journalistic standards.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301004693821#c6371006977271769870" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">24 March, 2011 22:11</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c8658568238179282974" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c8658568238179282974"></a><div class="avatar-image-container vcard" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/03503738414917449549" id="av-1-03503738414917449549" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" class="delayLoad" height="35" longdesc="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgfP6mhWcehbAs30skES8Mx7WYlvXODzxqjBLemtaeH0Je_uIX5RuZKx1oA3k9_1yo_1tIHRqs6cCfx3naLD155XL1Kz9ngkQzUNBmkXsB_puZeudtX1tfBwC3abDcVBTM7uYxxPQ/s45/deerhead.jpg" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgfP6mhWcehbAs30skES8Mx7WYlvXODzxqjBLemtaeH0Je_uIX5RuZKx1oA3k9_1yo_1tIHRqs6cCfx3naLD155XL1Kz9ngkQzUNBmkXsB_puZeudtX1tfBwC3abDcVBTM7uYxxPQ/s45/deerhead.jpg" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 1px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 1px; border-width: initial; float: right; position: relative;" title="kellie" width="35" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/03503738414917449549" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">kellie</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-8658568238179282974" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">I seem to be able to read that Sarkozy post in my head, well done, the future of blogging!</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301010851811#c8658568238179282974" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">24 March, 2011 23:54</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c4313455826822910421" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c4313455826822910421"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" title="Anonymous" width="16" /></span></div>Anonymous said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-4313455826822910421" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">If you crashed your plane in potentially hostile territory, you might not be so quick to welcome everyone running towards you with a Kalashnikov. Self-preservation kicks in pretty quickly in those situations and the adrenalin is already sky high. The situation in Libya is crazy, with virtually no information worth anything being given to us. There was going to be a bloodbath in Benghazi (the reason for starting it all) but seemingly not in any of the other towns where government forces are currently occupying rebel areas. Total fuck-up.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301013560856#c4313455826822910421" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">25 March, 2011 00:39</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c349165775686499351" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c349165775686499351"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" id="av-3-06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="ModernityBlog" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">ModernityBlog</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-349165775686499351" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Professor Gibbs is a peculiar one, not quite the specialist on the Balkans that you might believe, as he seems to gives credence to people like Diane Johnstone and Edward S. Herman. I allowed him a guest post on my blog recently, probably one of my more stupid blogging decisions. You might enjoy this, http://modernityblog.wordpress.com/?s=Gibbs</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301020062816#c349165775686499351" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">25 March, 2011 02:27</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c7997021363590608335" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c7997021363590608335"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-4-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-7997021363590608335" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Anonymous - the point was that they did not go down in hostile territory, but in rebel territory. And it is not the people who crashed who opened fire (the people who crashed were injured, and were rescued and treated well by the rebels). The shooting was done by those who were sent to get them. We can't really know what happened, and on a personal level I wouldn't judge what they did, but it's concerning. I'm not sure what you mean about bloodbaths.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301043214857#c7997021363590608335" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">25 March, 2011 08:53</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c8271681123051877798" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c8271681123051877798"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" title="skidmarx" width="16" /></span></div>skidmarx said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-8271681123051877798" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">1.Undue weight - grave blunder : if the latter is the case, the former is unlikely. I'm reminded of a poster on HP this week complaining that the BBC hadn't given sufficient weight to Hamas rockets that had killed nobody (perhaps the headline should have been "Small rocket attack in Israel - none killed). Complaining about the weight given to stories without any solid stats to show bias seems to show a major observation bias. 2. You and Jim, and anyone who thinks the Guardian is a resurrected Daily Worker. Tisdall sets out a story that a number of states think Libyan intervention isn't the bees knees, with evidence. 3. When the tankies were running CND, I didn't dispute that they were actual peaceniks, and see no reason to do so now. 4.Is it just me or is this more or less devoid of facts? Ken McLeod had this to say about one of the few facts, the Gadaffi quote: <i>On a more serious note, it's impressive to see how Gadaffi's offer of an amnesty to rebels who lay down their arms, combined with a warning of a 'house to house, room to room' search for, and no mercy to, those who don't, has been spun into a threat to massacre the people of Benghazi. Maybe the amnesty offer was insincere, but that's not what's being said. Instead, we get Jonathan Freedland in the Guardian saying: Colonel Gaddafi threatened to attack the rebel city of Benghazi with "no mercy, no pity," adding in chilling words, "We will come. House by house, room by room." If those nations with the power to stop these pre-announced killings had stood aside, they would have been morally culpable. Benghazi was set to become another Srebrenica – and those that did nothing would share the same shame. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/22/case-for-intervention-still-strong If the rebels and/or their more powerful allies were to close in on Tripoli, what would they announce to the 'Gadaffi loyalists'? No doubt that they should throw down their arms, and that anyone who didn't would be hunted down. House by house, room by room.</i> 5. I saw somewhere that Gibbs has replies to this stuff. Actually when people argued his case on Kosovo at the time I was reminded that in the late eighties Socialist Worker Review had presented a very grim picture of Serb oppression.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301052831230#c8271681123051877798" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">25 March, 2011 11:33</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c8299546362901481155" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c8299546362901481155"></a><div class="avatar-image-container vcard" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15451193630793715133" id="av-6-15451193630793715133" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" class="delayLoad" height="35" longdesc="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiSMa-imWtkMxqQ6Ml-3Nol7b4gSHNMKlv1P7uHRF1F2lPR2oVRhfS2wrp0xU5hrn3Mey6i8SLQgY8eDHZACRusoYaML3WjOgUwj-0oQLeIn5vFf3hDJBT5NNqFhK_6DPCxabq4Vg/s45/sr.jpg" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiSMa-imWtkMxqQ6Ml-3Nol7b4gSHNMKlv1P7uHRF1F2lPR2oVRhfS2wrp0xU5hrn3Mey6i8SLQgY8eDHZACRusoYaML3WjOgUwj-0oQLeIn5vFf3hDJBT5NNqFhK_6DPCxabq4Vg/s45/sr.jpg" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 1px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 1px; border-width: initial; float: right; position: relative;" title="socialrepublican" width="35" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15451193630793715133" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">socialrepublican</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-8299546362901481155" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Skidders So Gaddafi says something that implies massacre IF resisted thus the Rebels will do the same? A bit like some interpretations of "We are ruthless and ask no quarter from you. When our turn comes we shall not disguise our terrorism" then, Marx as bad as Metternich? Structurally you thus find yourself in the same camp as Micheal Ezra. How goes the genocide denial business anyhoo?</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301055028578#c8299546362901481155" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">25 March, 2011 12:10</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c3599216816860656856" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c3599216816860656856"></a><div class="avatar-image-container vcard" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671" id="av-7-17410387006098326671" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" class="delayLoad" height="35" longdesc="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEisK1__9n0K26QHfoBSuaibr_AlPabXIETGLLsQ43-wg84v1I8-caN-63izfg-ywhK6AQZOv_lUR_Rgvm8dZqy5Ak5CuPNs1wuVQsOPhuWbDODVG89N_Kk0zDY-IuloHfnXxB3x/s45/jim+canvassing.jpg" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEisK1__9n0K26QHfoBSuaibr_AlPabXIETGLLsQ43-wg84v1I8-caN-63izfg-ywhK6AQZOv_lUR_Rgvm8dZqy5Ak5CuPNs1wuVQsOPhuWbDODVG89N_Kk0zDY-IuloHfnXxB3x/s45/jim+canvassing.jpg" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 1px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 1px; border-width: initial; float: right; position: relative;" title="Jim Jepps" width="35" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Jim Jepps</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-3599216816860656856" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Skid: for clarification I don't think the Guardian is a resurrection of the Daily Worker (not sure whether that would be good or bad though) and I am opposed to the military intervention. I also happen to think Tisdall's standards of journalism are low and I do not understand why he seems to have such weight in the Guardian - despite the fact that on this question we agree.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301055730730#c3599216816860656856" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">25 March, 2011 12:22</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c1364590423862096813" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c1364590423862096813"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-8-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-1364590423862096813" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Bob - this post looks like a Private Eye style caricature of the Telegraph criticising The Guardian except I presume you're actually serious. Tisdall - what facts are you querying or suggesting are mere veneer? and veneer for what? liberalism? Sheesh! heaven forfend! they have to cover their liberal worldview with, er, facts. Perhaps if they used openly jingoist (woops, I mean humanitarian) platitudes they could (and maybe they would have to) dispense with the facts. Tankies? Andrew Murray and Seumas Milne? I gather Murray really is a stalinist but Milne? I really don't know now but I thought he was SWP. Freedland - you say he is <i>very</i> balanced and yet the headline alone has him supporting the intervention. In fairness I'd say he's hedging given his warning of "dangers". But his first paragraph is emotive nonsense likening geopolitics to newtonian physics and then throwing in the ludicrous idea that American troops invade a place depending on how guilty the president might be feeling about previous invasions. It's politics for children. Skid and Jim - I read <a href="http://jimjay.blogspot.com/2011/03/please-no-to-no-fly-zone-over-libya.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">The Daily (maybe) post on Libya</a>. I thought it was very good. Whilst looking for it just now, I quite enjoyed the piece on the former Israeli prez getting his comeuppance. Which is why I find it surprising, Jim, that you're not more concerned about Freedland's influence at the Guardian than you are about Tisdall's.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301068024711#c1364590423862096813" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">25 March, 2011 15:47 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=1364590423862096813" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c2927041860635749874" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c2927041860635749874"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" title="skidmarx" width="16" /></span></div>skidmarx said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-2927041860635749874" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">socialrepublican - I was going to give you as polite a response as I could up until the last bit. Then I realised it would be a waste of time. Don't be such a prat if you want a process of communication to occur. Jim Jepps - good. I haven't read Tisdall avidly enough to make a general judgement,that piece didn't seem to have the fact-free nature Bob was ascribing. In a lighthearted spirit, I point out that to complain about basic journalistic standards when you've badly failed to spell priveleged <a href="http://www.israellycool.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/pot-kettle-black.jpg" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">is...</a> Levi 9909 - Danny Alexander was pulling the "Arab League's for bombing so we must be doing the right thing about dictatorship" shit on Newsnight last night until Ken Livingstone pulled him up on it. Bob - <a href="http://rt.com/usa/news/usa-libya-yugoslavia-anniversary-war/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Russia Today</a> is also doing the "It's All Yugoslavia All Over Again".</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301071556412#c2927041860635749874" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">25 March, 2011 16:45</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c3450746268359780918" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c3450746268359780918"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" title="skidmarx" width="16" /></span></div>skidmarx said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-3450746268359780918" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">And before anyone says, yes it is "privileged".</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301071671347#c3450746268359780918" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">25 March, 2011 16:47</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c9138666460704894905" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c9138666460704894905"></a><div class="avatar-image-container vcard" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671" id="av-11-17410387006098326671" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" class="delayLoad" height="35" longdesc="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEisK1__9n0K26QHfoBSuaibr_AlPabXIETGLLsQ43-wg84v1I8-caN-63izfg-ywhK6AQZOv_lUR_Rgvm8dZqy5Ak5CuPNs1wuVQsOPhuWbDODVG89N_Kk0zDY-IuloHfnXxB3x/s45/jim+canvassing.jpg" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEisK1__9n0K26QHfoBSuaibr_AlPabXIETGLLsQ43-wg84v1I8-caN-63izfg-ywhK6AQZOv_lUR_Rgvm8dZqy5Ak5CuPNs1wuVQsOPhuWbDODVG89N_Kk0zDY-IuloHfnXxB3x/s45/jim+canvassing.jpg" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 1px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 1px; border-width: initial; float: right; position: relative;" title="Jim Jepps" width="35" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/17410387006098326671" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Jim Jepps</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-9138666460704894905" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Thankfully Tisdall has sub-editors to check his spelling and protect the public from his typos so who knows what his gramatical standards are like. One of the reasons I left school at 16 was because I was so bored of people pointing out that I can't spell and it doesn't get any more interesting even when, as in this case, it is clearly a typo. I'm sure my writing is full of them - thankfully everytime I've appeared in a national publication they have been corrected before any harm is done.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301074031690#c9138666460704894905" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">25 March, 2011 17:27</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c686735038159801785" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c686735038159801785"></a><div class="avatar-image-container vcard" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15451193630793715133" id="av-12-15451193630793715133" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" class="delayLoad" height="35" longdesc="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiSMa-imWtkMxqQ6Ml-3Nol7b4gSHNMKlv1P7uHRF1F2lPR2oVRhfS2wrp0xU5hrn3Mey6i8SLQgY8eDHZACRusoYaML3WjOgUwj-0oQLeIn5vFf3hDJBT5NNqFhK_6DPCxabq4Vg/s45/sr.jpg" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 1px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 1px; border-width: initial; float: right; position: relative;" title="socialrepublican" width="35" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15451193630793715133" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">socialrepublican</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-686735038159801785" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Skidders I've tried communication but you didn't reply to my generous offer to discuss your status. Thus I have no choice to go with my opening offer that you are a fluffer for genocide denialists. Like the butler for David Irving I suppose. You can do what the fuck you want, you remain what you are</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301116248967#c686735038159801785" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">26 March, 2011 05:10</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c3053556691279225385" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c3053556691279225385"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-13-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-3053556691279225385" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">I once left a comment at Jim's about the words I can't spell. I think privileged was one of them. Am off-line for most of the weekend - will try to reply on return.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301143430944#c3053556691279225385" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">26 March, 2011 12:43</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c8032946547513768104" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c8032946547513768104"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a href="http://www.halvinpikavippi.com/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Uusimmat Pikavipit" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.halvinpikavippi.com/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Uusimmat Pikavipit</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-8032946547513768104" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">I must say I agree with you on Simon Tisdall..</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301157540736#c8032946547513768104" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">26 March, 2011 16:39</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c7686064326900164855" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c7686064326900164855"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-15-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-7686064326900164855" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Snatching couple minutes. 1. <em>Undue weight - grave blunder : if the latter is the case, the former is unlikely.</em> When I say grave blunder, I don't mean a grave error of American strategy, or of the coalition war aims or anything like that. Rather, a grave error of individual judgement from those effecting the rescue, from what little information we have. Sure, not trying to make big claim about weight of coverage, but it seems to me this story was given prominence because it fit the editorial line rather than for its actual importance.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301169626583#c7686064326900164855" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">26 March, 2011 20:00</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c4034472813883371872" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c4034472813883371872"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-16-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-4034472813883371872" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">snatching couple more 2. On Tisdall: I did not say he veneers platitudes with facts but with facticity: he dresses up platitudes with bullet points and references to "experts" and formulaic phrases, but once you re-read them, they are empty. The experts this briefing http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/22/anglo-french-forces-libya quotes turn out to be basically bloggers, for example. There's nothing wrong with bloggers, obviously, but there's no reason the Guardian should treat us as exprts. We have no one to sub-edit us, non-one to spell check us, no one to fact check us. Hence we spell words wrong, for example. And hence no one pays us. Whereas Tisdall gets a regular salary and fills large amounts of pages and bandwidth, with pure filler. Seems wrong. More later maybe</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301215527821#c4034472813883371872" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">27 March, 2011 09:45</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c6122591593345671392" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6122591593345671392"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-17-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6122591593345671392" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">As it happens what I thought was the <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/23/libya-ceasefire-consensus-russia-china-india" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">last article he wrote</a> before your post seemed quite useful to me because we have been told that the whole world was up for this war and, simply by drawing on some online newspapers he seems to be scotching that one. Mind you, I wouldn't mind his job. But he doesn't seem to draw on any expert or blogger opinion/fact in that piece. As it happens I find his opinions a bit emotional at times, like Fisk, Of course, he was the chap who likened Israel's invasion of Jenin to 9/11 which was a major hostage to fortune.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301219610602#c6122591593345671392" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">27 March, 2011 10:53 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=6122591593345671392" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c447384977421459136" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c447384977421459136"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" title="sackcloth and ashes" width="16" /></span></div>sackcloth and ashes said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-447384977421459136" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">'Actually when people argued his case on Kosovo at the time I was reminded that in the late eighties Socialist Worker Review had presented a very grim picture of Serb oppression'. And then ten years later the SWP opposes the NATO operation which saves the Kosovar Albanians from being ethnically cleansed from their homeland. Oh, and socialrepublican, you may have already seen this but skidmark's endorsement of genocide denial can be seen here: http://shirazsocialist.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/nocide-denial-here-we-go-again/#comment-32289</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301261312568#c447384977421459136" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">27 March, 2011 22:28</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c8276730589056165022" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c8276730589056165022"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" title="skidmarx" width="16" /></span></div>skidmarx said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-8276730589056165022" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Nice to see how badly sackcloth & libel can miss the point again.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301310048097#c8276730589056165022" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">28 March, 2011 12:00</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c1241345104632967554" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c1241345104632967554"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-20-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-1241345104632967554" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">OK, back on line. 3. Tankies and peaceniks. I don't know what party if any Milne is a member or supporter of - wouldn't be surprised if it was SWP or Labour. Maybe Stalinist fellow traveller would be the better descripion of him than tankie. Certainly, he uses his column to praise Castro, Che, Chavez and the Soviet Union, alongside his less Stalinist apologias for Islamist terror organisations. As for CND/Stop the War/the Morning Star actually being peaceniks, I think the word "tankie" is a good clue as to why they're not real ones. Kate Murray infamously defended North Korean nuclear proliferation, and their response to Iran's nuclear programme is hands off. I don't believe that Murray or any of his cronies ever spoke out against Russian wars against Muslims in Chechnaya or Serbian wars against Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo. The only war that counts with them is one involving Amerikkka and/or Israel. They do nothing to stop the wars in Africa, despite them killing far more people than any of "our" wars, for example.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301317925736#c1241345104632967554" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">28 March, 2011 14:12</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c7905126388002683232" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c7905126388002683232"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-21-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-7905126388002683232" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">4. Jonathan Freedland and facts: A difference between Tisdall and Freedland is that Freedland is published on the opinion page, as a columnist or op ed writer - he's not there to give us "world briefings". A different standard should apply. However, the idea that he is being dishonest because he says Gaddafi promises a bloodbath is nonsense. Defending and trusting the Libyan regime is a new low, worthy of the Healeyites or Nick Griffin. When he claimed he would offer clemency to those who laid down arms, he was actively bombing Ajdabiyah and Misrata. On the other hand, now the rebels are advancing, is evidence emerging of them going "room by room" against Gaddafi loyalists? Of course not. Partly because the "room by room" image only works for a campaign against civilians, such as Gaddafi is carrying out, and makes no sense when the mass civilian population is on the rebel side. And partly because that is not the modus operandi of the rebel army, who are idealistic amateurs liberating their country, not trained murderers of civilians. This is also why the BBC line of questioning of NATO this morning - will NATO prevent rebel killings of civilians, as the UN resolution mandates them to do - was a red herring. If evidence emerges of large-scale revenge killings, we can discuss this again.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301318712094#c7905126388002683232" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">28 March, 2011 14:25</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c6354999434939180549" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6354999434939180549"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-22-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6354999434939180549" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">5. Gibbs. Of course he has responded to critics, including the guest post Modernity gave him. In my view, totally unconvincing. (I have no idea by the way what relevance it is that the SWP painted a grim picture of Serb oppression before the break-up of the Yugoslav state. Once again, I believe a glimmer of Third Camp decency still shone through in the 1980s.)</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301318958718#c6354999434939180549" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">28 March, 2011 14:29</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c2898274988260372310" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c2898274988260372310"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-23-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-2898274988260372310" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><em>Skid and Jim - I read The Daily (maybe) post on Libya. I thought it was very good. Whilst looking for it just now, I quite enjoyed the piece on the former Israeli prez getting his comeuppance. Which is why I find it surprising, Jim, that you're not more concerned about Freedland's influence at the Guardian than you are about Tisdall's.</em> I think that paragraph captures well the perversity of the anti-Zionist imagination. Jim has well thought out views on Libya and on Israel which are very much at odds with mine, based on his internationalist, anti-imperialist politics. He also has an assessment of the journalistic quality of some of the Guardian writers, even where this is at odds with his politics. But for Levi, the rage against Israel ought to be the first and foremost principle and he can't believe it doesn't totally control Jim's assessment of journalistic quality. In the anti-Zionist imagination, if the Guardian employs a writer who is not sufficiently critical of Israel, we ought to be concerned, and anyone who criticises Israel is told they need to disassociate themselves from the bad Jews who are too close to Israel. (What indication is there, by the way, that the bad Jew Freedland influences Guardian policy? The Guardian has been pretty solidly anti-interventionist, even if they have published a few pro-intervention articles. On the other hand, it is likely Tisdall does have some influence, as he is, according to the paper, "assistant editor of the Guardian and a foreign affairs columnist". Also by the way, I think that the Guardian has a number of impressive journalists in its foreign affairs team (to balance the terrible Tisdall and the even worse Jonathan Steele), such as Julian Borger or Ian Black, who probably share Tisdall's worldview, but are simply far better journalists.)</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301319647386#c2898274988260372310" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">28 March, 2011 14:40</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c1537007619163263344" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c1537007619163263344"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-24-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-1537007619163263344" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Final comment for now I think. <em>As it happens what I thought was the last article he wrote before your post seemed quite useful to me because we have been told that the whole world was up for this war and, simply by drawing on some online newspapers he seems to be scotching that one.</em> Who is saying the whole world is up for war? Quite obviously, Russia and China have done their best to stop the West intervening, and no-one has denied this. Germany are playing the role Chirac's France played over Iraq in 2003; possibly the British liberal classes will start to fawn over Merkel now the way they did over Chirac then. But anyway, Tisdall's words in that piece are things like "uproar" and "campaign", which are completely hyperbolic. <em>As it happens I find his opinions a bit emotional at times, like Fisk</em> I have some respect for Fisk, and am not opposed to over-emotional writing. I don't want dispassionate journalism; I just want good standards.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301320030171#c1537007619163263344" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">28 March, 2011 14:47</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c8091013709782633785" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c8091013709782633785"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" id="av-25-06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="ModernityBlog" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">ModernityBlog</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-8091013709782633785" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Bob, Gibbs, just to correct you. <i>"Of course he has responded to critics, including the guest post "</i> Anyone reading the Gibbs thread (and I came to it very late as I was away for weeks) will notice that Gibbs does not *really* respond to his critics. Gibbs does NOT take the central arguments placed against him by Marko Attila Hoare and others, based on the *evidence*, and deal with them. Instead Gibbs said his piece then when challenged he goes off in a huff. There is NO substantive dealing with the real issues by Gibbs.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301320111782#c8091013709782633785" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">28 March, 2011 14:48</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c6222582691206833188" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6222582691206833188"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-26-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6222582691206833188" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Bob - I just happen to know that Freedland is often dishonest in defence of the State of Israel and that he smears Israel's critics and he's used the Guardian editorials, opinion pages and Cif to do it. He also seems to have a certain influence at the Guardian when it comes to maintaining a broadly pro-zionist editorial policy in spite of the paper's supposed liberal worldview. I got that last from Daphna Baram's book, Disenchantment, where I think she lets him off extremely lightly and with which Freedland appears to have been very co-operative. In fairness, I don't read newspapers (or anything else) that thoroughly these days so I don't know much about Tisdall at all (I even have to keep rechecking his name) except what I read about Jenin and the last article I alluded to. No one admits to wanting bad standards but you don't seem to demand better standards or indeed any standards of people who confirm your own views, like Freedland or certain of the commentators here. I just scrolled back and noticed your ludicrous thinly veiled allegation of antisemitism (the Jew Freedland) against me. Honestly Bob, you talk about standards!</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301321634526#c6222582691206833188" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">28 March, 2011 15:13 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=6222582691206833188" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c5549816190285892225" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c5549816190285892225"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" title="skidmarx" width="16" /></span></div>skidmarx said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-5549816190285892225" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">On the war generally - the country seems fairly evenly split, not really reflected in the House of Commons. On "Kate Murray" is this the new Brangelina?I could bother to check, but I think I'd be fairly safe in assuming is that she/they opposed a double standard on Mr.Ronery's stockpile, rather than actively advocating it. On the relevance of SWP acknowledgement of Serbian oppression in Kosovo - just that it made me think twice before accepting the line that Kosovo Albanians had bugger all to worry about until the Nato bombing started. And it was never Third Campism [omits <a href="http://edition.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/03/25/oxford.new.words/index.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">recent OED addition</a> and several exclamation marks for the sake of not getting over-excited]. I seem to remember that Tisdall is the brother of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Tisdall" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Sarah</a>.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301327439944#c5549816190285892225" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">28 March, 2011 16:50</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c6344258764734397594" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6344258764734397594"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" title="skidmarx" width="16" /></span></div>skidmarx said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6344258764734397594" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Oh, and for those who actually want to talk about Rwanda, <a href="http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=7914#comment-335314" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Kevin Ovenden</a> draws our attention to <a href="http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7027.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">this man</a> who explains his anti-imperialist conclusion towards the end of <a href="http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n05/mahmood-mamdani/the-politics-of-naming-genocide-civil-war-insurgency" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">this</a>. Note to the idiots, no I'm still not interested in your libel-prefaced invitations to "discuss" the subject.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301328080290#c6344258764734397594" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">28 March, 2011 17:01</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c7392771822221024186" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c7392771822221024186"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-29-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-7392771822221024186" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">The new Brangelina: thanks Skid. I meant Kate Hudson. Levi: was very irritated when I wrote that comment. Probably should not have used that language. Have not read Daphna Baram's book, altho heard her speak once. Prima facie, tho, hard to accept idea of Guardian as bastion of Zionism under Freedland's influence. Looking at the most recent comment on Israel http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/israel+tone/comment I count six strongly anti-Israel pieces, three pro-Israel pieces (Cesarani and Cohen, latter in Observer, plus Amos Harel), 1 that is neither (Seth Freeman). That seems more or less typical to me. In the previous period, anti-Israel outnumbers pro-Israel 9-2 (with Milne among the anti, Freedland among the pro), but that was the Palestine Papers period, so skewed.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301328651946#c7392771822221024186" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">28 March, 2011 17:10</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c8624133390031912729" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c8624133390031912729"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-30-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-8624133390031912729" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">thanks for that Bob, you're contentious, centrist and truly decent. You see criticism of Israel as anti-Israel. I see wanting to abolish Israel as anti-Israel. As far as know the Guardian has only ever published two articles that logically entailed the abolition of Israel as a desirable goal and they were both some time ago.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301339395352#c8624133390031912729" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">28 March, 2011 20:09 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=8624133390031912729" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c8654262388235297439" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c8654262388235297439"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-31-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-8654262388235297439" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">I meant "pro" and "anti" in a very broad sense. Some Zionists see Freedland as an anti-Zionist and Cesarani is not exactly an unconditional supporter of the state - whereas apparently for some anti-Zionists even Hamas is not anti-Israel enough. Levi, I think you underestimate the number of anti-Israel commentators. By your standards, are you saying that Omar Barghouti of PACBI is insufficiently anti-Israel? Is regular contributor Ghada Karmi? Karma Nabulsi? Daud Abdullah signed the Istanbul Declaration; it doesn't get much more anti-Israel than that. Osama Hamdan is a senior member of Hamas. I think maybe we live in different worlds.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301405097408#c8654262388235297439" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">29 March, 2011 14:24</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c7611927714882486339" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c7611927714882486339"></a><div class="avatar-image-container vcard" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/04321500891200437659" id="av-32-04321500891200437659" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" class="delayLoad" height="35" longdesc="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgs83yWsNaIQ99cZyGizFfkObnZ_i5tpCxQZaGz3loX9rKnmFJve8NNr_4K35aOgNlRT_59MfJEg7ZCZPXkqITcSrXYCGH_1p9rWQXN1MKxm6xbtCVM8BwDPkWy9H1z7MM5tCAsPw/s45/SpecialZephyrs2.jpg" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 1px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 1px; border-width: initial; float: right; position: relative;" title="EscapeVelocity" width="35" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/04321500891200437659" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">EscapeVelocity</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-7611927714882486339" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Dont worry Bob, you can turn your nose up at American soldiers on the ground around the world, you arent the first Leftwinger to do so, nor will you be the last. Maybe you should go out their and offer yourself up as a target, instead of leaning back in your rocking chair at your posh university job, heh?</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301464816551#c7611927714882486339" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">30 March, 2011 07:00</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c1016532880875698667" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c1016532880875698667"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-33-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-1016532880875698667" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Bob - we just notice different things, that's all. Sure the Guardian doesn't mind allowing the occasional criticism of Israel but the basic editorial policy remains the same. I don't see them allowing Ghada Karmi to question Israel's right to exist as that dramatic an issue as long as she's honest and consistent in her application of principles. Freedland has been allowed to engage in sophistry and smears. At the Independent there is a similar policy. They allow for more comment against the Israel, proportionally, than the Guardian but then they have Jacobson to placate the lobby. It's pointless discussing whether anti-zionists would be allowed smear and distort because they don't have to.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301470678152#c1016532880875698667" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">30 March, 2011 08:37 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=1016532880875698667" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c2783370627233990898" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c2783370627233990898"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" title="skidmarx" width="16" /></span></div>skidmarx said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-2783370627233990898" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Tisdall's two contributions to today's Guardian do seem flimsy and largely devoid of facts. More interesting was the Libyan on last night's Newsnight pointing out that there is a difference between going to Iraq to fight Americans and being al-Qaida. <a href="http://rt.com/programs/crosstalk/libya-khashan-gibbs-aybet/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">David Gibbs</a> wa on Russia Today.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301475459512#c2783370627233990898" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">30 March, 2011 09:57</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c4338096511579422821" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c4338096511579422821"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-35-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-4338096511579422821" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">I wouldn't want to defend the Guardian, or Freedland. (And incidentally, Freedland writes on many topics for the Guardian, of which Israel is only one - in fact not a single piece on his current page is on Israel) But the idea that people like Freedland get published to "placate the lobby" is pernicious nonsense. The Guardian is overwhelmingly anti-Israel, but also includes some pro-Israel commentary. It is overwhelmingly left-of-centre on UK politics, but it also regularly runs right-of-centre commenters like Max Hastings and Simon Jenkins, as well as frequently opening up CiF to Tories, and even once published an anarchist. Does it publishes right-wingers to placate the Tory lobby and anarchists to placate the anarchist lobby? It publishes atheists, Christians, Muslims and Hindus - does it do that to placate the atheist, Christian, Muslim and Hindu lobbies? No, the liberal idea of "balance" (flawed as a concept, of course, from a radical perspective, and inconsistently applied by the Graun) is wired into the Guardian's editorial policy, and it is out of a commitment to "balance" (whether that commitment is right or wrong, or simply naive) that the Guardian publishes a range of views. The notion of a Jewish/Zionist lobby with the sort of power you ascribe to it determining the editorial policy of the Guardian is conspiracy theory completely disconnected to the real world. And it is pernicious because it feeds an antisemitic myth of Jewish power. If "the lobby" was so powerful, I don't think senior Hamas leaders would be writing in the Guardian, or regular advocacy of BDS, or regular appearances by MCB spokespeople.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301477479499#c4338096511579422821" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">30 March, 2011 10:31</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c6318147878603263427" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6318147878603263427"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" id="av-36-06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="ModernityBlog" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">ModernityBlog</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6318147878603263427" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><i>"The notion of a Jewish/Zionist lobby with the sort of power you ascribe to it determining the editorial policy of the Guardian is conspiracy theory completely disconnected to the real world. And it is pernicious because it feeds an antisemitic myth of Jewish power."</i> Exactly, such ideas are, in my experience, very common amongst many British "anti-Zionists" which is where we came in....</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301480655889#c6318147878603263427" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">30 March, 2011 11:24</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c3109786635285789310" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c3109786635285789310"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-37-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-3109786635285789310" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">i know the Guardian, Bob. It is liberal in two senses. it broadly supports liberalism and one writer doesn't commit all the others. there doesn't seem to be too much in the way of proprietorial interference. but Freedland and other zionists have had quite a free hand there. it could be that the Guardian as part of the establishment simply supports zionism or it could be that they are yielding to pressure. there is a lot of pressure. the overall Israel/jewish lobby thesis is wrong but that doesn't mean there is no lobby and it doesn't mean that it doesn't get results in individual cases. if it doesn't get results why do lobby groups exist and what do they do? curiously a lot of the letters and articles the Guardian publishes against Israel and zionism are often tainted with antisemitism (including Hastings and Jemima Khan)which i feel also undermines the cause of Palestine solidarity. I've got no idea why they do that when there are so many writers of letters and articles who can argue against zionism without generalising about Jews. I know there are honest people that like Freedland's writing and speaking on other things but his smears of Israel's critics are outrageous and his sophistry rarely gets addressed if ever. It could be that in order to appear balanced they have to let zionists lie for Israel or against the critics whereas anti-zionists don't have to but allowing journalists to smear named individuals in what claims to be a newspaper of record does seem to be a privilege only granted to zionists - on the question of Palestine anyway. You should look at Baram's book if you can get it now. You probably can. I think it was commissioned by the Guardian in response to an American inspired campaign against it. As I said before, she seems to let Freedland off lightly, indeed she doesn't criticise him at all. Linda Grant doesn't fair so well though.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301483717903#c3109786635285789310" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">30 March, 2011 12:15 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=3109786635285789310" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c9454115382693050" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c9454115382693050"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a href="http://www.adjb.net/sab/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Sarah AB" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.adjb.net/sab/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Sarah AB</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-9454115382693050" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">I am wondering exactly what Levi means by 'Zionist' in his previous comment - is the word always being used to mean the same thing here? I always think of Jonathan Freedland as someone who is pretty critical of Israel - which is fine and also compatible with being a 'Zionist'. I always find Zionist an unhelpfully overused word. I don't consider myself a Zionist, largely because I'm not Jewish. But I am not an anti-zionist.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301551515303#c9454115382693050" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">31 March, 2011 07:05</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c5413039521964000437" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c5413039521964000437"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a href="http://www.adjb.net/sab/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Sarah AB" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.adjb.net/sab/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Sarah AB</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-5413039521964000437" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Just thinking about this further over breakfast - Levi, is this person a Zionist or not? (Not me, though similar views) Supports a two state solution Is decidedly critical of some of Israel's actions, eg Mavi Marmara, settlement building. Condemns hate preachers in West Bank Thinks it's wrong Hamas doesn't allow teaching of the settlement. Condemned shooting of Israelis, and saw that action as an attempt to stop peace talks.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301552864094#c5413039521964000437" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">31 March, 2011 07:27</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c6015723730312935588" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6015723730312935588"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a href="http://www.adjb.net/sab/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Sarah AB" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.adjb.net/sab/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Sarah AB</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6015723730312935588" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">I meant 'holocaust' not 'settlement' of course.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301552914569#c6015723730312935588" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">31 March, 2011 07:28</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c2446075201827731674" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c2446075201827731674"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-41-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-2446075201827731674" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Whenever I use the word "zionist" I use it to mean the same thing. I use it to mean someone who believes there should be a state for the world's Jews and that Jews should have more right to that state and more rights in that state than the native non-Jewish population. I think that tallies with what the World Zionist Organisation and the officials of the State of Israel mean by it. I wouldn't say whether someone is a zionist or not depends on whether they are Jewish or not. Churchill (among many others) described himself as a zionist and there are Christian fundamentalist groups which openly call themselves zionist. I don't think anything in your list is relevant to whether someone is a zionist or not. So many people of different persuasions and motivations claim to want a two state solution. I suppose it depends how they want those states to be organised that counts. I often assume that people who smear Israel's critics or support proposals to have them silenced are zionists regardless of where they claim to stand on one, two or no state solutions. They accuse Israel's critics of "glossing" and "distortion" without ever explaining what they actually mean, even when challenged. Come to think of it, David Aaronovitch and Nick Cohen do that sort of thing and neither of them are Jewish either, unless they converted recently or they are simply self-identifying as Jews - which is fine by me but they ought to make their minds up. Whatever. I don't think it's relevant whether someone is Jewish or not to whether they are zionist or not. But I understand there are many people who share the same positive opinion of the State of Israel and that some are openly zionist and some claim to be non-zionist. I have even seen David Toube and Linda Grant claiming to be anti-zionist. But then, Noam Chomsky has claimed to be a zionist and he has pretty much the same opinion as Norman Finkelstein, who Freedland smears as being antisemitic, mostly because of Finkelstein's writing against zionism and the exploitation of Jewish suffering, particularly in the holocaust.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301558853245#c2446075201827731674" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">31 March, 2011 09:07 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=2446075201827731674" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c8234523812535020796" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c8234523812535020796"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-42-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-8234523812535020796" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Re Churchill - that's Winston, not Caryl.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301558895919#c8234523812535020796" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">31 March, 2011 09:08 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=8234523812535020796" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c4553269002271330927" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c4553269002271330927"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" title="skidmarx" width="16" /></span></div>skidmarx said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-4553269002271330927" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><i>Condemned shooting of Israelis</i> Presumably meaning the Itamar killings, as to think that any resistance by Palestinians ever was the reason peace is not achieved would be a bit silly.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301561725735#c4553269002271330927" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">31 March, 2011 09:55</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c5318842691886154023" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c5318842691886154023"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-44-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-5318842691886154023" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">The Itamar family were knifed, not shot and I think it's still not known who actually did that. A very strange case given the extreme zionism of the Gush Emunim settlers and the lack of access to the settlement to Palestinians and yet they rely on foreign workers, one of whom is believed by many to have killed the Fogel family members. Does anyone have more recent info on that? But regarding that case, I would assume to be a zionist, without further evidence, anyone who declares that "the left must condemn" and yet remained silent through the so-called "cast lead" attack on Gaza.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301562282740#c5318842691886154023" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">31 March, 2011 10:04 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=5318842691886154023" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c2153901687039698287" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c2153901687039698287"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" title="Sarah AB" width="16" /></span></div>Sarah AB said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-2153901687039698287" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">I had in mind the Israeli settlers who were shot - I think there were 4, one was pregnant.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301563323127#c2153901687039698287" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">31 March, 2011 10:22</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c5830482209156007622" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c5830482209156007622"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-46-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-5830482209156007622" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">I think sarah's referring to the shooting in Hebron in September by Hamas Qassam Brigade gunmen, at a time when PA were engaged in peace talks with Israel, an evil act designed to derail the talks, make 2 state solution impossible, and keep Iz/Pal locked into the cycle of violence. Yes, one of the victims was pregnant.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301566246661#c5830482209156007622" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">31 March, 2011 11:10</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c1051020205956609215" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c1051020205956609215"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" id="av-47-06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="ModernityBlog" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">ModernityBlog</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-1051020205956609215" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Sarah, The question what does someone mean when they use the word "Zionists" is a good one. But in this particular instance Elf is probably about as consistent as you will find him. (That's a compliment) But if you look at the wider usage of the word "Zionist", the meaning varies from those (whom support the existence of Israel as an entity and think it was a good idea) to its deployment as a euphemism for Jew, and many varieties in between. Typically on the "anti-imperialist left" Zionist seems to be taken as someone who is a quasi-fascist-believer-in-ethnic-cleansing-and-low-of-the-low (evidence for this can be seen on any particularly active thread at SU blog or Seymour's blog covering related issues). Elsewhere amongst parts of the English intelligentsia the word "Zionist" seems akin to baby-eater or worst. So I find it depends on the person and their grasp of the issues, and more often than not emotional inclination, as to how they actually use it in day to day usage.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301566768192#c1051020205956609215" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">31 March, 2011 11:19</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c6976598097506657810" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6976598097506657810"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-48-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6976598097506657810" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">In other words, to answer the question that Sarah actually asked: "I am wondering exactly what <i>Levi</i> means by 'Zionist' in his previous comment - is the word always being used to mean the same thing here?" As moddy said, I am consistent in my definition and application of the word "zionist" though I am aware that different people have different meanings and applications of the word. I think an abstract definition is possible. For example, statehood for a specified identity group not necessarily from the state territory, whereby members of the group have more right to live in the territory and more rights if they live in the territory than people who are not members of that identity group, whether the latter come from or live in the territory or not. Needs work maybe (it was off the top of my head - not the best place to look for something except my hat), but I think it works in the cases of the WZO, its affiliates and the State of Israel, together with all organisations that I know of that describe themselves as zionist. Waters are muddied by antisemites and zionists, both whom have an interest in implicating all Jews in the zionist project; the former because they can associate Jews with an unjust project, the latter because it associates anti-zionists with a repugnant tenet of ideology, ie antisemitism.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301572556096#c6976598097506657810" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">31 March, 2011 12:55 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=6976598097506657810" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c1042722534208053913" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c1042722534208053913"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" id="av-49-06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="ModernityBlog" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">ModernityBlog</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-1042722534208053913" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">"Waters are muddied..." Indeed they are, but by more than Elf would suggest. Political 'Anti-Zionists' tend to use the word "Zionist" in a pejorative fashion. Many Leninists (and his latter-day representatives) have traditionally used it in a similar fashion (remember the 1960's 'anti-Zionist' campaigns). If you were to ask 10 non-Jewish "anti-imperialists" what the word 'Zionist' I very much doubt they would tally with Elf's definition. In the same way that if you had visited North America in the early 1950s** and asked some relatively prosperous graduates how they define the word 'socialist' then you might get answers along the lines of "same as Communism, human bondage slavery and dictatorships" etc etc . You sometimes get the impression that the word Zionist is spat out in a similar fashion to Cold War warriors saying "Communist!". It's not so much what people say but <b>how</b> they say it. ** the period of active McCarthyism.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301574200576#c1042722534208053913" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">31 March, 2011 13:23</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c6984561143787812591" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6984561143787812591"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-50-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6984561143787812591" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Moddy, you've given an example of when an antisemitic campaign was called "anti-zionist" in order to cover up its antisemitic motivation and outcome. Actually one outcome was beneficial to zionism too. Jews were allowed to leave, eg, Poland, only if they said they were going to Israel. Whether they went to Israel or not is another story. Some ended up in the UK for sure. I did mention that this sort of thing happens (antisemitism disguised as anti-zionism and the vice versa allegation that you don't give examples of) though I didn't give specific examples. Out of all the people purporting to support the Palestinian cause, I have only seen Gilad Atzmon offering a <i>definition</i> of zionism that didn't involve Jewish statehood and he had to lie to make the example look relevant to anything. But anyway, the question Sarah asked wasn't about random self-styled leninists or anti-imperialists, it was about "what <i>Levi</i> means by 'Zionist' in his previous comment" and " - is the word always being used to mean the same thing here?" I have offered a definition that is consistent with the aims and objectives of self-defined zionist groups and the State of Israel. And, yes, I always mean the same thing when I use the word zionist.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301577762140#c6984561143787812591" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">31 March, 2011 14:22 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=6984561143787812591" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c7783810226796890403" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c7783810226796890403"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" id="av-51-06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="ModernityBlog" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">ModernityBlog</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-7783810226796890403" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><i>" is the word always being used to mean the same thing here?"</i> A good question, but words can mean different things to different people, and we would be foolish to assume a static view of words, or that how **we** use words is how people perceive them, which is a more pertinent question. As for Leninists, there's no self styling. It could certainly be argued that the consistently 'Anti-Zionist' theme found in most Leninist parties owes its origin to early 20th century debates in Russia, as much to 1960s Soviet 'anti-Zionism'. By that I mean you will find a particularly peculiar approach is taken by certain Leninist groups (as opposed to non-Leninist Marxist groups) towards Zionism, and I think that flavours much of the contemporary debate.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301580472798#c7783810226796890403" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">31 March, 2011 15:07</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c8445919392684940050" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c8445919392684940050"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a href="http://www.adjb.net/sab/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Sarah AB" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.adjb.net/sab/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Sarah AB</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-8445919392684940050" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Thanks Levi - does Jonathan Freedland really think that Jews should have more rights than non-Jews within Israel though? My hypothetical case was a Palestinian from the West Bank who is a peace activist - I used him as an example because I had been thinking that he would probably get called a Zionist, or maybe ZIONIST, if he ventured to express his views at Socialist Unity!</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301596934354#c8445919392684940050" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">31 March, 2011 19:42</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c3019219998371263426" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c3019219998371263426"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-53-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-3019219998371263426" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Sarah - thanks for your thanks. As you would (indeed as you do) expect, there are no zionists who openly admit to what zionism actually entails in terms of Jewish privilege or supremacy because it undermines their claim to support a state based on western values of democracy, liberty and the rule of law. But I have seen Jonathan Freedland admitting that the establishment of the State of Israel involved the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and I have seen him calling the establishment of the State of Israel, as a state specifically for Jews, both a "moral necessity" and a Jewish "entitlement". And I have seen him describing himself as a zionist. I haven't heard him define zionism, nor have I heard him say the words "I believe that there should be a state to which Jews have more right and in which Jews have more rights than the existing non-Jewish, former non-Jewish or any non-Jewish population." From what I have seen, that could be coaxed out of him but I haven't actually seen it, read it or heard about it.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301609688443#c3019219998371263426" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">31 March, 2011 23:14 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=3019219998371263426" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c6217875774366878195" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6217875774366878195"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-54-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6217875774366878195" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">BTW - Coincidentally, I was googling for him saying that the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians was a "moral necessity" and I found him saying this (it addresses a point raised earlier in the thread by Bob) "When people complain about articles in The Guardian, they are almost always talking about outside submissions rather than pieces written by staff journalists. That is the price you pay for being involved with a paper that believes in publishing the widest possible range of voices." He adds: "The Guardian believes not only in Israel's right to exist but goes further. In a 2001 editorial, it stated that the creation of the state of Israel was ‘a moral necessity'. That is the Guardian view of Israel." And there's the rub. "Israel's right to exist" obscures, I believe deliberately, what Israel exists as. But when you consider that just about everyone who calls themselves a zionist says that the Palestinian right of return amounts to "the destruction of the State of Israel" they clearly mean that Israel should be a state for the world's Jews and that Jews should have more right to it and more rights in it than non-Jews.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301609743714#c6217875774366878195" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">31 March, 2011 23:15 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=6217875774366878195" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c6000159079810747" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6000159079810747"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-55-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6000159079810747" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Now how did this happen? Last week I posted on a local Islamic Centre in my manor - and we get a long comments thread on Gilad Atzmon. This week I post about the Guardian and Libya - and we get a long comments thread on what a Zionist is. And some people accuse me of Ziocentrism!</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301669947032#c6000159079810747" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">01 April, 2011 15:59</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c1074988114365931549" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c1074988114365931549"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-56-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-1074988114365931549" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><em>Whenever I use the word "zionist" I use it to mean the same thing. I use it to mean someone who believes there should be a state for the world's Jews and that Jews should have more right to that state and more rights in that state than the native non-Jewish population.</em> <em>When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - - that's all."</em> Historically, Zionism was about a national home for the Jews, not a national state. Ahad Ha'am, one of the most influential and important Zionists historically, never advocated a Jewish state. The early practical Zionist movement and the precursors of the kibbutzim, such as the Degania piorneers, were non-state Zionists, as James Horrox's excellent history excavates. Joseph Trumpledor was, I think, a non-state Zionist. Under Levi's Humpty Dumpty definition, however, none of them count as Zionists. And then there are the Zionists who have advocated one state or a binational state of some sort, such as Martin Buber, Gershom Scholem and so on. I presume the Magnes Zionist blogger, given his blogname, considers himself a Zionist, as his inspiration Judah Magnes. But not under Levi's Humpty Dumpty definition. And then all the Zionists who want two states, or a fully democratic Israel in which Arab citizens are truly equal. Nope, not them either. Doesn't matter, in short, whether someone calls themselves a Zionist or not, the Levis, the Finks and the Humpties are there to tell us who the real Zionists are, and warn us away from them. The good Jews, the Jews Against Zionism, they're the ones that can tell the rest of us the truth lurking behind the lies people tell about themselves. Under the Humpty definition, evil people are Zionists, because Zionists are evil people. A twisted and perverse worldview.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301671070617#c1074988114365931549" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">01 April, 2011 16:17</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c1395043612434580272" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c1395043612434580272"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-57-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-1395043612434580272" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Finishing my previous thoughtstream (apologies for thinking aloud...): In the anti-Zionist imagination, they define Zionism as they choose, as essentially a believer in ethnic cleansing, and then you're damned if you call yourself a Zionist and don't believe in ethnic cleansing, because Zionists are Bad, and you're damned if you support Israel but don't call yourself a Zionist, because Zionists believe in ethnic cleansing. It's a circular argument, and it leaves most Jews (because most Jews are positively emotionally invested in Israel, whatever their views) feeling under assualt. *** I always thought "the Z-word" was a great name for a blog. Zionism is treated, in the anti-Zionist imagination, as utterly exceptional. One of the ways this is so is illustrated in the above comments. Take any other nationalism. Nationalism is about the SELF-determination of "nation-states". So, black nationalism, for instance (and its sub-sets, like Garveyism or Afrocentrism), is a movement of black people, about the self-determination of an imagined black nation. Not many non-black people would call themselves Garveyites or be called Garveyites. (You get a few, usually eccentric people who identify so strongly with another "nation" that they are exceptions to this rule - Sylvia Pankhurst in relation to Ethiopianism, say, or TE Lawrence and his heir George Galloway in relation to Arab nationalism. They are exceptions, oddities.) Of course, there are so-called Christian Zionists, an odd messianic movement that has absolutely nothing to do with the self-determination of a Jewish "nation" and everything to do with Biblical eschatology and the end days - this has nothing really to do with Zionism as such, although there are strategic alliances. Apart from that, few non-Jewish people would call themselves Zionists, as few non-black people would call themselves Garveyites, however sympathetic they might be. But in the anti-Zionist imagination, supporting Jewish national-self determination is a crime, the crime of Zionism.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301671704671#c1395043612434580272" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">01 April, 2011 16:28</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c48137710545928028" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c48137710545928028"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-58-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-48137710545928028" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Sorry to continue thinking aloud, even though this has gone on far too long. <em>Whenever I use the word "zionist" I use it to mean the same thing. I use it to mean someone who believes there should be a state for the world's Jews and that Jews should have more right to that state and more rights in that state than the native non-Jewish population.</em> Indeed, Levi is consistent in his definition, to say which, repeating Mod, is a compliment, as that is not true of many people on both sides. Partly because there is so much bad faith, partly because there is a lot of honest confusion and mixed feelings. I suspect I am not so consistent in my uses of this or related words. One of Levi's consistencies, as in the definition here, is the repeated "native" claim. I know I'm repeating myself here, but I leave the defence of the rights of "natives" to the BNP and their ilk of every colour: the people that talk of the American Southwest as Aztlan, the saffron fascists who impose imaginary Hindu names on the body parts of their Motherland, and so on. Specifically, what does it mean to say an "identity group" is native not just to a village or a valley or a region, but to a national territory? What does it mean to say they are native to a nation-state that has never existed? How many generations in a place do you have to dwell in a place to be considered native? How many generations of absence does it take to lose one's native status? Do people carry nativeness in their blood? Do they carry it in the keys to doors that no longer stand, as with the Sephardic Jews who still carry their families' Spanish keys or the Palestinians that carry theirs' from the Nakba? What do you do if half your blood comes from a native line but not the other half? To count as native, do you have to know when your ancestors migrated to the territory? Do we pick a year - say 1948, or 1917, or 1841, or 70 CE? How do we chose which year to pick? If you get political priority - the right to have rights, as Arendt put it - only by being native to a nation-state, what about the individuals or the groups who are native to no-where, including the Roma? Leave nativism to the BNP and the Kahanists.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301673202539#c48137710545928028" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">01 April, 2011 16:53</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c1442708179328748507" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c1442708179328748507"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" id="av-59-06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="ModernityBlog" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">ModernityBlog</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-1442708179328748507" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Bob, Am off for the weekend so can't really contribute for a few days, but here's a few random thoughts: 1) As you say there's a lot of confusion over the word 'Zionist' 2) You might think that those engaged in politics or activism would appreciate that there is a need for precise meanings and shared understandings, but that obviously isn't the case. 3) There is a tendency among activists to employ a form of word inflation, hyperbole and we can see this in many facets in society, but none more so than when the Middle East swings into view. 4) Part of the issue, a key part <b>is not what we say but how it is received,</b> ie what the people here when the word 'zionist' is used? I suggest that a majority of British Jews take 'Zionist' as a euphemism for Jews (even if it's not meant that way) 5) That you might conclude if my point 4 has merit then activists should be a bit more careful, but it is the contrary. They throw the word around in a pejorative sense, look at SU blog and other anti-imperialist blogs as evidence Yet if you were to tell them how that word is received they would more than likely deny that meaning, which leads to problems with Atzmon's terminology and how the SWP didn't pick up on his racism, or issues in the Green Party. More later.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301674261987#c1442708179328748507" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">01 April, 2011 17:11</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c2563998103569465194" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c2563998103569465194"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" title="skidmarx" width="16" /></span></div>skidmarx said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-2563998103569465194" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><i>I suggest that a majority of British Jews take 'Zionist' as a euphemism for Jews </i> I suggest that a majority of British Zionists take 'Zionist' as a euphemism for Jews. Making an apologist for the state of Israel like yourself the policeman of language, well pirates/navy, fox/henhouse,... Bob - <i>they define Zionism as they choose, as essentially a believer in ethnic cleansing</i> You engage in a couple of pieces of slippage around this. One is to avoid the question of whether establishing and maintaining Israel's ethnic status has required and does require ethnic cleansing, which would make that the inevitable consequence of Zionist belief, and whether anti-zionists might have the wit to think that someone who wants to see Jews in Palestine but not at the expense of Palestinians isn't a Zionist.[Or whether it takes a lot of cheek for non-Palestinians to insist that ending their oppression is not a more important goal than worrying about how their oppressors are described]. <i>Do we pick a year - say 1948, or 1917, or 1841, or 70 CE?</i> How about 1948? <i>How do we chose which year to pick?</i> The one when the historic expulsion in living memory took place?</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301676785712#c2563998103569465194" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">01 April, 2011 17:53</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c8910590719765921399" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c8910590719765921399"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-61-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-8910590719765921399" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Do we pick a year - say 1948, or 1917, or 1841, or 70 CE? <em>How about 1948?</em> How do we chose which year to pick? <em>The one when the historic expulsion in living memory took place?</em> So, once the Nakba is no longer in living memory, which is actually not that far away, everything will be OK? That's a relief!</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301680963608#c8910590719765921399" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">01 April, 2011 19:02</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c6184627177907776114" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6184627177907776114"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-62-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6184627177907776114" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Bob - The question from Sarah was what Levi means by the word Zionist. The way I use the word Zionist is consistent no matter when I use it and it is consistent with the aims and objectives of the WZO and its affiliates and the structure and policies of the State of Israel. If I had known (and I should have) how tricky you were going to be, I should have specified that I mean "modern political zionism" but I thought that went without saying. All that Humpty Dumpty stuff is gratuitously insulting and dishonest, particularly as I have mentioned that there are people (like Magnes and Chomsky) who call themselves zionist whilst not supporting a state specifically for Jews. Not only that, it is you who is arguing for a definition of zionism so flexible as to be meaningless. And it was you who once defined zionism as "self-emancipation of Jews" with no hint of irony. So you're also engaging in projection by way of a change. Perhaps I should point out that Steve Cohen described himself as an anti-zionist zionist, and that he claimed that he calls himself zionist because he is opposed to antisemitism. That cannot be a definition of zionism if indeed we want a definition. Most histories of zionism distinguish between the Lovers of Zion (Ahad Ha'am) and the zionist movement. El Al's history certainly does. And anyway, apparently Ha'am did favour a Jewish state until he witnessed the behaviour of the people who described themselves as zionists. And the kibbutz movement was aimed at Jewish statehood. A national home for Jews as distinct from Jewish statehood is deliberately meaningless. You're trying to make out that the Balfour Declaration was something other than support for the zionist conquest of Palestine. I doubt Buber's sincerity from what I have read but his view of bi-nationalism still involved special status for Jews and ultimately restrictions on Arabs and other non-Jews. Magnes seems to have been fairly sound on the question of the rights of the non-Jewish communities in Palestine but logically his view of Jews settling in Palestine still meant Jews having special status denied to non-Jews. And I've mentioned before how the Magnes Zionist blogger would be considered anti-zionist by supporters of the State of Israel and all organisations that call themselves zionist today. Your invoking of Garveyism was simply giving an example of an earlier abstract definition I offered. As it happens, Sierra Leone and Liberia, as far as I know, both had their origins in "back to Africa" movements and like zionism involved the oppression of existing communities but garveyism today is basically rastafarianism and curiously enough, CLR James likened Garvey to Hitler. That would get him banned from addressing students at Birmingham University. But there is no practical "back to Africa" movement so it's pointless discussing it except as yet more filibuster material. The fact that you had to resort to a non-existent movement tends to suggest that zionism is unique today as a practical project. Christian zionists do support the idea of Israel being a state for the world's Jews where Jews have more rights than the non-Jewish population. Yes they are antisemitic and yes they want the Jews once they are all "ingathered" to convert to Christianity or die. But they don't negate how I defined zionism. Asking when we begin to define zionism in a way that has current and relevant meaning is a rhetorical question coming from someone more interested in smearing the critics of Israel than in an earnest discussion about what zionism actually is but of course, the state variety (modern political zionism) is the only one of campaigning interest. There is all sorts of academic stuff on "zionist orientations" like linguistic, cultural and so on, but it was so obvious what my meaning was it wasn't worth going into simply to preempt a filibuster.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301685581074#c6184627177907776114" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">01 April, 2011 20:19 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=6184627177907776114" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c6052122307711613473" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6052122307711613473"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-63-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6052122307711613473" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Bob again - re your hope that "the old will die and the young will forget" there is some controversy in zionist circles as to whether or not Arabs can be given equal rights with Jews at any point: See this from Shalom Lappin: <i>There is no justification in a country that purports to be a democracy for a policy of sustaining the majority status of one of its ethnic groups through coercive legal measures or discrimination against its minorities. However, there is a significant distinction between such a policy and a refusal to accept the return of large numbers of refugees who would destroy the national character of the country through hostility to it. If Israel returns to the 1967 borders (or the rough equivalent envisaged under the Geneva Accords), the Arab community will constitute approximately 18% of its total population [….] To the extent that Israeli Arabs achieve genuine equality and their standard of living rises accordingly, it is reasonable to expect that their social patterns and demography will come increasingly to resemble that of the Jewish majority. This may well stabilize the population balance over time.</i> But Adrian Cohen (is he connected with the Z-Word blog? Not sure) disagrees on the dispensability of the explicit racism in Israel's laws: <i>Without its Jewish character and without the laws, such as the law of return and the laws which assist with the settlement of Jews in Israel it could not perform its role.</i> Re your question of how much got said about zionism in this thread, I mentioned what I thought of Freedland to Jim Jepps and you went ape about it, implying that I'm antisemitic. You managed a semi-retraction before degenerating into gratuitous abuse, circular definitions, irrelevant nonsense, suspended disbelief and a bewildering propensity for projection. You might try scrolling before asking. Re Deborah Fink, I don't think she describes herself as anti-zionist but I don't know.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301687016644#c6052122307711613473" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">01 April, 2011 20:43 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=6052122307711613473" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c2569840210243836739" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c2569840210243836739"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" title="Anonymous" width="16" /></span></div>Anonymous said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-2569840210243836739" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">If Levi wants to define a chair as "something to sit on with four legs", I think he should be accused immediately of making the word chair mean what he wants it to mean. Previous comment caught in spam.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301733218704#c2569840210243836739" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">02 April, 2011 09:33</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c8827838856232614766" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c8827838856232614766"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-65-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-8827838856232614766" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Mod, Bob and Sarah would then accuse me of sexism for not acknowledging that a chair is actually non-sexist language for someone who heads an organisation or a committee. And ignorance for not knowing that "chair" is actually the name of one of Woody Allen's pet spaniels. Then of course there is "CHAIR!" which some people used to shout when they saw a mouse before that word was replace in the late medieval period by "EEK!" So how far back are we taking this "chair" concept?</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301737673791#c8827838856232614766" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">02 April, 2011 10:47 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=8827838856232614766" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c6065763999574915065" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6065763999574915065"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a href="http://www.adjb.net/sab/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Sarah AB" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.adjb.net/sab/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Sarah AB</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6065763999574915065" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Two thoughts, neither of them a direct challenge to points made by Levi et al. 1. The word Zionist is, I think, often used to describe someone who supports the policies of the Israeli right in an uncritical way. This makes it more difficult to define oneself as a Zionist who is critical of those policies. Zionist always = right wing Zionist. 2. The bar for qualifying as a Zionist seems to be set lower if you are Jewish. If I held my present views (which include opposition to Israel boycotts), but was Jewish, I think I'd be seen, and see myself perhaps, as a Zionist. (If I am a Zionist, though, I hope I am also a Palestinianist!)</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301742209038#c6065763999574915065" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">02 April, 2011 12:03</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c973208729236448344" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c973208729236448344"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-67-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-973208729236448344" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">If people are going to say that they are or are not zionists then they ought to be able to say what they are affirming to or denying. If people are saying that they believe anti-zionism to be antisemitism then they should say what they understand by both of these expressions. If they are saying that they do not believe anti-zionism to be antisemitism then the same goes. Zionism is similar to fascism, racism and antisemitism in that they are all ideological positions that far more people are accused of than own up. Where zionism today stands out from the other three is that whereas you will not find hardly any individual or group openly describing themselves as fascist, racist or antisemitic, there are many people and organisations who openly describe themselves as zionists. What is very strange is that it tends to be Israel's detractors and victims who are asked what they think zionism is rather than the people who openly describe themselves as zionists. And yet some gentle probing will generally elicit from them that they support the idea of Jews having special status in a specifically Jewish state. Sarah, the two observations you make ought to be supportable by reference to examples. I'm sure there are some (in fact I can think of some) but you haven't provided any. re your point 1) Maybe I already mentioned that when I saw Freedland at a discussion hosted by JfJfP he had no objection to being introduced as a "leading advocate of the zionist left". re 2) I did already say that Churchill called himself a zionist in that he supported the idea of a state for Jews. Gordon Brown told a meeting of the JNF that he was raised in a "zionist household". Cameron, Blair, Brown and Kennedy are all honorary patrons of the Jewish National Fund which was established by the World Zionist Organisation. I would say this makes them all zionists irrespective of their non-Jewish ethno-religious backgrounds. I accept you weren't challenging me or anyone in particular but if we don't arrive at common definitions for certain words we end up in Bob's projected humpty dumpty land where anything means anything (everything sucks!) and only supporters of the existing status quo can benefit from that.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301749535172#c973208729236448344" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">02 April, 2011 14:05 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=973208729236448344" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c1917924024756922441" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c1917924024756922441"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" title="skidmarx" width="16" /></span></div>skidmarx said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-1917924024756922441" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">That anonymous comment is mine. Sarah AB - I fear the two may be incompatible. Levi9909 - you're also blatantly ignoring the fact,<b>the fact</b>,that not all chairs have four legs, that it is only in the comfortable West that we can afford to create such<a href="http://www.zafu.net/whatswrong.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">back pain</a>,and of course, the fact that you have not mentioned Israel anywhere in your response proves that you must think the Israelis are <b>secretly</b> changing the definition for their own nefarious purposes. You complete <a href="http://www.pcrf.net/?p=1686" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Mormon</a>.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301749929101#c1917924024756922441" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">02 April, 2011 14:12</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c4179118659086970183" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c4179118659086970183"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a href="http://www.adjb.net/sab/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Sarah AB" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.adjb.net/sab/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Sarah AB</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-4179118659086970183" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Levi - you seem to set the bar pretty high for Zionism - and this may be internally consistent, but is confusing given that others set it low, eg (I think) here: http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=7394 But I'm happy to try to police my use of the term 'anti-zionist' more carefully, given that I had no objection to the way BfB advocated a one state solution here http://brockley.blogspot.com/2010/12/influential-left-wing-ideas.html</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301770200035#c4179118659086970183" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">02 April, 2011 19:50</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c257655481731880341" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c257655481731880341"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-70-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-257655481731880341" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">I know Churchill was in many ways very PRO-Zionist, but I wondered if he actually described himself as A Zionist. I did a very brief bit of googling and found this interesting review article: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/015/184tajor.asp In Churchill's time, being or not being a Zionist I suppose was a weighty question in a very particular way for a British politician, as Britain had it within its gift to make or not make the Balfour Declaration, to draft or not draft the White Paper and set quotas on Jewish immigration, to leave and hand over the state to one or another or both or neither of its "nations". For me, I never found it relevant to say I am a Zionist or an anti-Zionist. The state of Israel existed, and in a sense therefore Zionism became redundant. I used to answer, if asked, that I was a "non-Zionist". Later, when I started hearing about "post-Zionists" in Israel, I liked the idea of that. More recently, since the start of the second intifada I think, I feel that the tenor of anti-Zionism as an empirical movement (not as an intellectual concept) changed. I'm not sure how easily I could articulate what I felt, but I started, "as a Jew" (even if only sort of Jewish) who was not anti-Zionist, to feel under attack AS a Zionist. I don't know if that makes sense, but I suspect anyone Jewish who is not a committed anti-Zionist will have experienced something like this. I think that I have felt at times a kind of reactive "we are all Hezbollah"/"we are all German Jews" type perverse desire to attest to being a Zionist in the context of the anti-Zionist assault. I suspect that most non-Jews who call themselves Zionists today (leaving out the Christian Zionists, who I continue to think are a wholly different species), are doing it out of solidarity with that sense of assault, or in the case of politicians cyncially appealing to the votes of people experiencing that assault, or possibly a mix of the two. --- Just to clarify my clumsy attempt at humour above: I do not in any sense "hope that the old will die and the young will forget", a la Ben Gurion. Rather, I was trying to point out the absurdity of taking "the historic expulsion in living memory took place" as a criterion for political priority. My point about the keys of Seferad should make it obvious I know that memory is long. Indeed, many Jews, as you know, still genuinely mourn the destruction of the Temple...</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301778643299#c257655481731880341" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">02 April, 2011 22:10</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c380812559240497272" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c380812559240497272"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-71-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-380812559240497272" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Sarah, I answered your original question honestly and straightforwardly, only adding later that I mean "modern political zionism" as distinct from, eg, cultural and linguistic. I can't see any grounds for confusion and I can only guess what it means to "set the bar pretty high for Zionism". Regarding "internally consistent", the way I define zionism is not simply internally consistent, it is consistent with the aims and objectives, structures, policies and professed beliefs of the overwhelming majority of extant groups and individuals who self-identify as zionist. I have mentioned some exceptions to the general rule and I have noted that there are people who believe that the State of Israel should remain Jewish but who claim not to be zionists, though it's rare to see them explaining what the difference is between themselves and those who call themselves zionists. Eg, Dr Hirsh of Engage (the former) and John Strawson (the latter). There are many examples but I gather you know Hirsh and Strawson (so you could always ask them what they understand by the word zionist. If you did already, what did they say?). I also offered an abstract definition which, though rushed, Bob seemed to endorse with his reference to garveyism. I don't see Bob's take on the one-state solution detracting from my definition of zionism, in fact he seems to confirm it's validity with the words "another Zionism is possible". Other than what? So that seems to be another endorsement from Bob but he doesn't confuse you or at least you don't say he does. And I see you being accused of being a zionist on the Socialist Unity thread. Is that what you meant by a lower bar? How so? It was you that said that non-Jews don't get called zionists and you say you are not Jewish but you've been called a zionist on SU. I'm guessing it's because they perceived you as a supporter of Israel, the zionist state. But I notice, that in spite of your professed confusion to my spelling out in detail, with examples and subject to exceptions, "what Levi means by 'Zionist'", you express no confusion on the SU thread where no one explained what they meant and you didn't ask. Perhaps you could offer us a definition of zionism that would tally with the usage of those institutions and individuals who call themselves zionist and we'll see if we can iron out this confusion of yours. Or, failing that, just say what it is you find confusing and what you mean when you say I "set the bar pretty high for Zionism". But please note, with this "bar" thingy, you seem to have contradicted yourself. I know this is a blog and not a phd thesis or a court of law but you're not even being "internally consistent".</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301786732440#c380812559240497272" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">03 April, 2011 00:25 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=380812559240497272" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c860252772796084488" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c860252772796084488"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-72-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-860252772796084488" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Bob - Here's this Yoav Tenembaum chap in an article titled, "The last romantic zionist gentile": <i>Churchill used to trace his Zionism back to the days of the Balfour Declaration, describing himself as ”an old Zionist.” His attitude toward Zionism remained as passionate and as explicit following his return to Ten Downing Street in 1951. Now, however, with the State of Israel firmly in place, the images he entertained became perhaps more vivid, more colorful, and as ever imbued with historical resonance. Thus, in June 1954, Churchill stated to journalists in the United States, ”I am a Zionist, let me make that clear. I was one of the original ones after the Balfour Declaration and I have worked faithfully for it.” </i> http://www.raoulwallenberg.net/articles/last-romantic-zionist-gentile/ It was the first site to appear when I googled - Churchill "I am a zionist". What did you google? Personally I don't distinguish between pro-zionist and zionist, Even if I did, the definition of zionist would remain the same. By the way, the Balfour Declaration was issued before the UK conquered Palestine from the Ottoman empire though I'm sure the UK saw the world as its oyster to carve up as it chose. And the WZO was openly colonial and referred to Jews as a race. Regarding whether or not zionism became irrelevant when Israel came into being, this overlooks how a zionist state differs from all others today. Israel insists on being a state for Jews. All other states are defined simply by where they are. All Syria has to do to continue to be Syria is stay where it is. Israel needs policies to guarantee that it remains, not where it is, but what it is, ie, Jewish. This means constantly cherry picking the population, and excluding/displacing the natives. That is why the role of the World Zionist Organisation to liaise between the State of Israel and the Jews of the world is so important, indeed unique out of all existing states. I'm not saying other states don't manipulate the ethno-religious character of their populations, but only Israel does it by dint of its self-definition and only Israel would cease to exist, other things being equal, if it abolished its segregationist citizenship laws. It's a funny thing that whilst there are critics of Israel's critics who say it's old hat to be anti-zionist, they never seem to query the role of the WZO (or its affiliates). And yet if you take out the WZO Israel would go from being zionist to post-zionist. How it then deals with the right to citizenship and rights as citizens would determine whether it can be a state for all its people or the racist state that it has been since its inception. Re that personal stuff about you being Jewish (sort of?), I had assumed that you were Jewish because you once said that you were unsettled by what you called the left's "lopsided" attitude to Israel because it made you feel attacked as a Jew and that, as per Hannah Arendt's position, led you to defend yourself as a Jew. Some of my best friends aren't Jews, but I wouldn't want you to think that I simply assumed you were Jewish a propos nothing in particular or what I see as your support for Israel. Oh, it's only just occurred to me to ask, if you Bob, thought that Churchill was pro-zionist, what did you think he was pro if you think the definition is so mobile as to be meaningless or at least to make me a wonderland figure for offering a definition. Really, what did you think Churchill was pro when you thought he was pro-zionist and that he seems to have described himself as a zionist both before and after the establishment of the State of Israel? Perhaps Sarah could answer that one and end her confusion. Churchill described himself as a zionist. He claimed he was a zionist from at least 1917. What did he mean?</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301791648009#c860252772796084488" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">03 April, 2011 01:47 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=860252772796084488" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c8651276150484799822" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c8651276150484799822"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-73-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-8651276150484799822" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">ok skidders, you got me, three chairs for zionism! I was surprised at the mormons though...</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301793269789#c8651276150484799822" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">03 April, 2011 02:14 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=8651276150484799822" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c6888400215502980773" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6888400215502980773"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-74-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6888400215502980773" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Re Levi re Sarah, I think you have completely missed her point. If I may, I think she was saying that you set the bar high (not a bad thing: you have a precise, consistent definition) while others (e.g. on SU) set the bar low, and the difference is confusing for someone who wonders into these waters relatively innocently. I think the whole z-word debate is flawed, because of the different things different people mean. And because the object itself is not so easy to pin down: you have to specify you mean modern political Zionism, in a way that excludes, I think, a major part of the history of the movement. There is Zionism as an idea, as an empirical movement now, as a historical movement, etc etc. I would prefer a simpler, fuzzier, more general definition, like "the nationalism of the Jewish people", or "the Jewish movement for national self-determination", although you'd need to add something about Palestine but in a way that didn't exclude, say, Zangwill or Syrkin from the definition. I also have a huge problem with a definition that puts the element of zero sum national self-determination of Jews and (other) Palestinians: the Levi definition seems to me like someone defining Marxism as "believes in killing off the bourgeosie" or defining Palestinian nationalism as "believes in Jews being driven into the sea".</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301814661898#c6888400215502980773" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">03 April, 2011 08:11</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c8568003686976079848" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c8568003686976079848"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a href="http://www.adjb.net/sab/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Sarah AB" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.adjb.net/sab/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Sarah AB</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-8568003686976079848" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">[Bob - just read your comment - that's exactly what I meant.] Levi, when I said you set the bar high, I particularly had in mind your point that Zionists thought that Jews should have more rights within Israel. I would assume many people could identify as Zionist but not think that. (By the way, I don’t know John Strawson at all. I have had some brief email exchanges with David Hirsh (and a couple of others at Engage) in relation to my occasional posts there.) Bob’s OSS could be seen as distinct from having a specifically Jewish state, but does not necessarily imply that the Zionism he de-identifies from needed to treat its citizens unequally. My point about some commenters on SU is that they seem to set the bar *very* low for qualifying as a Zionist. I have sometimes asked people what they mean by Zionist but there would have been no point on that thread. I take it their main criterion for Zionism is ‘someone who might in some context feel minded to defend Israel from criticism’ yet use Zionist as a term of abuse, implying that you are an extreme right wing racist. There might be a point in asking someone like Andy Newman, but not someone who, on the basis of a single comment from me which was an implied criticism of a rather dodgy video linking Christmas with I/P, said: “Today’s zionists don’t even bother to hide their crimes anymore. That is hardly possible so they simply justify them on the basis that others have committed similar crimes so why shouldn’t they. Sarah AB not doubt will be remembering Operation Cast Lead with a mixture of pride and satisfaction knowing that she’s no worse than any other criminal.” When I said that the bar for Zionism was higher for non-Jews, that wasn’t simply meant to be a criticism of the way in which people decide who is and is not Zionist. That was part of it, but I also assume (and Bob’s recent comments back this up I think) that the mere fact of being Jewish is going to incline you more to self-identifying as ‘Zionist’ though that doesn’t mean that you are going to be more uncritical of Israel – you might be *more* critical of Israel than some random person who would never even think about whether or not they were Zionist. I find it difficult to offer a definition of Zionist. It wouldn’t be so different from yours but it wouldn’t include the bit about unequal treatment of Israel’s citizens and it would also include something about having an instinctive feeling of connection to that country. But it’s a bit like deciding what genre a text fits into. You have various criteria – and might place the text in a genre category based on demonstrating all criteria moderately, or most strongly. Thus if you are Jewish you are much more likely to tick the ‘instinctive feeling of connection’ box – which will in turn make you more likely to have given the whole question of Zionism more thought than someone who isn’t Jewish. Like Bob, I find the word pretty superfluous now – compare the possibility of a special word such as Pakistanist which was dragged out every time that *other* I/P situation was mentioned, a word used whenever anyone wanted to criticise the flaws of Pakistan and which simultaneously also signified someone who thought that country had a right to exist or who perhaps objected to Islamophobic language invoked when discussing the country.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301818941719#c8568003686976079848" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">03 April, 2011 09:22</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c2797726882911200663" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c2797726882911200663"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-76-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-2797726882911200663" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Regardless of what Sarah meant in her last comment, there is a major discrepancy from here: <i>The bar for qualifying as a Zionist seems to be set lower if you are Jewish.</i> to here: <i>you seem to set the bar pretty high for Zionism - and this may be internally consistent, but is confusing given that others set it low, eg (I think) here: http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=7394</i> Bob, you want a definition of zionism that is nice. You said yourself that "Another zionism is possible". You must have meant a zionism other than the one I defined which is the dominant, indeed unrivalled, tendency in the zionist movement and the one that you claimed amounted to me inventing meanings for words as I go along to the extent that I render words meaningless. Failing a nice definition, others on the thread, like Sarah, appear to want the word undefined so that they can make of it what they will depending on when it is used. They can then pretend that when someone refers to zionists pejoratively they actually mean Jews. She was totally inconsistent even considering the links she gave, one of which showed you accepting by default my definition as the mainstream and people on SU calling her a zionist. This is consistent with the attitude of some around here towards Israel's critics but it involves all sorts of inconsistencies with language and principles. Thus there are regulars on this blog who are happy to run with a "working definition of antisemitism" so broad as to prevent any criticism of the State of Israel and yet not broad enough to rule out bogus assumptions about Jews but then the latter isn't its aim. Debates on anything are bound to be flawed (not all sides can be correct) but you, Bob, rarely mention the flaws of people's arguments that support your own position and yet you sometimes invent flaws for your opponents. I notice Sarah does the same, eg, in a previous thread she accused me of "glossing" and "distortion" without any explanation, even when challenged. She also claimed that calling a Jew a nazi is an "antisemitic trope" with no explanation of that either. I think if we want to be consistent in debate, I know it's a cliché but honesty is the best policy. It's best to base opinions on facts rather then the other way around. Sarah - I hadn't seen your comment before writing what I did above. I can't see that it changes much of anything. If people want a state for Jews then I don't see how that is achievable without at best discriminating against non-Jews. It's curious how you have now made at least two references to what people "think". Of course we cannot know what people think, only what they say and do. If people think they can have a state for Jews but where Jews don't have more rights than non-Jews then let them explain how to go about that either theoretically from the inception of the WZO or practically from where we are now. If you want the history of zionism then that is a different issue to how we approach it now. We could spend lots of time talking about Jews working in agriculture in Ottoman Palestine with no view as to how the state is governed or who by and that might be an interesting academic exercise. It wouldn't take us very far in drawing out the campaigning issues with regard to Palestine solidarity.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301820763779#c2797726882911200663" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">03 April, 2011 09:52 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=2797726882911200663" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c7694000600261220804" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c7694000600261220804"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-77-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-7694000600261220804" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Bob - Sarah has a comment stuck in the filter.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301820833566#c7694000600261220804" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">03 April, 2011 09:53 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=7694000600261220804" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c6283789227060213386" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6283789227060213386"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-78-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6283789227060213386" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">There's gorgeous sun in South London and it's forecast to rain later, so I'm in the garden as it would be sad to miss spring. Back later.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301826090509#c6283789227060213386" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">03 April, 2011 11:21</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c1986881990154494789" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c1986881990154494789"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-79-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-1986881990154494789" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">[Having more or less absented myself from the debate for a few days, I’ve got the comment thread open on my browser, up to 9:52 yesterday morning, and am off-line, reading them through and will paste these thoughts in when I get back on line later today, so the conversation might have moved on. Apologies for that, and for the excessive quantity.] An interesting theme in Levi-discourse is that of honesty. The most common accusation he makes against me is dishonesty; others can judge whether for themselves if this accusation sticks. But he also makes it against Buber, who is “insincere” for some reason. Then there are people who do or don’t “own up” to being Zionists. Then there’s “Dr Hirsh” who says he is not a Zionist but he really is, Toube and Grant who “claim” to be anti-Zionists but aren’t, and so on. These are examples of anti-Zionisms “hermeneutics of suspicion” (to borrow a phrase of Arendt’s, from a totally different context). Anti-Zionism is obsessed with uncovering the secret Zionists, discerning the true meaning of Zionism, the reality behind the hasbara appearance. The “real meaning” of Zionism, for the anti-Zionists, is not what the Zionists think or say, but what they do and what they are. The real meaning is not national self-determination, but ethnic cleansing. (The Israel Lobby thesis, of which Levi is not a particular adherent, although he started this thread with the imputation of enormous behind the scenes power over Guardian editorial policy by “the lobby” carried out by its agent Freedland.) This obsession with the hidden reality, unmasking the Zionists, is the kinship, in my view, between contemporary anti-Zionism and the Soviet anti-Zionism that Modernity mentions. (Speculating further, this might be one reason that non-Jewish anti-Zionists are so keen on Jewish anti-Zionists like Atzmon, as the people that can “reveal” the inner truth behind the scenes.)</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301911580581#c1986881990154494789" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">04 April, 2011 11:06</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c3584056812567673339" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c3584056812567673339"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-80-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-3584056812567673339" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">“Most histories of zionism distinguish between the Lovers of Zion (Ahad Ha'am) and the zionist movement. El Al's history certainly does.” I’ve not read that many histories of Zionism, but all of the ones I’ve read give Ahad Ha’am a pretty central role. “Political Zionism” became dominant over “practical Zionism” at a particular moment, but that is not a reason to write the latter out of the history. I completely disagree with the idea that the kibbutz movement as a whole was aimed at Jewish statehood. You have to whitewash a huge amount of Zionist history to make your definition fit historically. “You're trying to make out that the Balfour Declaration was something other than support for the zionist conquest of Palestine.” I was saying nothing about the Declaration. The wording “national home” simply accurately expressed the aspiration of most Zionists in the period up to 1948. I think the history of Zionism shows that statehood was just one element of this, foregrounded by some streams of Zionism and not embraced by other streams. While we are here, though, I think the Balfour Declaration was primarily about recruiting an imagined world Jewish public opinion to its war aims, rather than any commitment to a Jewish state, and certainly not any interest in “Zionist conquest”, which its authors would have been utterly opposed to. See James Renton’s excellent The Zionist Masquerade.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301911589076#c3584056812567673339" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">04 April, 2011 11:06</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c4904878771357519866" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c4904878771357519866"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-81-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-4904878771357519866" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">“Your invoking of Garveyism was simply giving an example of an earlier abstract definition I offered.” You’ve either wilfully missed the point I was making or perhaps I didn’t make myself clear. Garveyism was heavily influenced by Zionism as well as by the earlier Back to Africa movements that led to Liberia and Sierra Leone. The earlier movements, which predate Zionism, were also influenced by the sort of Biblical language that would be later harnessed by Zionism. But my point was that these were expressions of the idea of the self-determination of black people. I think the whole idea of self-determination, or at least of national self-determination, to be completely flawed – as I’ve written in the post Sarah mentioned. But the thing is people don’t tend to identify themselves or be identified with the self-determination of other people, so that it seems off to hear a white person say “I am a Garveyite” (or a non-Tamil say they are a Tamil nationalist, or a person with no Irish heritage to say they are an Irish Republican etc), just as it sounds off to hear a non-Jewish person describe themselves as a Zionist or be ascribed that identity by others. CLR James, by the way, enormously admired Garvey, but was also very critical of him. He perceived the Garveyism’s kinship with other ethnic nationalisms of the time, and with generic fascism. Paul Gilroy has taken up this theme very interestingly in his Between Camps (and Gilroy’s Black Atlantic also explores some of the connections between earlier black nationalisms and Zionism). I don’t recall James specifically comparing Garvey to Hitler, but a comparison to Hitler would certainly be apt in some ways – a comparison to Mussolini would be even more accurate. I have compared Jabotinsky to Mussolini, and I think that Revisionist Zionism (like Garveyism, like the Muslim Brotherhood, like the Hindutva movement) was formed in an intellectual moment and milieu that also spawned generic fascism and the movements share several fundamental features. To make these arguments would be completely legitimate, by the way, and have no relation to using a phrase like “Zionazis” or, saying “the Jews are the new Nazis”. The latter not the former are obviously the types of claims the EUMC definition is aimed at. An analysis that would allow for a comparison between Jabotinsky and Hitler would also allow for a discussion of whether Garvey should also be compared to Hitler, and therefore is an unlikely context for antisemitism. Whereas hurling the ultimate offensive accusation of “Nazi” at Jews because of Israel’s actions is likely to be judged an antisemitic trope by anyone not an active denier. (A comparison of Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto would fall somewhere in between the two, being grossly and offensively disproportionate but not necessarily antisemitic; here the EUMC qualification of context would come into play.)</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301911602181#c4904878771357519866" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">04 April, 2011 11:06</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c3463164680309510472" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c3463164680309510472"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-82-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-3463164680309510472" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">“there are people who believe that the State of Israel should remain Jewish but who claim not to be zionists, though it's rare to see them explaining what the difference is between themselves and those who call themselves zionists. Eg, Dr Hirsh of Engage (the former) and John Strawson (the latter).” Not sure what is latter and former here, but “Dr” Hirsh has argued very clearly (I am typing this off-line for pasting in later, so I am paraphrasing rather than quoting) for a response to Israel/Palestine that gives the Palestinians justice and the Israelis security. Before the boycott issue came up, his academic work was on the settler far right and on the illegality of the occupation. Anyone who has read even a tiny bit of his writing on Israel/Palestine itself (rather than on antisemitism in the UK, which is Engage’s main focus) would see immediately that whatever else his views are, he is not someone who advocates ethnic cleansing and second class status for Palestinians. Clearly, then, he is not a Zionist in Levi’s restricted sense, although he may be in the enlarged sense – and, like Sarah, also a Palestinianist in the larger sense. (This is part of a larger package, mentioned above, of anti-Zionists claiming to know the secret truth behind the appearances. Hirsh calls for Palestinian rights; he really means they shouldn’t have rights. Similarly, Aaronovitch and his ilk are “simply self-identifying as Jews”; the reality underneath is for Levi to reveal. Toube and Grant “claim” to be anti-Zionist, but Levi knows the truth.)</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301911612766#c3463164680309510472" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">04 April, 2011 11:06</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c7719430545997530784" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c7719430545997530784"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-83-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-7719430545997530784" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">“another Zionism is possible”. I don’t recall how I actually used that phrase; I’ll have to check. I took it, I think, from Jacqueline Rose’s The Last Resistance, although her definitions of Zionism are even slippier than mine. I think I meant “other than” the now dominant Zionism. I think I was referring to historical examples of one-state or non-state Zionism, and suggesting that if other Zionisms were historically possible so perhaps other Zionisms are possible now and in the future, and perhaps other ways of framing the situation than the zero sum game of today in which, according to Skid, being Zionist in any enlarged sense is incompatible with being “Palestinianist” in any enlarged sense. Talking of Professor Rose... re “that personal stuff”: I wasn’t bothered about being or not being assumed Jewish. Points to Levi for remembering so well what I typed the last time (or was it the time before?) that we had this argument, at JsF.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301911621879#c7719430545997530784" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">04 April, 2011 11:07</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c1085565862930591915" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c1085565862930591915"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-84-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-1085565862930591915" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">“It was the first site to appear when I googled - Churchill "I am a zionist". What did you google?” I googled |Winston Churchill Zionist|. But I wasn’t disputing you! However, while Churchill may have been a Zionist in some senses, he was a pretty conflicted and contradictory one, no? When I said Churchill was pro-Zionist, I meant he supported the broad Zionist movement as it existed at that time, and its core aim of national self-determination for Jews and a national home in Palestine. He was formed politically in a time when racial nationalism was the predominant frame for understanding geopolitics. It was this racial nationalism that lay behind the writing of the Balfour Declaration, and informed the simultaneous pro-Arabism and pro-Zionism of many of its framers. (Again Renton is excellent on this. If I remember right, he talks, for example, about Mark Sykes and his Arabophilia and philosemitism.) To be formed in this time, to experience the Balfour Declaration, you don’t simply stop being a Zionist when the state of Israel is formed. When I said “The state of Israel existed, and in a sense therefore Zionism became redundant”, I put it wrong. Because Zionism had a new lease of life after 1948, as it became the project of nation-building. But by the 1980s, when I was formed politically, the nation-building period was basically over, and it seemed utterly irrelevant to be a Zionist or not a Zionist – the “Pakistanist” situation Sarah mentions.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301911629705#c1085565862930591915" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">04 April, 2011 11:07</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c3348064872093801958" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c3348064872093801958"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-85-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-3348064872093801958" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">“It's curious how you have now made at least two references to what people "think". Of course we cannot know what people think, only what they say and do.”/ “We could spend lots of time talking about Jews working in agriculture in Ottoman Palestine with no view as to how the state is governed or who by and that might be an interesting academic exercise.” I tend to assume we can usually infer something of what people think by what they say/write, but I take the point. But the anti-Zionist hermeneutics of suspicion means that means is that what people say and do is describes as mere illusion. Hirsh and Toube and Grant say X, but “really” they think Y. And as for what they “do”, well largely they write stuff for English-language audiences. Except that according to the anti-Zionist hermeneutics they are “really” engaged in ethnic cleansing. And, really, dissecting what Sarah and I say and write and do is about as academic as talking about Jews in Ottoman Palestine for all the impact we have on what happens in Tel Aviv, Hebron or Gaza!</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301911639650#c3348064872093801958" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">04 April, 2011 11:07</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c4854046777723083278" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c4854046777723083278"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-86-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-4854046777723083278" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Bob - you are not averse to falsely accusing people of dishonesty. Once you cut a comment of mine to make it look like I had omitted something I had included. That alone will make me say that you are dishonest when it suits. I also think your politics are prejudice rather than reality based and so you sometimes have to tweak reality to fit the prejudice. Anyway, I'll try to deal with your points in order: Buber, I didn't assert that he was insincere, I said "I doubt Buber's sincerity from what I have read but his view of bi-nationalism still involved special status for Jews and ultimately restrictions on Arabs and other non-Jews". An honourable thing for you to do would be to ask what I have read and what leads me to that conclusion. Your worry appears to be that i can support what I believe by reference to known facts. I didn't say that Hirsh, Toube and Grant were lying by saying that they are non or anti-zionist. I said there are people with the same positions on the question of a state for Jews, some of whom describe themselves as non-zionist, some as anti-zionist and some as zionist. It's hard for me to believe that you thought I was saying there were lying from what I actually said. I was actually saying that there is inconsistency between how people describe themselves over the same worldview which makes it difficult to arrive at a definitive answer to the question "what is a zionist?". The Guardian is pro-Israel in that it supports the idea of a state specially for Jews. It doesn't take enormous power to shift the Guardian. The "hidden reality" stuff is pretentious twaddle. I see what anyone can and does see. Freedland is a self-described zionist and he says that Jews are entitled to a specifically Jewish state. It so happens that that state is based on ethnic cleansing. He has lied to smear Israel's Jewish critics and his writing has revealed a barely concealed racism towards Palestinians. I don't care if the Guardian is throwing sops to a lobby against its will or if pro-zionism is its will. But to attempt to reduce the very idea of a powerful Israel lobby to an absurdity isn't simply dishonest, it's ludicrous. And don't forget, I showed you a whole load of text from the man himself saying that the Guardian supports Israel. So he doesn't lie about everything.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301964190901#c4854046777723083278" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">05 April, 2011 01:43 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=4854046777723083278" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c6883774907947472641" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6883774907947472641"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-87-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6883774907947472641" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">"You have to whitewash a huge amount of Zionist history to make your definition fit historically." No I don't Bob, you do. Sarah asked what I meant by calling Freedland a zionist and I gave her a definition that works for recent and current events and for the overwhelming majority of individuals and groups calling themselves zionist. Re "national home", you still haven't attempted to define it. You need to define it in the abstract and then point to examples of other national homes that don't amount to statehood or special status. The entire Palestine settlement enterprise under the auspices of the WZO was clearly aimed at establishing a singularly Jewish entity. This Renton chap seems to ignore other declarations made by Balfour and agreed to by other imperial powers at the same time. And even if the Balfour Declaration wasn't such a great zionist victory, as Renton claims, then that is an admission of the fact that zionists were not seeking simply a "national home" nor an accommodation with the existing non-Jewish communities, but a state specially for Jews that severely prejudiced the rights of the non-Jewish communities. And wasn't so great for existing Jewish communities either.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301964802414#c6883774907947472641" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">05 April, 2011 01:53 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=6883774907947472641" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c8931785917278437368" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c8931785917278437368"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-88-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-8931785917278437368" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">I can't believe you're still promoting the EUMC working definition that you claimed earlier to have so many problems with. It was produced by the American Jewish Committee to prevent criticism of the State of Israel. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. It has now been adopted by Birmingham Uni students guild/union to vet future speakers. Check out the Jewish Chronicle for how it all happened. Anyway, I know it wouldn't be used against CLR James if he compared anyone but Israel to the nazis. The WD isn't aimed at defending anything or anybody other than Israel and its supporters. No hidden meaning there. It's in our faces. The "could" and "context" provisos are a sham and you know it. You are simply being dishonest as is the working definition. Anyway, let's see how it plays out in Birmingham where Israel was likened to the nazis in a public meeting, neither to a rabbi nor an Israeli ambassador.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301965167241#c8931785917278437368" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">05 April, 2011 01:59 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=8931785917278437368" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c3150777151653496380" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c3150777151653496380"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-89-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-3150777151653496380" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><i>Not sure what is latter and former here, but “Dr” Hirsh has argued very clearly (I am typing this off-line for pasting in later, so I am paraphrasing rather than quoting) for a response to Israel/Palestine that gives the Palestinians justice and the Israelis security. </i> Dr Hirsh claims to be a non-zionist and John Strawson claims to be a zionist and yet both believe that Israel should be a Jewish state or a state for Jews. What does justice for Palestinians mean? And what does security for Israel mean? I suspect it is vacuous nonsense but at least try to explain in a way that is consistent with Hirsh professed belief that arguments against Israel existence as a Jewish state are antisemitic. Hirsh is on record saying that the UK Labour Party's support in 1944 for the removal of the Arabs from Palestine was an acceptable response to news of the holocaust. I am not sure that he has even ever admitted that the Palestinians have suffered ethnic cleansing. He tends to promote Isaac Deutscher's "burning building" nonsense on how the zionist colonisation, conquest and ethnic cleansing of Palestine came about. I think you'll find that most of what Hirsh claims is antisemitism is criticism of Israel and calls for boycott though he did find an instance of antisemitism in a small circulation Greek newspaper. He didn't criticise cast lead. I think you need to ask him what he means by "justice for the Palestinians". I think you'll find he wants a state for Jews throughout most of Palestine and a state with no Jews in the rest of Palestine. I see you revisiting the Toube/Grant and so on stuff. I merely said that they claim to be anti-zionist and yet they have the same views of others who claim to be zionists. They are against the right of ethnically cleansed Palestinians to return to their homeland. Your hissy fits are so childish and you try to act so intellectual. Aaronovitch, Nich Cohen and Julie Burchill have each claimed to be Jewish and non-Jewish at different times. Check it out for yourself. I just know what they've written that's all. As it happens, Burchill doesn't do it now and I saw Aaronovich distancing himself from former claims. Cohen said in an article I think you have referred to, that he hasn't had any Jews in his family for over a hundred years. Now he says he is Jewish. He also used the name Baruch Spinoza to accuse me of self-loathing sophistry and to accuse George Galloway of antisemitism. But that's another story.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301966019438#c3150777151653496380" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">05 April, 2011 02:13 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=3150777151653496380" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c8128245932508558185" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c8128245932508558185"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-90-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-8128245932508558185" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">You'll have to check? You'll have to check what you wrote? You can write screen after screen misrepresenting what I wrote, not to mention the complete bollocks you've written defending some of the dodgiest of characters and you don't even know what you wrote. I don't, as a general rule, have to check what I wrote because I am totally honest in these discussions. You say what you think will play best with readers. I say what I believe to be true. Therefore if I am called on something I wrote, I know straight away if I would say such a thing. You will say anything to promote your prejudice based politics. It needs checking and rechecking. You went to the trouble of saying that the "lopsided attitude of the left towards Israel" made you feel attacked as a Jew and that made you "defend yourself as a Jew" pace Hannah Arendt. I'm sorry if I remember the claims you make that you subsequently regret of forget. Another reason why honesty is the best policy. But what was worse than inventing an identity was the fact that you see defending oneself as a Jew as smearing the critics of Israel. Smearing the critics of a colonial settler state based on ethnic cleansing and segregationist laws is not a singularly Jewish trait, Bob. Your assumption was antisemitic. But don't worry, you won't fall foul of the EUMC WD. That's not its aim.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301966559083#c8128245932508558185" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">05 April, 2011 02:22 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=8128245932508558185" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c6961842358095092275" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6961842358095092275"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-91-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6961842358095092275" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Churchill was as conflicted about Jews as zionism itself. He supported Jewish supremacy and he was antisemitic. Typical zionist if you ask me. I've just noticed that some of your answers are for Sarah. Are you both the same person?</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301966663975#c6961842358095092275" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">05 April, 2011 02:24 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=6961842358095092275" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c5745955407217848887" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c5745955407217848887"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a href="http://www.adjb.net/sab/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Sarah AB" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.adjb.net/sab/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Sarah AB</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-5745955407217848887" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">I didn't really feel I had anything else to add - though thanks for further comments which I did read with interest. But I just *had* to respond to Levi's last point - that wasn't *serious* was it? I do link to my personal blog after all! Though I suppose I could be a Mossad fembot or something.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301987169514#c5745955407217848887" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">05 April, 2011 08:06</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c5472487224027057618" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c5472487224027057618"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-93-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-5472487224027057618" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">No, I don't think you and Bob are the same person. I just noticed that Bob responded to points put to you.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1301993825683#c5472487224027057618" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">05 April, 2011 09:57 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=5472487224027057618" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c2785127945615878194" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c2785127945615878194"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-94-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-2785127945615878194" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">I have to confess I don't really understand most of the points Levi makes in the last few comments, which mainly seem at a tangent to rather than in response to my comments, which is fine, because I shouldn’t have let it get into a jousting type situation. For example, I’m not sure what “some of your answers are for Sarah” means: we have to answer points put to us and ignore the rest of the conversation? On Balfour, Levi seems to have particularly missed the point, both mine and Renton’s, as I can’t get any purchase on his reply. On the other hand, I might have missed his point on the various people claiming to not be Zionist. In particular, I misunderstood the Hirsh/Strawson former/latter point. I thought you were saying they claim not be Zionists but in fact are. If you are simply saying, Levi, that people take similar positions and call themselves different things (and possibly vice versa) then I completely agree with you and apologise. And this does, I agree, make “it difficult to arrive at a definitive answer to the question "what is a zionist?"” Levi seems to want me and others to take a consistent line or position, and to always express it publicly, like those “What we stand for” columns on the back of a Trotskyist party paper. In fact, of course, I’m just an opinionated private individual who changes my mind and is inconsistent, but I don’t think I change my positions for the gallery or to deceive. So, for example, I think the EUMC Working Definition is problematic and am apprehensive about what its adoption by a student union might mean in practice. But at the same time it is clear to me that the EUMC working definition would enable anti-racists to see that discussing the relationship between Revisionist Zionism and generic fascism is perfectly legitimate, while shouting “Zionazis” at Jews is racist. If it is “promoting” the EUMC WD to say that it is flawed but not as fundamentally flawed as Levi claims it is, so be it. The “could” and “context” provisos are declared “sham” by Levi (again the obsession with exposing the hidden truth); to me they make it a workable working definition. Or, another example, Hirsh “didn’t criticise” Cast Lead, as if has a duty to explain himself and his position on Israel’s policies. Perhaps he did but not on Engage; perhaps he didn’t. (I happen to have spoken to him about it at the time, so I know his position, but I see no reason he needs to declare a line.) And I think I do believe, on reflection, that Levi’s endless insistence on people like Hirsh having to declare themselves on Israel’s actions (like Fink’s insistence on policing Greens who are not sufficiently “up on the issues”) legitimises a good Jew/bad Jew trope that easily feeds antisemitism. Levi is aghast that I can’t remember exactly how I used the phrase “another Zionism is possible”, saying this shows the depth of my dishonesty and inconsistency. Sorry, I simply can’t remember exactly how I used that phrase four months ago, and can’t remember the exact context. I write quite a lot, probably too much, on this blog and in the comments threads. Some of it makes me cringe later; sometimes I am pleasantly surprised.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302001023550#c2785127945615878194" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">05 April, 2011 11:57</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c1172092871739388585" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c1172092871739388585"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-95-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-1172092871739388585" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">On the “national home”, no I don’t define it precisely because different Zionists have at different times defined it differently: a definition of Zionism I think is useful is a definition that actually captures what the range of Zionists now and historically have believed in, said and done. If pressed, I guess something like: “a land where they could determine their fate as a nation, and a refuge from the antisemitism they experienced elsewhere”. For many Zionists, “territory” would work as well as “land”, but not all. For many Zionists, the territory needed to be a Jewish “state”, but not all. For some, it would be a land where Jews were free to live amongst others; for others a Jewish majority was important (the land needed to be Jewish in some sense); for some it had to be exclusively Jewish. Similar diversity would be found among any other national movement; all nationalisms have a fascist edge and a civic liberal edge, and many have a socialist edge too. Arguably, all nationalisms are racist, and there is nothing exceptional about the Zionist variant of nationalism. Because Zionism is so like other nationalisms, I see no great need to offer too much precision in defining this particular nationalism. And I see no need to offer a definition that parts from this sort of thing and elevates an attitude to non-nationals to a defining quality. On the Guardian: on two or three occasions in the current century (is it any more than that?), a Guardian leader comment has explicitly made a commitment to the existence of some kind of Israeli state, and in this sense the Guardian could be said to be “pro-Israel”. However, the official leader comment position, and the editorial thrust of the reportage, selection of who comments etc are completely different things. The official paper position in May 2010 was to endorse the Liberal Democrats, but reading the range of comments published and the thrust of the reportage, then and now, you wouldn’t call it a pro-Lib Dem paper. I think the official Guardian position is to endorse AV, but reading the range of comments published and the thrust of the reportage you wouldn’t call it a pro-AV paper. In fact, whatever the official line, it is clear from the comments it publishes and from the way it reports Is/Pal, that the paper is overwhelmingly highly critical of Israeli state policy, and regularly publishes Palestinian nationalists, people who don’t think Israel has a right to exist and people who support one state. A simple browse through the Israel section on the website will suffice to make it obvious that the Guardian is in no meaningful sense a “pro-Israel” paper. On Churchill, as I type this I note over at the corner of the screen a Huffington Post story entitled “<a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/04/winston-churchill-assassination-m15_n_844475.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Zionist Terrorist Attempted To Assassinate Winston Churchill: M15 Report</a>”, and I just read Boffy’s <a href="http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2011/04/02/the-case-against-liberal-interventionism/#comment-23990" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">comments at TCF</a> on the Allies during WWII: “Churchill was just as much a Jew hater as Hitler, and none of these powers did anything to help the Jews prior to the War.” Odd that Churchill is so much in the air right now!</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302001095740#c1172092871739388585" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">05 April, 2011 11:58</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c3166465359370038230" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c3166465359370038230"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-96-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-3166465359370038230" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">I don't think there's much to add here except, regarding Dr Hirsh. I don't think people generally or Jews in particular need to take a stand on the question of Palestine but he does take a stand on Palestine. He claims his site is anti-racist and against antisemitism and that it came into being specifically to oppose a boycott of Israeli academic institutions. He also persistently asserts that there are parameters to any political debate on any final status situation between Israel and the Palestinians and he seeks to set parameters as to how, the two state/no return model can be brought about, ie with no pressure on Israel but with nothing said about the pressure placed on the Palestinians. You now say that he wants security for Israel and justice for Palestinians. And yet neither of these are explained. What, eg, is Israel securing if not Jewish supremacy throughout most, if not all, of Palestine? And how can there be justice for Palestinians if Israel is securing Jewish supremacy? And, given the fact that Hirsh clearly does take a stand on Israel/Palestine and that you say he wants justice for the Palestinians, you might think he would say a critical something about cast lead. I just remember at the time him comparing a Palestinian and an Israeli student's objections (I think it was a picket) to Tel Aviv centenary celebrations to the nazis trying to stop Jews attending university in Germany by way of a rather striking image posted to the Engage site at the time. http://tinyurl.com/3e4t259 And when news came through of a university destroyed in Gaza, I checked the Engage site and there was a post on an antisemitic article in a small circulation Greek newspaper. Also, Dr Hirsh claims that most antisemitism is expressed as anti-zionism and that anti-zionism (as in seeking the abolition of Jewish statehood) is predictive of antisemitism. This leads to him being very protective of Israel and, at best, dismissive of its critics, sometimes in antisemitic terms. http://tinyurl.com/3bctmba In fact I think you will find that most of the Engage output amounts to either positive defences of Israel or attacks on Israel's critics. Now and then there is something that is truly antisemitic and even disturbingly mainstream but that is in a minority of the Engage output. But, no, whilst I would like as many people as can be reached to come out and support the Palestinian cause, including the right of return, I don't think it is anybody's obligation. In fairness to Hirsh, his position on Israel seems to have evolved (maybe devo'd) since the start of the site. Once he raised he raised the Labour good, Likud bad standard and was accused of doing, exactly what you are accusing me of doing, positing good Jew bad Jew. Back he came: "you say that Engage wants to go on playing the old anti-semitic game of sorting Jews into ‘good’ Jews and ‘bad’ Jews. Well there are good Jews and bad Jews – Jews are like everyone else in that respect." http://tinyurl.com/43anjdq He has denounced Sharon and Netanyahu as instrumentalising antisemitism allegations as a means of silencing critics. He now makes vague references to an unspecified "Israeli right" and he claims that bad faith allegations of antisemitism just don't happen, indeed that it's antisemitic to say that they do. We're all on a learning curve, I suppose. But I must reiterate my point that I believe your politics to be prejudice rather than reality based. The things that tend to confirm your prejudice are accepted without question. Counter-argument instils in you "outrage", again often without question even when some straightforward questioning would elicit an entirely innocent and morally and intellectually sustainable position. Whereas, morally and intellectually unsustainable positions but emanating from quarters more in line with your own prejudice are merely, at worst, "not very helpful", "problematic" and so on.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302006757473#c3166465359370038230" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">05 April, 2011 13:32 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=3166465359370038230" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c2694448727871379742" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c2694448727871379742"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-97-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-2694448727871379742" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Haven't digested the last comment, because when I started reading it I realised I should check what Hirsh said, and found I was misquoting him quite significantly. He says this: "My approach is to resolve the Israel-Palestine conflict into two analytically distinct elements: the Palestinian struggle for <b>freedom</b> and the Israeli struggle for <b>survival</b>. My argument is that an adequate analysis needs to recognize the reality and validity of both struggles, even if they become indistinguishable in practice." http://www.yale.edu/yiisa/workingpaper/hirsh/David%20Hirsh%20YIISA%20Working%20Paper1.pdf Deutscher is indeed a reference point. The above quote follows on from this: "He understood the conflict as one in which there was both right and wrong on both sides of the ethnic or national divide. Israel was, in his view, a life-raft state, built under the severest emergency conditions imaginable by Jews who were pushed out of Europe. Deutscher insists that there could still have been outcomes other than seemingly endless conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. Deutscher’s refusal simply to endorse the nationalism of one side or the other, coeval with the establishment of the state of Israel, contrasts with retrospective tendencies at a later time either to support the nationalism of the oppressed against the ‘Zionism’ of the oppressors or, alternatively, to support Israel against its ‘Arab’ neighbours." Here is a later section, making the above point in a different way: " Since before it existed, Israel has been engaged in two struggles with its neighbours. One is a just war, waged by Palestinian Arabs for freedom - which became a struggle for Palestinian national independence; the other is a genocidal war that aims to end, or at least subjugate, Jewish life in the Middle East. It is my argument that a cosmopolitan framework should insist on the reality of this distinction and it should challenge those who recognize the reality of only one or other of these two separate wars. However in the summer of 2006, when Israeli tanks were stalking through the crowded streets of Gaza, when Katyusha rockets were slamming into a deserted Haifa, when Israeli F16s were blowing up buildings in the suburbs of Beirut and when Israeli soldiers were being held in underground dungeons waiting for their own beheading to be broadcast on al-Jazeera, the distinction seemed entirely notional... The way out is for cosmopolitan voices and political movements to insist on the reality of both wars and to separate them conceptually; to stand clearly for a Palestinian victory in the fight for freedom and equally clearly for an Israeli victory in the fight against annihilation." I think this is totally at odds with the version of Hirsh that Levi insists on.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302015623157#c2694448727871379742" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">05 April, 2011 16:00</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c4554997394882153599" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c4554997394882153599"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" id="av-98-06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="ModernityBlog" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">ModernityBlog</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-4554997394882153599" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><i>"Zionism is similar to fascism, racism and antisemitism in that they are all ideological positions that far more people are accused of than own up"</i> This old chestnut. I do wish that Elf would avoid politics, as clearly he knows next to nothing in that arena. Certainly in the realm of human psychology his insights are useful as those of a Teletubby. But coming back I see that Elf has quoted Shalom Lappin, and typically neglected to give the original reference, lest his characterisation be shown false. Here it is: http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=25 Another extract: "Interestingly, while many critics of Israel object to its character as a Jewish state none, as far as I know, have any problems with Palestine as an Arab state or with the encoding of Arab national and cultural identity into the constitutional structure of the countries that surround Israel. <b>Given their hypersensitivity to Jewish nationalism it is peculiar that these people accept with such equanimity the fact that large non-Arab minorities in these countries are systematically repressed.</b> Even relatively benign Morocco has subjected the Berbers to generations of forced Arabization, although they were the original indigineous people of the country and still consistute a very large part of its population. Similarly, the Copts have always faced marginalization in Egypt, and the Kurds were brutally persecuted in Iraq under Sadaam Hussein. *** <b>I don't recall those political groups that find Israel's existence as a Jewish state so abhorrent ever encountering a problem with ethnically defined Arab states.</b> *** Why isn't the same standard applied across the board here? Is one brand of nationally defined state more acceptable than another simply because of the identity of the nation in question?" {My emphasis].</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302020948695#c4554997394882153599" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">05 April, 2011 17:29</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c7456393963165226327" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c7456393963165226327"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" id="av-99-06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="ModernityBlog" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">ModernityBlog</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-7456393963165226327" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Bob, Do you remember that there's some academic program, I forget what it's called, but it analyses text to produce some readability score. I was thinking that you could do something similar, and produce a summary of how many times in this particular exchange (or others) that Elf has used the words "dishonest", "dishonesty", "lie" or "liar" to refer to others that don't hold his views. My bet is that it is more than 20 times, just a guess. Bob, want to speculate, before tallying them up?</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302021730416#c7456393963165226327" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">05 April, 2011 17:42</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c4202195368381296084" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c4202195368381296084"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" title="Nishtikeit" width="16" /></span></div>Nishtikeit said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-4202195368381296084" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">"But, no, whilst I would like as many people as can be reached to come out and support the Palestinian cause, including the right of return, I don't think it is anybody's obligation." Correct, Levi. It is however your obligation to deal with the antisemitism in your movement. If you think you can deal with antisemitism in your British anti-Zionist back yard so much better than David Hirsh, how about you take yourself off back to JSF and crack on with it. Though I realise that's a tall order for somebody who'd derail a discussion about Libya with one about Israel advocacy.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302022426024#c4202195368381296084" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">05 April, 2011 17:53</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c6611938268280346373" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6611938268280346373"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" id="av-101-06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="ModernityBlog" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">ModernityBlog</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6611938268280346373" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">"But I must reiterate my point that I believe your politics to be prejudice rather than reality based." Bob, I am slowly, after coming back, reading this thread and there are some good bits (mostly in response to Elf's CONSTANT accusation of bad faith by others, which is one of his common theme). But, really, how do you put up with his shite: <b>"I believe your politics to be prejudice rather than reality based."</b></div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302022845284#c6611938268280346373" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">05 April, 2011 18:00</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c5685108365516095712" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c5685108365516095712"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-102-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-5685108365516095712" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Bob - you seem to have avoided my point: <i>You now say that he wants security for Israel and justice for Palestinians. And yet neither of these are explained. What, eg, is Israel securing if not Jewish supremacy throughout most, if not all, of Palestine? And how can there be justice for Palestinians if Israel is securing Jewish supremacy?</i> You've simply replaced the word "justice" with the word "freedom". I think you will find that Hirsh posits the idea that it was and is other Arabs who are responsible for the injustice and lack of freedom suffered by the Palestinians. Deutscher does endorse one side, he claims that Arabs attacked Jews in 1948 and that that was the start of the conflict. He ignores the settlement of Palestine by zionists since the 1890s.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302060027007#c5685108365516095712" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">06 April, 2011 04:20 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=5685108365516095712" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c6683147428830344849" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6683147428830344849"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-103-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6683147428830344849" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Hirsh actually describes Arab intentions as genocidal and makes out that the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians (which you, Bob, claim was unsuccessful) was simply a defence against that. <i>"It was, in 1948, the Arab nationalist regimes which launched the second genocidal offensive of the decade against the Jews. As it turned out, it was the Palestinians and not the Jews who were the chief victims of this pan-Arabist aggression. The Palestinians suffered terribly as a result of the subordination of their own national interest to the ideology of Arab nationalism. Many Arab states, to this day, refuse to allow Palestinians to live as equal citizens. Lebanon, Jordan and the 'Syrian Arab Republic' keep the descendants of the Palestinian refugees corralled, with the collusion of the UN, into 'refugee camps' so that their symbolic value as victims of Israeli oppression may continue to be exploited.</i> http://www.dissentmagazine.org/democratiya/article_pdfs/d14ShawHirsh-1.pdf Sheesh! I hadn't noticed the quotes around "refugee camps". But Hirsh wants justice and freedom for the Palestinians and he doesn't, or in that correspondence, didn't see Israel or zionism as being responsible for the injustices the Palestinians suffer or the lack of freedom. You might want to read the whole correspondence with Martin Shaw but it involves `Hirsh "absolutely contesting....a pre-planned campaign of ethnic cleansing, theft and genocide [by Israel or zionist forces". Does this "contesting" form a part of his "anti-racist campaign against antisemitism"? If it is then he is doing precisely what you, Bob, said he doesn't do. So let's read on: "Left antizionist discourse owes much to its anti-Semitic Soviet heritage. The current boycott campaign relies on rhetoric similar to that which was used in the state purges of Jews from Polish and East German universities in 1968." No examples given. Thankfully, if what bob is saying about the working definition is true, antisemitism monitors will distinguish between expulsions of Jews using zionism as an excuse and calling on the general public or academics to boycott a state based on colonial settlement, ethnic cleansing and segregationist laws. But Hirsh appears here to be accusing Israel's opponents of antisemitism simply for believing and promoting a version of history that seems to tally far better with what is documented and known and has been detailed by Israel advocates and detractors alike. He also advocates the incorporation of the working definition into the laws of member states of the EU. But still, if, as you suggest, he expresses himself better in private conversation than he does or did in print, that's fine.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302060091610#c6683147428830344849" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">06 April, 2011 04:21 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=6683147428830344849" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c6387439205648818321" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6387439205648818321"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-104-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6387439205648818321" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Moddy - I was pointing out what Lappin and Cohen were saying about Israel's need for undemocratic laws restricting the rights of non-Jews in Palestine. What he said about Arab states and Palestinian aspirations is completely irrelevant to his discussion about a "democratic Jewish state" with Adrian Cohen. I was simply responding to Bob's remark that when the immediate victims of the nakba are all dead, the problem will be solved. He then said he was only joking but the point is a serious one as the discussion between Cohen and Lappin attests. Re: "I believe your politics to be prejudice rather than reality based." It isn't shite. It's based on observations of, er, reality. I see what I see and I make up my mind. You make up your mind, then you see what you see, same with Bob. Examples are legion but can we wrap this up now?</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302060119420#c6387439205648818321" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">06 April, 2011 04:21 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=6387439205648818321" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c3091864893148007238" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c3091864893148007238"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" title="skidmarx" width="16" /></span></div>skidmarx said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-3091864893148007238" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><i>Bob's remark that when the immediate victims of the nakba are all dead, the problem will be solved.</i> I could point out that if "nakba" is replaced by "Holocaust", the remark wouldn't be written off as a joke. I'm tempted to point out that rather than the z-word problem being one of misattribution, it is far more of any use of Zionists/Israelis/Jews being used as a target for an allegation of anti-semitism to avoid discussing the politics of the issue.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302080574210#c3091864893148007238" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">06 April, 2011 10:02</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c7669305325532790090" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c7669305325532790090"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-106-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-7669305325532790090" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">I just noticed that Skid recommended, by way of that great humanitarian Kevin Ovenden, Mahmood Mamdani, someone I see as an apologist for genocide in the Gibbs model. Last time I mentioned him (on a previous occasion when Socialist Unity pushed Mamdani), I wrote: be sure and follow the links provided by <a href="http://www.links.org.au/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Terry Townsend</a>: <a href="http://links.org.au/node/815" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">here</a>,<a href="http://links.org.au/node/952" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">here</a>, <a href="http://www.ssrc.org/blogs/darfur/category/darfur/saviors-and-survivors/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">here</a>, and also read <a href="http://www.lrb.co.uk/v30/n24/letters.html" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">RW Johnson's response</a> on Mamdani's apologia for Mugabe. The review snippets on the Princeton University Press website, by the way, are classics of the genre. When I see film posters saying '"fantastic action scenes" - Daily Telegraph', I can't help but wonder if the Telegraph actually said "apart from the fantastic action scenes in the first ten minutes this film is pure shite". That's what Princeton have done here. Look at the <a href="http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/pdfs/packer-6.pdf" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Dissent review</a> they quote from. A more representative quote might be this: "Mamdani's attempt to make the genocide thinkable is remarkably successful—until he comes to the genocide itself. Then his approach becomes utterly inadequate, and its inadequacy leads him to make some dubious judgments about the genocide and the political landscape left in its bloody wake." Or: "Up to the end of the colonial era, Mamdani's theory illuminates the commonly accepted historical account in a way that makes this book a genuinely original contribution to understanding the Rwandan catastrophe. But with the so-called "social revolution" of 1959, the relation of his claims to the facts begins to provoke more questions than insights." Or: "Mamdani accords the Hutu desire for power an emancipatory status not borne out by the facts he adduces to it. Everything that followed independence in 1962 shows that the Hutu leaders wanted majority rule, not because they believed in democratic principles, but because they wanted to rule.Mamdani's argument gives him a dubious opportunity to see the four decades since independence in terms of the purported defense of "the gains" of the "social revolution," which makes Hutu violence slightly more legitimate." Or: "In a book dedicated to making it "thinkable," the genocide itself occupies fewer than twenty pages. It has an air of unreality; after so much talk of politics and identity, the raw facts of murder by machete never reach the page. Without ever being legitimated, in Mamdani's version the genocide becomes one more event in a history of political conflict, rather than a crime of such magnitude that in some ways Rwandan history—ordinary history,the struggle for power between groups, the desire to live in peace on the part of individuals—stopped on April 6, 1994, and when it resumed nothing could be the same again. It is the greatest failure of Mamdani's book that the genocide (not the perfunctory one in its pages, but the one we know from other accounts and from whatever effort our own imaginations can make) comes across not as the culmination of everything he's discussed beforehand, but as something mysteriously apart." The <a href="http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/57042/jeffrey-herbst/the-unanswered-question-attempting-to-explain-the-rwandan-genocid?page=2" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Foreign Affairs review</a> quoted IS positive, but goes on to say: "the imbalance between the book's elaborate theoretical and historical apparatus and its empirical evidence is a central problem".</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302084352099#c7669305325532790090" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">06 April, 2011 11:05</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c6988751822880766725" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6988751822880766725"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-107-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6988751822880766725" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Meanwhile the Victoria Brittain review in the Guardian doesn't seem to exist. (Instead, the Guardian published <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/jun/11/darfur-sudan-genocide-mamdani?INTCMP=SRCH" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Eric Reeves</a> dismissing Mamdani as glib, dishonest and ideologically motivated.) The H-Net review quoted doesn;t seem to exist. (Instead H-Net <a href="http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=9362" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">published </a>an even handed review pointing out some inaccuracies and calling him extreme.) The Independent's review isn't on-line either, if it exists.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302084357366#c6988751822880766725" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">06 April, 2011 11:05</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c8406422329798283449" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c8406422329798283449"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-108-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-8406422329798283449" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><em>Examples are legion but can we wrap this up now?</em> Any time you like Mark! It is utterly absurd for me to reply to the idea that my politics are prejudice-based while yours are reality-based, or the shocking charge that I go easier on my friends than on my enemies. I didn't exactly say I was "only joking" about everything would be OK when the victims of the Nakba are dead. Rather, I was (clumsily) pointing out the utter absurdity of using 1948 as year zero when it comes to have the right to have rights, simply because it is "in living memory". The bizarre Holocaust comparison actually sharpens this: justice will not come when the Shoah is simply no longer in living memory. I can't really follow what you're saying about Hirsh. I'll try and read it more carefully and maybe reply, not that I feel the need to answer for him. I personally think "survival" and "security" are rather different things, and that "justice" and "freedom" are rather different things, but fair enough if you don't.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302084893879#c8406422329798283449" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">06 April, 2011 11:14</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c7608962856846720997" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c7608962856846720997"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-109-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-7608962856846720997" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Hirsh: <em>ebanon, Jordan and the 'Syrian Arab Republic' keep the descendants of the Palestinian refugees corralled, with the collusion of the UN, into 'refugee camps' so that their symbolic value as victims of Israeli oppression may continue to be exploited.</em> http://www.dissentmagazine.org/democratiya/article_pdfs/d14ShawHirsh-1.pdf Levi: <em>Sheesh! I hadn't noticed the quotes around "refugee camps".</em> I completely agree with Hirsh on this. How are Palestinians treated in Jordan? Are they allowed to live the full lives of equal citizens? Why are they kept as second class citizens in such places dependent on UN aid? Can you really still call somewhere like Wihdat as a "camp", a place Electronic Intifada calls "a suburb of east Amman" http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article3262.shtml (check the photos)? Or Ain al-Hilweh in Lebanon (pic at http://www.mideastmonitor.org/issues/0812/0812_1.htm )? Why are Palestinians kept there as second class citizens, eating rotten vegetables and barely accessing basic health care? Or Yarnouk in Syria, where a quarter of a million Palestinians live? See image and interview here: http://vcnv.org/life-in-the-yarmouk-camp-an-interview-with-mazen-rabia A clue to why Syria wants them to be thought of as refugees in camps: "We live exactly like Syrians, but we haven’t political rights. We can’t participate in Syrian parties, so we have a different cause. This is why the Palestinians are involved in Palestinian movement and not in Syrian political… For example, we don’t talk about democracy in Syria. This is not our issue for the Palestinian. This is not our problem. It is the problem of the Syrian."</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302086147719#c7608962856846720997" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">06 April, 2011 11:35</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c2159824991884805706" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c2159824991884805706"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-110-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-2159824991884805706" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Levi, I did not say that Hirsh does not have a view on Palestine, and only fights antisemitism. If I'd said Engage exists to fight antisemitism and not to take a position on Israel, I'd stand by that, or if I said that that there is no reason we should expect Hirsh to take a public "position" on every single aspect of the I/P conflict. He is perfectly entitled to contest Martin Shaw's views isn't he? Apart from that, I don't really understand your points about him, so I'll stop there. In your quotes from Hirsh, I read a recognition of injustice against Palestinians and a desire for justice. Similarly, I do not recognise Isaac Deutscher from your your "reality-based" caricature of him. Here is my "prejudice-based" version, writing in 1967 in NLR:<em>"Israel promised not merely to give the survivors of the EuropeanJewish communities a ‘National Home’ but also to free them from the fatal stigma. This was the message of the kibbutzim, the Histadruth, and even of Zionism at large. The Jews were to cease to be unproductive elements, shopkeepers, economic and cultural interlopers, carriers of capitalism. They were to settle in ‘their own land’ as ‘productive workers’. Yet they now appear in the Middle East once again in the invidious role of agents not so much of their own, relatively feeble, capitalism, but of powerful western vested interests and as protégés of neo-colonialism. This is how the Arab world sees them, not without reason. Once again they arouse bitter emotions and hatreds in their neighbours, in all those who have ever been or still are victims of imperialism. What a fate it is for the Jewish people to be made to appear in this role! As agents of early capitalism they were still pioneers of progress in feudal society; as agents of the late, over-ripe, imperialist capitalism of our days, their role is altogether lamentable; and they are placed once again in the position of potential scapegoats. Is Jewish history to come full circle in such a way? This may well be the outcome of Israel’s ‘victories’; and of this Israel’s real friends must warn it. The Arabs, on the other hand, need to be put on guard against the socialism or the anti-imperialism of the fools. We trust that they will not succumb to it; and that they will learn from their defeat and recover to lay the foundations of a truly progressive, a socialist Middle East."</em></div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302086763098#c2159824991884805706" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">06 April, 2011 11:46</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c1197476039881335120" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c1197476039881335120"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" id="av-111-06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="ModernityBlog" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">ModernityBlog</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-1197476039881335120" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Bob, I frankly don't understand you. Elf insults, says essentially that you are prejudice, and you keep trying to exchange civil views with him? Why? to what purpose? NOTHING, but NOTHING you could say to him would make a damn bit of difference. If you wish to turn your threads into to Ziocentric haven for him and Skidmarx, then I'll leave you in peace, it is tedious in the extreme. Elf is impervious to reason. No argument will make him change his mind concerning your politics. Why indulge him? Your comments boxes will end up as a three-way discussion between you, Elf and his sidekick, Skidmarx. It all seems so pointless, and wastes your valuable time. I will bow out.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302088026561#c1197476039881335120" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">06 April, 2011 12:07</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c2027502137155248634" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c2027502137155248634"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-112-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-2027502137155248634" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">I am not saying that various words, justice, freedom, survival and security are interchangeable or synonymous. I said that what Israel's is trying to survive and what it is trying to secure need explaining. I am saying that it is trying to survive as a Jewish supremacist state. I am further saying that justice and freedom for the Palestinians are incompatible, in Palestine anyway, with the securing and survival of Jewish supremacist rule. Hirsh's blaming of "Arab nationalists" for the plight of the Palestinians suggests that he absolves Israel and the zionist movement of wrong-doing and, as per Deutscher in the work that's relevant to the establishment of the State of Israel and the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians that was essential to the establishment of the State of Israel, and that commenced 7 months before the mobilisation of the Arab states. As regards the ill treatment of the Palestinians in Arab states, that cannot be gainsaid, but the existence of the Arab states is not predicated on the ill-treatment of the Palestinians or of anyone else. In fact, we are seeing the difference between revolutionary activity in the Arab states and resistance to zionism nowadays. With the Arab regimes, it is the regimes should be overthrown. With Israel it is the state itself. That is because, unlike the Arab states which have illegitimate regimes, Israel is an illegitimate state. Only Israel advocates seem to find that difficult to understand. Yes Bob, Deustcher wrote some nice stuff but over the crucial actions of the zionist movement from November 1947, he became, maybe temporarily, an apologist for zionism. BTW, Engage is now running Goldstone's Washington Post op-ed tagged as anti-Zionism! Time for another chat.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302088503952#c2027502137155248634" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">06 April, 2011 12:15 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=2027502137155248634" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c8660500452287846679" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c8660500452287846679"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-113-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-8660500452287846679" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">I simply don't recognise a "reality-based perspective" in which Hirsh and Deutscher's words could possibly be construed as "supremacist", or in which the only Israel imaginable is an essentially racist one in a way that is not the case with other nations, or that Israel is a uniquely illegitimate state. I simply don't recognise your description of what Hirsh says about 1948 in your glossing of what Hirsh says happened in 1948. Clearly, as already noted, we live in parallel realities.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302093905774#c8660500452287846679" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">06 April, 2011 13:45</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c3661255000336583857" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c3661255000336583857"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-114-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-3661255000336583857" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">I didn't gloss. I gave a link to a discussion and quoted from it in context. The reality is that in claiming to simply oppose antisemitism, Hirsh presents a history of Israel that whitewashes the zionist movement. The prejudice, is that you think a nice zionism is possible and so you turn a blind eye to pro-zionist histories and activities.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302094413145#c3661255000336583857" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">06 April, 2011 13:53 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=3661255000336583857" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c6892405500637043405" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c6892405500637043405"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-115-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6892405500637043405" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">By "gloss" I didn't mean "gloss over", I meant the reading you provided for it, the interpretation you gave - all those extra words you added in around the quote. The 9 paragraphs or so you use to quote around 7 sentences. (See definition of "gloss" at Wikipedia, including this nice bit: "Glosses and other marginal notes were a primary format used in medieval Biblical theology, and were studied and memorized for their own merit. Many Biblical passages came to be associated with a particular gloss, whose truth was taken to be scriptural.")</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302102487820#c6892405500637043405" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">06 April, 2011 16:08</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c2743056815727932230" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c2743056815727932230"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-116-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-2743056815727932230" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Moddy - you seem to want a Harry's Place type blog where any dissenting voices are swamped by abusive dross and failing that perhaps you want Bob to do what Hirsh does by simply ensuring a balance of posts overwhelmingly supportive of the blog's position regardless of reasoned argument. I merely complained about Freedland's influence at the Guardian and Bob went ape, apparently trying to imply that I'm antisemitic. He was never going to convince me of that. Bob - I didn't simply give a description, I asked perfectly reasonable questions. The Martin Shaw/David Hirsh exchange is very informative as to how Hirsh uses antsemitism (particularly institutional) allegations as a means of "effectively granting immunity to Israel against any serious opposition". Also Bob, it is you who uses writings as scriptural texts. My way is to look at evidence and writing. Deutscher and Hirsh posit Israel as a "life raft state" arising simply out of the nazi era with no regard for the pre-existing zionist movement and its expressed aims and objectives of establishing a state in Palestine for Jews by way of the "transfer" of the existing non-Jewish population.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302188218150#c2743056815727932230" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">07 April, 2011 15:56 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=2743056815727932230" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c767280801243645463" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c767280801243645463"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" id="av-117-06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="ModernityBlog" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">ModernityBlog</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-767280801243645463" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Elf, You are NOT a dissenting voice, you are a wordy crank with a blog. You are authoritarian, thick and untutored, thus it is pointless to even TRY to discuss complex issues with you. You misread almost everything and have a relatively conservative view of things. So in the same way I wouldn't waste my breath debating complicated issues with a thick Tory, I can't see any meaningful reason to exchange pleasantries with you, or assume that anything will enter your cranium. I don't see any point in turning Bob's blog into a Ziocentric heaven where you can rant at your leisure, but that's Bob's choice. Again, you are slow witted authoritarian with a shallow to nonexistent grasp of politics, unable to comprehend complex ideas. You are uninterested in the views of others and therefore it is pointless to exchange views with you, there is NO common ground. Or would you like me to explain that for a third time?</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302196228443#c767280801243645463" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">07 April, 2011 18:10</a></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c5167745180843752603" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-create.g?blogID=6630903" name="c5167745180843752603"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-118-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-5167745180843752603" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Moddy - a mass of contradictions from you. You claim to be bowing out yet you don't and you claim to not want to waste your breath yet you continue on apparently unaware of the irony. I don't see much in what you have just said that couldn't be applied to you. It is you who keeps trying to have me banned and yet you call me authoritarian. It's you that wants parties to adopt a working definition of antisemitism that you seem not to understand is itself antisemitic and which is aimed at preventing criticism of Israel (even subject to context) and it is you who says I have no understanding of politics. Also, you say I am untutored and yet I have a BA SocSci (Politics) 2/1. It was a long time ago but I think grasping politics is a bit like riding a bike or swimming. You call me a Tory, and yet it is you that rails against the left as if all leftists and anti-zionists owe their worldview to stalinism and the old Soviet bloc. You say I am turning Bob's blog into a ziocentric heaven and yet my first comment addressed the entirety of the post with an aside to Jim Jepps that I'd read his piece on the Israeli president and expressed surprise that he didn't seem perturbed by Freedland at The Guardian. Bob then flipped out about "the bad Jew Freedland". The stuff about zionism flowed from there. As regards lack of understanding, it's the straightforward stuff that I say that seems to get misconstrued. My saying that Hirsh, Toube and Grant deny that they are zionists, I am told, means I am saying they are lying but that wasn't what I was saying. Sarah wanted to know what I mean by zionist and when I told her what I mean and that that is what I invariably mean, that was somehow construed as me inventing meanings as I go along to the extent of rendering words meaningless, and that by someone who was doing exactly that to the word zionism. Finally, you say I am not interested in other people's views but that is absurd. Why would I read and comment on what I am not interested in? And what do you mean there is no common ground? Bob supports the right of Palestinians to return and he says he believes that Jews should have the right to continue to live in Palestine and to go there to live when they come from elsewhere. I believe all of those things too and that anyone, not just Jews, should be allowed to go there to live. So I think Bob and I actually agree on what we both call the one state solution unless he thinks non-Jews who don't come from there should be restricted. I doubt if he does think that. It might just be you, in this thread, who is opposed to the right of Palestinians to return. I don't know, but then it's not your views I'm interested in. You go too ape when you disagree with people. I don't like all the unpleasantness. I find you a bit of an authoritarian red-baiter.</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302218809602#c5167745180843752603" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">08 April, 2011 00:26 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=5167745180843752603" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span> <span class="comment-timestamp"> </span> <span class="comment-timestamp"></span>
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<dl class="avatar-comment-indent" id="comments-block" style="margin-left: 45px; position: relative;"><dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c327558306040277116" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-119-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></span></div><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</span></dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-327558306040277116" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><span class="comment-timestamp">Just to say that I suspect "flipped out" and "went ape" are not really how most people would see what I wrote. I was intemperate, compared to my usual calm self, but I think even my intemperate self is calmer than the blogosphere norm. I am, I think, henceforth leaving/putting any more flamery on this thread into the spam folder.</span></div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302225096613#c327558306040277116" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">08 April, 2011 02:11</a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author blog-author" id="c6555006279662834194" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=6630903&postID=8702717363359251584" name="c6555006279662834194"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" id="av-120-15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="bob" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">bob</a> said...</span></dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6555006279662834194" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><span class="comment-timestamp">I would also like to reassure commenters who have not achieved grades of 2/1 or above that they too are welcome here.</span></div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302225199669#c6555006279662834194" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">08 April, 2011 02:13</a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c7758190674263405345" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=6630903&postID=8702717363359251584" name="c7758190674263405345"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" id="av-121-06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="ModernityBlog" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">ModernityBlog</a> said...</span></dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-7758190674263405345" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><i>"You claim to be bowing out yet you don't and you claim to not want to waste your breath yet you continue on apparently unaware of the irony."</i> Indeed, a link brought me back and I like <b>reading</b> Bob and WS's points. Which is where I saw Elf's nonsense again. <i>"yet you call me authoritarian"</i> Because you are, you think there is only ONE way of seeing things, YOUR way. That is an authoritarian mindset. <i>"You call me a Tory, "</i> NO, I didn't, I wrote conservative as in UNCHANGING. My poor analogy mentioned Tory, but that was an analogy, that most intelligent socialists would understand, but clearly not Elf. My point, (and sadly Bob doesn't seem to get it) is that IF Elf can't read a few points here with any competence, then why debate him, as he would naturally misrepresent his interlocutor's views and make any honest discussion impossible? That being the case, what purpose is served by arguing with someone who CONSTANTLY misrepresents other people's views and then goes on to call others "dishonest"?? <i>"And what do you mean there is no common ground? "</i> These threads indicate that Elf is contemptuous of others' views, misrepresents them, doesn't understand them and really can't be bothered, <b>that's why there is no common ground.</b> My overall point is that wasting time on Elf, plays into his pet neurosis and discourages other commenters, but it is Bob's blog, so he can do whatever he wants....</span></div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302257571204#c7758190674263405345" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">08 April, 2011 11:12</a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c6557085844246379950" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=6630903&postID=8702717363359251584" name="c6557085844246379950"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" title="skidmarx" width="16" /></span></div>skidmarx said...</span></dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6557085844246379950" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><span class="comment-timestamp">I don't know if I've been honoured with the appellation "sidekick" before. Holy Land Grab, Batmensch! Oh Bob, I came across this quote from Callinicos' "Trotskyism": <i>The search for a “third camp”, representing a democratic alternative to both the Viet Cong and the Americans and their allies, prevented the ISC from mounting an effective campaign against the Vietnam war (Fisk 1977: 42-5). From the mid-1970s onwards, however, the International Socialists, along with much of the rest of the American Left, developed a fairly uncritical enthusiasm for Third World movements such as the Sandinistas, even though these could as plausibly as the Viet Cong be depicted as the agents of bureaucratic collectivist revolution. </i> Link, and to that of Cliff on bureaucratic collectivism in separate comment.</span></div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302280450344#c6557085844246379950" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">08 April, 2011 17:34</a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c6664441199828419487" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=6630903&postID=8702717363359251584" name="c6664441199828419487"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" title="skidmarx" width="16" /></span></div>skidmarx said...</span></dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6664441199828419487" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://www.marxists.de/trotism/callinicos/4-1_heresies.htm" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Callinicos</a>. <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1948/xx/burcoll.htm" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Cliff</a>. <a href="http://rt.com/programs/crosstalk/crosstalk-intervasions-rees-abaza-turbi/" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">John Rees</a> compares imperialism to an ill-mannered dinner guest.</span></div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302280734055#c6664441199828419487" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">08 April, 2011 17:38</a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c159814092302090870" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=6630903&postID=8702717363359251584" name="c159814092302090870"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img1.blogblog.com/img/blank.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px;" title="skidmarx" width="16" /></span></div>skidmarx said...</span></dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-159814092302090870" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><span class="comment-timestamp">http://theamericanscene.com/2011/04/04/a-handful-of-thoughts-on-libya?</span></div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302283089125#c159814092302090870" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">08 April, 2011 18:18</a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c6458099947975339170" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=6630903&postID=8702717363359251584" name="c6458099947975339170"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-125-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</span></dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-6458099947975339170" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><span class="comment-timestamp">Mod - before you jump in feet first you ought to read what you wrote. Eg you said "I wouldn't waste my breath debating complicated issues with a thick Tory". Go look. Now, just because you're out of your depth with the discussion, doesn't mean everyone is. If you look at recent posts, the ones that have had the most comments are the ones that I have contributed to. I think so anyway. And I'm more than happy to change my position on something in light of new facts or a persuasive argument, as I did on that Toby Green thread. It looked to me that everyone else was dug in. But I do wish that when you make your allegations of me "constantly misrepresenting other people's views" or "fiddling dates" or "revising facts" you would give a little more info, like what you're talking about. It's not fair simply to shout "liar liar pants on fire!" For some people, dishonesty is a serious business though I gather for you it's a legit debating tactic. Re authoritarian, it is you who wants people banned for not agreeing with you and/or Bob. That's a behaviour thing, not a mindset. I don't read minds any more than you do. Re common ground, Bob says he supports a one state solution for Israel/Palestine with the right of return for Palestinians. That is common ground between him and me because I support that as well. I understand he wants some special status for Jews there but by and large his position is much like mine. So bow wow instead of bow out but I think you are saying more about yourself than you are about me.</span></div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302298792138#c6458099947975339170" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">08 April, 2011 22:39 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=6458099947975339170" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c4644102515275353113" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=6630903&postID=8702717363359251584" name="c4644102515275353113"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" id="av-126-06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="ModernityBlog" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">ModernityBlog</a> said...</span></dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-4644102515275353113" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><i>"Mod - before you jump in feet first you ought to read what you wrote. Eg you said "I wouldn't waste my breath debating complicated issues with a thick Tory". Go look."</i> Elf, Honestly, you are frighteningly illiterate. I am making a parallel, take the whole sentence tried to analyse it in the **totality**, if you can I wrote: <i>"So <b>in the same way</b> I wouldn't waste my breath debating complicated issues with a thick Tory, I can't see any meaningful reason to exchange pleasantries with you, or assume that anything will enter your cranium."</i> Once more, because despite having a degree you can't read. I wouldn't argue with a Tory because there is NO common ground, similarly I wouldn't argue with you because you can't read and even if you manage to read something you totally muck up the meaning, is an example. As you know I am rather direct so if I wanted to say to you something I would started something like...you are.... Further, I'm making a parallel, it is fruitless to discuss things with Tories as they see the world from such a different way and little if any common ground is possible. That's what I'm trying to say, NOT that you are a TORY, but that you can't understand anything, you are linguistically limited, slow witted, incapable of elementary reason and will almost be guaranteed to misread anything. But I don't think you're a Tory, you are a thick arse, a wordy one at that. I think your mentality is highly conservative in that it never changes in any significant way, I think that you are authoritarian and have personality issues, but I don't think you're a Tory. Elf, would you like me to reread anything I've written that you have misunderstood, again? In my view, you are NOT a Tory.....got that??</span></div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302302812310#c4644102515275353113" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">08 April, 2011 23:46</a></span></span></dd>
<dt class="comment-author " id="c3529377647788218438" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=6630903&postID=8702717363359251584" name="c3529377647788218438"></a><div class="avatar-image-container avatar-stock" style="height: 37px; left: -45px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0.2em; position: absolute; width: 37px;"><span dir="ltr"><a class="avatar-hovercard" href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" id="av-127-10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;"><img alt="" height="16" src="http://img2.blogblog.com/img/b16-rounded.gif" style="border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-color: initial; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; border-left-width: 0px; border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-style: solid; border-right-width: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-top-style: solid; border-top-width: 0px; border-width: initial; float: right; padding-bottom: 1px; padding-left: 1px; padding-right: 1px; padding-top: 1px; position: relative;" title="Levi9909" width="16" /></a></span></div><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</span></dt>
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-3529377647788218438" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><span class="comment-timestamp">Of course I understand you Mod. When you say "a Tory" you mean "NOT a Tory". And when you see common ground between me and say Bob, you say "NO common ground" because there is no common ground, eg, on OSS, between yourself on the one hand and Bob and me on the other. And because you never change your position on anything and I do, I, not you, have an authoritarian mindset. And because you hurl playground insults and taunts around and call for people to be banned, I, not you, am contemptuous of the views of others. And because you can't let go of a meaningless and barely coherent filibuster in what was an interesting thread, I, not you, have personality issues. All very straightforward. I think you might have to think the unthinkable and consider the fact that it's you that isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. Also, I didn't say my degree means I can read, though of course it does. I said it negates the idea that I am "untutored". But then I'm probably missing some profound context there too, if you can dream one up. Anyway, whether or not someone changes their position on an issue has no relevance for anything. The issue is whether or not their position can be defended by reference to facts. Mine can. Anyway, check out my letter in yesterday's Guardian. No common ground between me and Jonathan Freedland, but they still ran it. http://tinyurl.com/4yt9joc I posted it to Bob's Mid-week miscellany post where it was on topic by way of a link to the (not so) original Jonathan Freedland Cif piece: http://tinyurl.com/44syzte</span></div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302334722740#c3529377647788218438" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">09 April, 2011 08:38 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=3529377647788218438" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></span></dd></dl></div><div class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 25px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"></div></dd><br />
<dt class="comment-author " id="c9215995222916429078" style="background-position: 0px 1.5em; border-top-color: rgb(119, 119, 119); border-top-style: dashed; border-top-width: 1px; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -45px; padding-left: 45px; padding-top: 1.5em;"><a href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411" rel="nofollow" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Levi9909</a> said...</dt><br />
<dd class="comment-body" id="Blog1_cmt-9215995222916429078" style="margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><div style="margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 0px;">Word verification says "losit"<br />
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Of course I understand you Mod. When you say "a Tory" you mean "NOT a Tory". And when you see common ground between me and say Bob, you say "NO common ground" because there is no common ground, eg, on OSS, between yourself on the one hand and Bob and me on the other. And because you never change your position on anything and I do, I, not you, have an authoritarian mindset. And because you hurl playground insults and taunts around and call for people to be banned, I, not you, am contemptuous of the views of others. And because you can't let go of a meaningless and barely coherent filibuster in what was an interesting thread, I, not you, have personality issues.<br />
<br />
All very straightforward.<br />
<br />
I think you might have to think the unthinkable and consider the fact that it's you that isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer.<br />
<br />
Also, I didn't say my degree means I can read, though of course it does. I said it negates the idea that I am "untutored". But then I'm probably missing some profound context there too, if you can dream one up.<br />
<br />
Anyway, whether or not someone changes their position on an issue has no relevance for anything. The issue is whether or not their position can be defended by reference to facts. Mine can.<br />
<br />
Anyway, check out my letter in yesterday's Guardian. No common ground between me and Jonathan Freedland, but they still ran it.<br />
<br />
http://tinyurl.com/4yt9joc<br />
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I posted it to Bob's Mid-week miscellany post where it was on topic by way of a link to the (not so) original Jonathan Freedland Cif piece:<br />
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http://tinyurl.com/44syzte</div></dd><dd class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/03/guardian-and-libya.html?showComment=1302335227910#c9215995222916429078" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="comment permalink">09 April, 2011 08:47 </a><span class="item-control blog-admin pid-601940178" style="display: inline;"><a class="comment-delete" href="http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=9215995222916429078" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;" title="Delete Comment"><img src="http://www.blogger.com/img/icon_delete13.gif" style="border-bottom-style: none; border-color: initial; border-left-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-top-style: none; border-width: initial; position: relative;" /></a></span></span></dd><br />
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<span class="comment-timestamp"><a href="https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=25029244376616069" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Post a Comment</a></span></dl></div></div><div class="comment-footer" style="margin-bottom: 1.5em; margin-left: 25px; margin-right: 25px; margin-top: 0.5em;"><a href="https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=25029244376616069" style="color: #cc3300; text-decoration: none;">Post a Comment</a></div></div></div>levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-46055985851462708362010-11-10T16:56:00.004+00:002010-11-10T17:09:17.271+00:00Saving pagesit's now changed to this<br /><div><br /></div>levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-10658360978482541742010-10-30T16:19:00.007+01:002010-11-01T04:39:40.551+00:00Rotten GreensThe <a href="http://greensengage.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/gprc-statement-on-the-use-of-antisemitic-language/">original post on the Greens Engage</a> site announcing the adoption of the European Union Monitoring Committee on Racism and Xenophobia/Fundamental Rights Agency Working Definition of Antisemitism appears below the two updates here:<br /><br />Update 1: <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; border-collapse: collapse; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); line-height: 19px; "><em style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Update – we have just been notified that the copy of the statement we have is subject to some minor corrections and other amendments. We will post these once they are completed.</em></span><div><span class="Apple-style-span"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px;"><i><br /></i></span></span></div><div><span style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "></span><span class="Apple-style-span"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Georgia, serif; line-height: normal; font-size: 16px; ">Update 2: </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: 19px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; "><em style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Update – we have just been notified that the copy of the statement we have is subject to some minor corrections and other amendments.</em></span><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; "><em style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">We have been asked to take it down pending these, and a consensus has emerged that we should do that. We will post the guidelines once they are completed.</em></p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; "><em style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The guidelines reproduced the European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC)’s<a href="http://fra.europa.eu/fraWebsite/material/pub/AS/AS-WorkingDefinition-draft.pdf" target="_blank" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; color: rgb(0, 68, 119); text-decoration: underline; ">WORKING DEFINITION OF ANTISEMITISM</a>, which you can read yourselves meanwhile.</em></p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; "><span class="Apple-style-span">[So Greens Engage website have now removed the main body of the post that appears below. They don't say who has asked them to remove the post]</span></p></span></span></span><span class="Apple-style-span"><h2 style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 5px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 7px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-size: 20px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-weight: normal; font-size: 13px; "><h2 id="post-1250" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 5px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 7px; margin-left: 0px; font-size: 20px; ">GPRC statement on the use of antisemitic language</h2><p class="comments" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); border-bottom-color: rgb(187, 187, 187); border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; "><a href="http://greensengage.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/gprc-statement-on-the-use-of-antisemitic-language/#comments" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 7px; padding-bottom: 5px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); text-decoration: none; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">with 2 comments</a></p></span></span></span></h2><div style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; border-collapse: collapse; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; "><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; ">The Green Party is an anti-racist party. At our Autumn 2008 conference, the Green Party passed policy to oppose antisemitism. Policy has continued to improve since. This week, the Green Party Regional Committee (GPRC) approved a Statement on the Usage of Antisemitic Language. The guidelines do not forestall robust criticism of the policies and actions of the Israeli government, but do serve to draw lines beyond which this ceases to be criticism. We feel that these guidelines are sufficiently sensitive and specific to serve the Green Party well.</p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; ">We reproduce the statement below.</p><h3 style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; font-size: 16px; font-weight: normal; ">GPRC statement on the use of antisemitic language</h3><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; ">16th October 2010</p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; ">The Green Party places equality and lack of discrimination at the heart of all its policies. Within the Green Party everyone should engage in discourse with others in a language of mutual respect.</p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; ">Following an investigation of antisemitism by GPRC in early 2009 it was agreed that a working party should prepare guidance on the use of antisemitic language. The specific recommendation from the report of 13th March 2009 is set out below.</p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 30px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; "><em style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">2. A working party should be set up to establish guidelines on appropriate and inappropriate language for use in online and other discussions, so that unintentional racism and antisemitism is avoided.</em></p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; ">Following some difficulties in the working group at its meeting in June 2010 GPRC asked two members to look at existing guidelines with a view to producing guidelines for the next GPRC meeting. These guidelines are intended to inform the party for the future.</p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; ">It must be realised that even top academics disagree about what constitutes antisemitic language and it is clear that the issues have become more complicated and nuanced, in particular in relation to criticisms of Israel’s actions and the so-called ‘new antisemitism’.</p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; ">The Green Party uses the precautionary principle in general to respect people and the planet. In applying the precautionary principle the definition of racism most applicable is that of the MacPherson report of the Stephen Lawrence Inquiry.</p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; ">It is not acceptable for an individual to say ‘I am not a racist’ if his or her words or acts are perceived to be racist.</p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; ">However in the area of antisemitism one of the most difficult and contentious areas is the dividing line between antisemitism and criticism of Israel and whether accusations of antisemitism are used to stifle criticism. Any guidelines must enable robust criticism of Israel, in the same way as if it were applied to any other country. More careful use of language has the potential to produce a much better quality of debate on the genuine issues of concern.</p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; ">Considerable research has demonstrated there is no perfect definition. A suitable definition should be able to be applied to any country or cultural group. This holds true of the EUMC definition. Like all definitions it has its limitations however it is a practical document which if used throughout Green Party discussion will enable good quality debate without giving rise to unnecessary offense. We recognise that it may need to be revised in light of the recent Citizen Act/Nationality Act in Israel. The Green Party holds itself to the highest standards of fairness and must do everything it can to avoid offensive and discriminatory language.</p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; ">European Union Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC)</p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; "><a href="http://fra.europa.eu/fraWebsite/material/pub/AS/AS-WorkingDefinition-draft.pdf" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(0, 68, 119); padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; text-decoration: underline; ">WORKING DEFINITION OF ANTISEMITISM</a></p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; ">The purpose of this document is to provide a practical guide for identifying incidents, collecting data, and supporting the implementation and enforcement of legislation dealing with antisemitism.</p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; ">Working definition: “Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”</p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; ">In addition, such manifestations could also target the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for “why things go wrong.” It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits.</p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; ">Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:</p><ul style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 30px; line-height: 18px; "><li style="margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 5px; ">Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.</li><li style="margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 5px; ">Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.</li><li style="margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 5px; ">Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.</li><li style="margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 5px; ">Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).</li><li style="margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 5px; ">Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.</li><li style="margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 5px; ">Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.</li></ul><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; ">Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:</p><ul style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 30px; line-height: 18px; "><li style="margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 5px; ">Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.</li><li style="margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 5px; ">Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.</li><li style="margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 5px; ">Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.</li><li style="margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 5px; ">Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.</li><li style="margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 5px; ">Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.</li></ul><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; ">However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.</p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 15px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5; "><br /></p></div></span></div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34); "><h3 class="reply" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 10px; margin-left: 0px; font-size: 15px; ">2 Responses</h3><p class="comment_meta" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; ">Subscribe to comments with <a href="http://greensengage.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/gprc-statement-on-the-use-of-antisemitic-language/feed/" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; color: rgb(0, 68, 119); text-decoration: underline; ">RSS</a>.</p><ol class="commentlist" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 10px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 30px; margin-left: 0px; font-size: 12px; list-style-type: none; list-style-position: initial; list-style-image: initial; border-bottom-color: rgb(187, 187, 187); border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; "><li id="comment-888" class="pingback even thread-even depth-1 pingback" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(187, 187, 187); border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid; list-style-type: none; list-style-position: initial; list-style-image: initial; "><div id="div-comment-888" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div class="comment_mod" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 10px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 10px; "></div><div class="comment_text" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 10px; float: left; width: 470px; "><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 7px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 7px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 18px; ">[...] See their new thinking on Greens Engage. [...]</p></div><div class="comment_author vcard" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 10px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 10px; margin-left: 0px; float: right; width: 190px; "><img alt="" src="http://0.gravatar.com/blavatar/ed789ff2fa38c28fddd81e51423c749d?s=32" class="avatar avatar-32" height="32" width="32" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 5px; margin-right: 12px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; float: left; " /><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 20px; "><strong class="fn" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/" rel="external nofollow" class="url" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; color: rgb(0, 68, 119); text-decoration: underline; ">Green Party adopts careful policy on antisemitism « Engage – the anti-racist campaign against antisemitism</a></strong></p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 20px; "><small style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-size: 11px; ">October 25, 2010 at <a href="http://greensengage.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/gprc-statement-on-the-use-of-antisemitic-language/#comment-888" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; color: rgb(0, 68, 119); text-decoration: underline; ">5:05 pm</a></small></p></div><div class="clear" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; clear: both; "></div><div class="reply" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 5px; margin-left: 10px; "><a rel="nofollow" class="comment-reply-link" href="http://greensengage.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/gprc-statement-on-the-use-of-antisemitic-language/?replytocom=888#respond" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; color: rgb(0, 68, 119); text-decoration: underline; ">Reply</a></div></div></li><li id="comment-890" class="comment odd alt thread-odd thread-alt depth-1" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; border-top-color: rgb(187, 187, 187); border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid; list-style-type: none; list-style-position: initial; list-style-image: initial; "><div id="div-comment-890" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div class="comment_mod" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 10px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 10px; "></div><div class="comment_text" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 10px; float: left; width: 470px; "><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 7px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 7px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 18px; ">Bialik commenting at Engage links to an interesting article related to this sentence of the above statement:<br />“We recognise that it may need to be revised in light of the recent Citizen Act/Nationality Act in Israel.”</p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 7px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 7px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 18px; "><a href="http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com/2010/10/if-it-was-reported-it-must-be-true-or.html" rel="nofollow" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; color: rgb(0, 68, 119); text-decoration: underline; ">http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com/2010/10/if-it-was-reported-it-must-be-true-or.html</a></p></div><div class="comment_author vcard" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 10px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 10px; margin-left: 0px; float: right; width: 190px; "><img alt="" src="http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/0ea0c119910ebe9083931bc326c0e9c6?s=32&d=identicon" class="avatar avatar-32 grav-hashed grav-hijack" height="32" width="32" id="grav-0ea0c119910ebe9083931bc326c0e9c6-1" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 5px; margin-right: 12px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; float: left; " /><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 20px; "><strong class="fn" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://greensengage.wordpress.com/" rel="external nofollow" class="url" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; color: rgb(0, 68, 119); text-decoration: underline; ">Raphael</a></strong></p><p style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 20px; "><small style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-size: 11px; ">October 26, 2010 at <a href="http://greensengage.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/gprc-statement-on-the-use-of-antisemitic-language/#comment-890" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; color: rgb(0, 68, 119); text-decoration: underline; ">2:22 pm</a></small></p></div><div class="clear" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; clear: both; "></div><div class="reply" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 5px; margin-left: 10px; "><a rel="nofollow" class="comment-reply-link" href="http://greensengage.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/gprc-statement-on-the-use-of-antisemitic-language/?replytocom=890#respond" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; color: rgb(0, 68, 119); text-decoration: underline; ">Reply</a></div></div></li></ol></span><br /><a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/">The original Engage post</a><div><br /></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(23, 18, 18); line-height: 20px; "><div class="post-4109 post type-post hentry category-antisemitism" style="margin-bottom: 2em; overflow-x: hidden; overflow-y: hidden; "><h2 style="font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: 0.05em; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 5px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 10px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 17px; line-height: 22px; color: rgb(64, 64, 64); border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(64, 64, 64); ">Green Party adopts careful policy on antisemitism</h2><span class="submitted">October 25, 2010 — David Hirsh</span><div class="content"><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; "><a href="http://greensengage.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/gprc-statement-on-the-use-of-antisemitic-language/" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">See their new thinking on Greens Engage</a>.</p><div class="snap_nopreview sharing robots-nocontent" style="padding-top: 0px; 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background-position: initial initial !important; background-repeat: initial initial !important; "><a rel="nofollow" class="share-reddit share-icon" href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/?share=reddit&nb=1" title="Click to share on Reddit" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 20px; line-height: 24px; display: block; background-image: url(http://s0.wp.com/wp-content/mu-plugins/sharing/images/reddit.png); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; border-top-style: none !important; border-right-style: none !important; border-bottom-style: none !important; border-left-style: none !important; border-width: initial !important; border-color: initial !important; background-position: 0% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; ">Reddit</a></li><li class="share-end" style="display: list-item !important; list-style-type: none !important; list-style-position: outside !important; list-style-image: none !important; float: none; padding-top: 0px !important; padding-right: 0px !important; padding-bottom: 0px !important; padding-left: 0px !important; margin-top: 0px !important; margin-right: 0px !important; margin-bottom: 0px !important; margin-left: 0px !important; background-image: none !important; background-attachment: initial !important; background-origin: initial !important; background-clip: initial !important; background-color: initial !important; clear: both; height: 0px; width: 0px; visibility: hidden; background-position: initial initial !important; background-repeat: initial initial !important; "></li></ul><div class="sharing-clear" style="clear: left; "></div></div></div><div class="meta" style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic; clear: both; margin-bottom: 2em; ">Posted in <a href="http://en.wordpress.com/tag/antisemitism/" title="View all posts in antisemitism" rel="category tag" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">antisemitism</a>. <a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/#comments" title="Comment on Green Party adopts careful policy on antisemitism" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">16 Comments »</a></div></div><h3 id="comments" style="font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-weight: bold; letter-spacing: 0.05em; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 5px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 10px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 17px; ">16 Responses to “Green Party adopts careful policy on antisemitism”</h3><ol class="commentlist" style="list-style-type: none; list-style-position: initial; list-style-image: initial; margin-top: 1em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 3em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; "><li class="comment even thread-even depth-1 parent" id="comment-12440" style="padding-top: 1em; padding-right: 2em; padding-bottom: 1em; padding-left: 2em; "><div id="div-comment-12440"><span class="comment-author vcard"><img alt="" src="http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/d8204d4098fc5de6aeb2bd89da002b7a?s=32&d=" class="avatar avatar-32 grav-hashed grav-hijack" height="32" width="32" id="grav-d8204d4098fc5de6aeb2bd89da002b7a-1" style="border-top-style: dotted; border-right-style: dotted; border-bottom-style: dotted; border-left-style: dotted; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); float: right; margin-right: 25px; padding-top: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; " /><cite class="fn" style="font-weight: bold; ">Brian Goldfarb</cite> Says: </span><br /><small class="comment-meta commentmetadata"><a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/#comment-12440" title="" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">October 25, 2010 at 8:42 pm</a></small><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">Better, but I do notice that it leaves out the bit of the EUMC report and definition which states that the person who gets to decide (or at least is entitled to make a reasoned complaint about) whether antisemitism has occurred is the potential victim, and that it is not up to the alleged perpertrator to deny that this has happened. That is up to a disinterested third party.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">Ditto racism.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">I wonder why not? Does omitting that let certain highly placed Green Party individuals off the hook? Or am I just being my usual paranoid self?</p><div class="reply"><a rel="nofollow" class="comment-reply-link" href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/?replytocom=12440#respond" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">Reply</a></div></div><ul class="children" style="margin-top: 0.5em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; "><li class="comment odd alt depth-2" id="comment-12445" style="padding-top: 1em; padding-right: 2em; padding-bottom: 1em; padding-left: 2em; background-color: rgb(237, 245, 250); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><div id="div-comment-12445"><span class="comment-author vcard"><img alt="" src="http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/39065c4a12fa66ba9b85cc57602fbe3b?s=32&d=" class="avatar avatar-32 grav-hashed grav-hijack" height="32" width="32" id="grav-39065c4a12fa66ba9b85cc57602fbe3b-1" style="border-top-style: dotted; border-right-style: dotted; border-bottom-style: dotted; border-left-style: dotted; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); float: right; margin-right: 25px; padding-top: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; " /><cite class="fn" style="font-weight: bold; ">Chris Fox</cite> Says: </span><br /><small class="comment-meta commentmetadata"><a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/#comment-12445" title="" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">October 25, 2010 at 11:03 pm</a></small><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">As far as I can tell, the EUMC draft definition included in the GPRC report is an accurate reflection of the version published on the web, which does not appear to mention the issue of who gets to decide, or the onus of proof.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">I think the adoption of this definition is a very positive step. Of course, having a policy is only part of the story; there also needs to be a commitment to implement it effectively, and consistently, without prejudice.</p><div class="reply"><a rel="nofollow" class="comment-reply-link" href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/?replytocom=12445#respond" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">Reply</a></div></div></li></ul></li><li class="comment even thread-odd thread-alt depth-1" id="comment-12442" style="padding-top: 1em; padding-right: 2em; padding-bottom: 1em; padding-left: 2em; "><div id="div-comment-12442"><span class="comment-author vcard"><img alt="" src="http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/55f26fb4088f29b4b4e455b060f7b267?s=32&d=" class="avatar avatar-32 grav-hashed grav-hijack" height="32" width="32" id="grav-55f26fb4088f29b4b4e455b060f7b267-5" style="border-top-style: dotted; border-right-style: dotted; border-bottom-style: dotted; border-left-style: dotted; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); float: right; margin-right: 25px; padding-top: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; " /><cite class="fn" style="font-weight: bold; ">Absolute Observer</cite> Says: </span><br /><small class="comment-meta commentmetadata"><a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/#comment-12442" title="" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">October 25, 2010 at 8:49 pm</a></small><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">Mira and Raphael,<br />What are your views on this?<br />More generally, Lucas’ notorious comment that you cannot criticise Israel without being labelled antisemitic? Would it fall under this policy? And, if so, should not the “leader” of the party be setting an example for what is acceptable, rather than what may now be deemed unacceptable?</p><div class="reply"><a rel="nofollow" class="comment-reply-link" href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/?replytocom=12442#respond" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">Reply</a></div></div></li><li class="comment odd alt thread-even depth-1 parent" id="comment-12444" style="padding-top: 1em; padding-right: 2em; padding-bottom: 1em; padding-left: 2em; background-color: rgb(237, 245, 250); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><div id="div-comment-12444"><span class="comment-author vcard"><img alt="" src="http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/0ea0c119910ebe9083931bc326c0e9c6?s=32&d=" class="avatar avatar-32 grav-hashed grav-hijack" height="32" width="32" id="grav-0ea0c119910ebe9083931bc326c0e9c6-1" style="border-top-style: dotted; border-right-style: dotted; border-bottom-style: dotted; border-left-style: dotted; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); float: right; margin-right: 25px; padding-top: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; " /><cite class="fn" style="font-weight: bold; "><a href="http://greensengage.wordpress.com/" rel="external nofollow" class="url" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">Raphael</a></cite> Says: </span><br /><small class="comment-meta commentmetadata"><a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/#comment-12444" title="" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">October 25, 2010 at 9:00 pm</a></small><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">I don’t know what is the rational for this omission as I was not in the meeting which endorsed this. But this has to be recognized as a major move in the right direction by the Green Party.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">And the issue of unintentional racism is addressed upfront before the EUMC definition:</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">“The Green Party uses the precautionary principle in general to respect people and the planet. In applying the precautionary principle the definition of racism most applicable is that of the MacPherson report of the Stephen Lawrence Inquiry.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">It is not acceptable for an individual to say ‘I am not a racist’ if his or her words or acts are perceived to be racist.”</p><div class="reply"><a rel="nofollow" class="comment-reply-link" href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/?replytocom=12444#respond" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">Reply</a></div></div><ul class="children" style="margin-top: 0.5em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; "><li class="comment byuser comment-author-miravogel even depth-2" id="comment-12463" style="padding-top: 1em; padding-right: 2em; padding-bottom: 1em; padding-left: 2em; "><div id="div-comment-12463"><span class="comment-author vcard"><img alt="" src="http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/fa5e08f258caa8bbd48dbc7c427ebb4e?s=32&d=" class="avatar avatar-32 grav-hashed grav-hijack" height="32" width="32" id="grav-fa5e08f258caa8bbd48dbc7c427ebb4e-1" style="border-top-style: dotted; border-right-style: dotted; border-bottom-style: dotted; border-left-style: dotted; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); float: right; margin-right: 25px; padding-top: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; " /><cite class="fn" style="font-weight: bold; "><a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/" rel="external nofollow" class="url" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">Mira Vogel</a></cite> Says: </span><br /><small class="comment-meta commentmetadata"><a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/#comment-12463" title="" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">October 26, 2010 at 11:52 am</a></small><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">Like Chris and Raphael I think this is very positive. I have since been informed that the circulated statement is not finalised, and there are some small corrections and other amendments. We are now waiting for a final version, as well as an indication of its status, how it will be disseminated at grass roots level, and how it can be implemented.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">I think the language of the EUMC statement is highly qualified and does not shut down debate. It does imply careful, responsible, substantiated arguments that do not reveal particular animosity. This is only good politics.</p><div class="reply"><a rel="nofollow" class="comment-reply-link" href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/?replytocom=12463#respond" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">Reply</a></div></div></li></ul></li><li class="comment odd alt thread-odd thread-alt depth-1" id="comment-12450" style="padding-top: 1em; padding-right: 2em; padding-bottom: 1em; padding-left: 2em; background-color: rgb(237, 245, 250); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><div id="div-comment-12450"><span class="comment-author vcard"><img alt="" src="http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/fd452e4d6226d3692496644835ebea59?s=32&d=" class="avatar avatar-32 grav-hashed grav-hijack" height="32" width="32" id="grav-fd452e4d6226d3692496644835ebea59-1" style="border-top-style: dotted; border-right-style: dotted; border-bottom-style: dotted; border-left-style: dotted; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); float: right; margin-right: 25px; padding-top: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; " /><cite class="fn" style="font-weight: bold; ">Inna</cite> Says: </span><br /><small class="comment-meta commentmetadata"><a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/#comment-12450" title="" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">October 26, 2010 at 4:06 am</a></small><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">It’s definitely a move in the right direction but we will see what happens when (as we say here) the rubber hits the road. And that will happen when (not if; when) a Green Party member (possibly elected) uses anti-Semitic tropes to “criticise” Israel and, when called on it, says something to the effect, “You’re only saying that because the Zionists (Jews–I mean only Jews are ever Zionists, right?) told you to and the Jews control the media.”</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">What happens then? Will this individual be suffered to remain in the Green Party or not?</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">The words are a good move in the right direction. Let’s see how (or if) they are implemented.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">Regards,</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">Inna</p><div class="reply"><a rel="nofollow" class="comment-reply-link" href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/?replytocom=12450#respond" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">Reply</a></div></div></li><li class="comment even thread-even depth-1" id="comment-12465" style="padding-top: 1em; padding-right: 2em; padding-bottom: 1em; padding-left: 2em; "><div id="div-comment-12465"><span class="comment-author vcard"><img alt="" src="http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/55f26fb4088f29b4b4e455b060f7b267?s=32&d=" class="avatar avatar-32 grav-hashed grav-hijack" height="32" width="32" id="grav-55f26fb4088f29b4b4e455b060f7b267-0" style="border-top-style: dotted; border-right-style: dotted; border-bottom-style: dotted; border-left-style: dotted; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); float: right; margin-right: 25px; padding-top: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; " /><cite class="fn" style="font-weight: bold; ">Curious</cite> Says: </span><br /><small class="comment-meta commentmetadata"><a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/#comment-12465" title="" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">October 26, 2010 at 12:22 pm</a></small><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">I find it truly amazing that in 2010 a political party’s commitment to an anti-racist commitment is seen as particulalrly worthy of praise. Surely it is no more than a basic assumption that a party would not be or condone or articulate anti-Jewish hostility.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">Maybe one needs to wonder how it got to the stage that this issue needed to be “dealt with” in the first place.</p><div class="reply"><a rel="nofollow" class="comment-reply-link" href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/?replytocom=12465#respond" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">Reply</a></div></div></li><li class="comment odd alt thread-odd thread-alt depth-1" id="comment-12467" style="padding-top: 1em; padding-right: 2em; padding-bottom: 1em; padding-left: 2em; background-color: rgb(237, 245, 250); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><div id="div-comment-12467"><span class="comment-author vcard"><img alt="" src="http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/ca7c3f01038170a61dd09e9119c5cf42?s=32&d=" class="avatar avatar-32 grav-hashed grav-hijack" height="32" width="32" id="grav-ca7c3f01038170a61dd09e9119c5cf42-1" style="border-top-style: dotted; border-right-style: dotted; border-bottom-style: dotted; border-left-style: dotted; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); float: right; margin-right: 25px; padding-top: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; " /><cite class="fn" style="font-weight: bold; ">Bialik</cite> Says: </span><br /><small class="comment-meta commentmetadata"><a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/#comment-12467" title="" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">October 26, 2010 at 1:48 pm</a></small><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">“We recognise that it may need to be revised in light of the recent Citizen Act/Nationality Act in Israel.”</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">What is all this about? The ‘oath of loyalty’ proposal? It is not now and may never become an Act – see Lozowick on the matter.<a href="http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com/</a></p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">Or are the Greens alluding to something else? Can anyone explain?</p><div class="reply"><a rel="nofollow" class="comment-reply-link" href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/?replytocom=12467#respond" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">Reply</a></div></div></li><li class="comment even thread-even depth-1" id="comment-12548" style="padding-top: 1em; padding-right: 2em; padding-bottom: 1em; padding-left: 2em; "><div id="div-comment-12548"><span class="comment-author vcard"><img alt="" src="http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/eb4b9de6f2c0599be16cd6276797d7f9?s=32&d=" class="avatar avatar-32 grav-hashed grav-hijack" height="32" width="32" id="grav-eb4b9de6f2c0599be16cd6276797d7f9-1" style="border-top-style: dotted; border-right-style: dotted; border-bottom-style: dotted; border-left-style: dotted; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); float: right; margin-right: 25px; padding-top: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; " /><cite class="fn" style="font-weight: bold; ">Winston</cite> Says: </span><br /><small class="comment-meta commentmetadata"><a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/#comment-12548" title="" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">October 28, 2010 at 12:27 pm</a></small><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">This is proof positive that political interventions against antisemitism do, in fact, work. The EUMC definition, excoriated by some at the time of its adoption as a pro-Israel smokescreen, has slowly become a benchmark. This process was aided in no small measure by the UK’s All-Party Parliamentary Inquiry Into Antisemitism and its report in 2005 – itself a significant political intervention. If one strategy for countering antisemitism is containment, developments such as these need to be properly – and positively – evaluated.</p><div class="reply"><a rel="nofollow" class="comment-reply-link" href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/?replytocom=12548#respond" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">Reply</a></div></div></li><li class="comment odd alt thread-odd thread-alt depth-1" id="comment-12567" style="padding-top: 1em; padding-right: 2em; padding-bottom: 1em; padding-left: 2em; background-color: rgb(237, 245, 250); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><div id="div-comment-12567"><span class="comment-author vcard"><img alt="" src="http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/a5d4318908690a0372fa8a1ab9d6209f?s=32&d=" class="avatar avatar-32 grav-hashed grav-hijack" height="32" width="32" id="grav-a5d4318908690a0372fa8a1ab9d6209f-1" style="border-top-style: dotted; border-right-style: dotted; border-bottom-style: dotted; border-left-style: dotted; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); float: right; margin-right: 25px; padding-top: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; " /><cite class="fn" style="font-weight: bold; ">Deborah Fink</cite> Says: </span><br /><small class="comment-meta commentmetadata"><a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/#comment-12567" title="" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">October 29, 2010 at 2:55 am</a></small><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">The Green Party has NOT adopted this intellectually dishonest definition.<br />The GPRC does not have the power to implement something that is not policy, and something that has not been passed at conference, is not policy.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">Many of us in the party, including Jews, are up in arms over this ridiculous statement which was approved in naivety and with a lack of understanding of the issues. Rest assured, that we will not let the Green party adopt it.</p><div class="reply"><a rel="nofollow" class="comment-reply-link" href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/?replytocom=12567#respond" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">Reply</a></div></div></li><li class="comment even thread-even depth-1" id="comment-12576" style="padding-top: 1em; padding-right: 2em; padding-bottom: 1em; padding-left: 2em; "><div id="div-comment-12576"><span class="comment-author vcard"><img alt="" src="http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/6515c325703e0663d54118476df32dc0?s=32&d=" class="avatar avatar-32 grav-hashed grav-hijack" height="32" width="32" id="grav-6515c325703e0663d54118476df32dc0-2" style="border-top-style: dotted; border-right-style: dotted; border-bottom-style: dotted; border-left-style: dotted; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); float: right; margin-right: 25px; padding-top: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; " /><cite class="fn" style="font-weight: bold; ">INT</cite> Says: </span><br /><small class="comment-meta commentmetadata"><a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/#comment-12576" title="" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">October 29, 2010 at 10:11 am</a></small><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">This is the bit that the anti-zionists object to. It seems to me to be a very careful outline of criteria as to how we might judge the boundaries between criticism and antisemitic demonziation. It makes itself clear that one would still have to use judgment to apply the criteria, that it doesn’t legislate against anything automatically… I can’t see what this definition excludes which anybody reasonable might want to say. It makes extremely clear and harsh criticism possible:</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">Examples of the ways in which anti-Semitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">* Denying the Jewish people right to self-determination, e.g. by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavor.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">* Applying double standards b requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">* Using the symbols and images associated with classic anti-Semitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">* Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">* Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as anti-Semitic.</p><div class="reply"><a rel="nofollow" class="comment-reply-link" href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/?replytocom=12576#respond" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">Reply</a></div></div></li><li class="comment odd alt thread-odd thread-alt depth-1" id="comment-12580" style="padding-top: 1em; padding-right: 2em; padding-bottom: 1em; padding-left: 2em; background-color: rgb(237, 245, 250); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><div id="div-comment-12580"><span class="comment-author vcard"><img alt="" src="http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/55f26fb4088f29b4b4e455b060f7b267?s=32&d=" class="avatar avatar-32 grav-hashed grav-hijack" height="32" width="32" id="grav-55f26fb4088f29b4b4e455b060f7b267-1" style="border-top-style: dotted; border-right-style: dotted; border-bottom-style: dotted; border-left-style: dotted; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); float: right; margin-right: 25px; padding-top: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; " /><cite class="fn" style="font-weight: bold; ">Absolute Observer</cite> Says: </span><br /><small class="comment-meta commentmetadata"><a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/#comment-12580" title="" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">October 29, 2010 at 12:15 pm</a></small><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">Mira and Raphael,</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">Could you clarify something for me?<br />Deborah argues that many in the Green Party, including Jews”, etc.<br />Is it the case that, on matters relating to Israel and the antisemitism that can attach to it, members have one vote and Jewish members two votes (one for their general membership) and one because they are “Jewish)?<br />Or is it simply the case that Deborah is exploiting her being Jewish for purely rhetorical purposes in her fight against the opposition to antisemitism within her adopted party?<br />Thanks,<br />AO</p><div class="reply"><a rel="nofollow" class="comment-reply-link" href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/?replytocom=12580#respond" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">Reply</a></div></div></li><li class="comment even thread-even depth-1" id="comment-12581" style="padding-top: 1em; padding-right: 2em; padding-bottom: 1em; padding-left: 2em; "><div id="div-comment-12581"><span class="comment-author vcard"><img alt="" src="http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/55f26fb4088f29b4b4e455b060f7b267?s=32&d=" class="avatar avatar-32 grav-hashed grav-hijack" height="32" width="32" id="grav-55f26fb4088f29b4b4e455b060f7b267-2" style="border-top-style: dotted; border-right-style: dotted; border-bottom-style: dotted; border-left-style: dotted; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); float: right; margin-right: 25px; padding-top: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; " /><cite class="fn" style="font-weight: bold; ">Screaming "Fascist" in a Megaphone</cite> Says: </span><br /><small class="comment-meta commentmetadata"><a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/#comment-12581" title="" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">October 29, 2010 at 12:25 pm</a></small><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">“with a lack of understanding of the issues”.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">Like the way Zionists use antisemitism to stop debate?<br />Like the way one cannot criticise Israel without being called an antisemite?<br />Like the way one cannot make a comparision between Israel and Nazi Germany without being labeled an antisemite.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">No wonder Deborah FInk opposes it. It would mean that she is left with nothing other than the resources of rationalist argument. Never the best weapon for articulating an obsession.</p><div class="reply"><a rel="nofollow" class="comment-reply-link" href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/?replytocom=12581#respond" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">Reply</a></div></div></li><li class="comment odd alt thread-odd thread-alt depth-1" id="comment-12582" style="padding-top: 1em; padding-right: 2em; padding-bottom: 1em; padding-left: 2em; background-color: rgb(237, 245, 250); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><div id="div-comment-12582"><span class="comment-author vcard"><img alt="" src="http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/db4def55071c7002a8e094d01f7cecc7?s=32&d=" class="avatar avatar-32 grav-hashed grav-hijack" height="32" width="32" id="grav-db4def55071c7002a8e094d01f7cecc7-1" style="border-top-style: dotted; border-right-style: dotted; border-bottom-style: dotted; border-left-style: dotted; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); float: right; margin-right: 25px; padding-top: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; " /><cite class="fn" style="font-weight: bold; ">Fr. Edwards</cite> Says: </span><br /><small class="comment-meta commentmetadata"><a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/#comment-12582" title="" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">October 29, 2010 at 12:32 pm</a></small><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">But isn’t that exactly the anti-zionist view – that Israel is a racist endeavour? And they want to be able to say so.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">And if other countries are compared to “Nazis” the last paragraph permits the charge to be levelled at Israel?</p><div class="reply"><a rel="nofollow" class="comment-reply-link" href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/?replytocom=12582#respond" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">Reply</a></div></div></li><li class="comment even thread-even depth-1" id="comment-12584" style="padding-top: 1em; padding-right: 2em; padding-bottom: 1em; padding-left: 2em; "><div id="div-comment-12584"><span class="comment-author vcard"><img alt="" src="http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/6515c325703e0663d54118476df32dc0?s=32&d=" class="avatar avatar-32 grav-hashed grav-hijack" height="32" width="32" id="grav-6515c325703e0663d54118476df32dc0-0" style="border-top-style: dotted; border-right-style: dotted; border-bottom-style: dotted; border-left-style: dotted; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); float: right; margin-right: 25px; padding-top: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; " /><cite class="fn" style="font-weight: bold; ">INT</cite> Says: </span><br /><small class="comment-meta commentmetadata"><a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/#comment-12584" title="" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">October 29, 2010 at 1:04 pm</a></small><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; "><span style="text-align: center; display: block; "><object width="425" height="350"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OknjF8YQwh0&rel=1&fs=1&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="350" wmode="opaque"></embed></object></span></p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">Deborah Fink:</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">“Happy Birthday to you,<br />I’m ashamed as a Jew,”</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">Howard Jacobson won the Man Booker on false pretences – it is supposed only to be awarded for a work of fiction.</p><div class="reply"><a rel="nofollow" class="comment-reply-link" href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/?replytocom=12584#respond" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">Reply</a></div></div></li><li class="comment odd alt thread-odd thread-alt depth-1" id="comment-12594" style="padding-top: 1em; padding-right: 2em; padding-bottom: 1em; padding-left: 2em; background-color: rgb(237, 245, 250); background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><div id="div-comment-12594"><span class="comment-author vcard"><img alt="" src="http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/55f26fb4088f29b4b4e455b060f7b267?s=32&d=" class="avatar avatar-32 grav-hashed grav-hijack" height="32" width="32" id="grav-55f26fb4088f29b4b4e455b060f7b267-3" style="border-top-style: dotted; border-right-style: dotted; border-bottom-style: dotted; border-left-style: dotted; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-left-width: 1px; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-bottom-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); float: right; margin-right: 25px; padding-top: 2px; padding-right: 2px; padding-bottom: 2px; padding-left: 2px; " /><cite class="fn" style="font-weight: bold; ">Mirror Man</cite> Says: </span><br /><small class="comment-meta commentmetadata"><a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/#comment-12594" title="" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">October 29, 2010 at 7:34 pm</a></small><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">I knew the video of Finkster reminded my of something…….</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; "><a href="http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/israeli-troops-settlers-clash/6sh0f52" rel="nofollow" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/israeli-troops-settlers-clash/6sh0f52</a></p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">Same tactic, same obsession.</p><div class="reply"><a rel="nofollow" class="comment-reply-link" href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/?replytocom=12594#respond" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">Reply</a></div><div class="reply"><br /></div></div></li></ol></span></div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(23, 18, 18); line-height: 20px; "><span class="comment-author vcard"><cite class="fn" style="font-weight: bold; ">Brian Goldfarb</cite> Says: </span><br /><small class="comment-meta commentmetadata"><a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/#comment-12614" title="" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">October 30, 2010 at 11:25 pm</a></small><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">Now this _is_ interesting. Deborah Fink says “Many of us in the [Green] party, including Jews, are up in arms over this ridiculous statement which was approved in naivety and with a lack of understanding of the issues. Rest assured, that we will not let the Green party adopt it.” So, she knows that “many” in the party “including Jews” are against the proposed policy on antisemitism for theGreen Party. In her usual manner (see numerous comments over the last 5 years of this website’s life), she presents no evidence, but merely asserts this. This report has been up for 5 days, and she might have known of this a day or two before it was posted. Clearly, time enough for her not only to poll party members, but also to determine their religious affiliation/ethnicity.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">So, Deborah Fink, how about your evidence for this assertion? If you don’t know us by now, then you are a _really_ slow learner: we expect evidence to go with statements like this, but I don’t expect any. What I expect (on past performance) is a repetition (possibly more than one) of the original statement, probably somewhat varied in language, plus attempts to introduce unrelated topics, in the hope that we won’t notice that no evidence has been produced for the first assertion.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">Secondly, Ms Fisk finds that fighting antisemitism is a bad thing. We know this, because she says so: she tells us that the proposed policy adopting the EUMC policy on antisemitism is a “ridiculous statement”. So now she knows better than the all-party committee (of both Houses of Parliament) on antisemitism, which recommended to both Houses that such a policy should be adopted. Note that there was no opposition to this recommendation.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">She also knows that the EUMC definition is plainly nonsense, because her assertion of ridiculousness must cover the EUMC definition contained within the policy document.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">Deborah Fisk, if she is serious about her ludicrous statement, thus wishes to become that rather uncommon creature: an antisemitic Jew who cannot be punished, because her party won’t punish her, if she has her way, because she will make sure that it doesn’t adopt a policy on antisemitism. And if she thinks that my statement is nonsense, she should ask herself why she wishes her party _not_ to adopt a policy on antisemitism, unless it is to allow her and others to be antisemitic with impunity.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">Now it is one thing to propose a boycott of Israel, in whole or in part: that doesn’t _have_ to be antisemitic (although there are all sorts of arguments about that that she has never answered, even when these arguments are aimed directly at her); it is also one thing to be anti-Zionist, with the same caveat as just above, that doesn’t _have_ to be antisemitic. However, to wish to stop one’s party adopting _the_ agreed antisemitic policy raises interesting issues. It puts such a person in bed (an unfortunate but appropriate analogy) with open and admitted antisemites, such as the BNP, the EDL (despite their protestations to the contrary), Hamas, Hezbollah, the government of President Ahmadinejad or Iran, among many others.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">I’d think far more than twice before being willingly labelled alongside such people, but this clearly doesn’t bother Deborah Fink – assuming she’s even thought about it.</p><p style="margin-top: 0.6em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 1.2em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; ">Would she propose such a course of action against a proposed policy on racism? Do we need an answer to such a question?</p></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(23, 18, 18); line-height: 20px; "><div class="node"><ol class="commentlist" style="list-style-type: none; list-style-position: initial; list-style-image: initial; margin-top: 1em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 3em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; "><li class="comment even thread-even depth-1" id="comment-12614" style="padding-top: 1em; padding-right: 2em; padding-bottom: 1em; padding-left: 2em; "><div id="div-comment-12614"><div class="reply"><a rel="nofollow" class="comment-reply-link" href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/green-party-adopts-careful-policy-on-antisemitism/?replytocom=12614#respond" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">Reply</a></div></div></li></ol><div class="navigation"><div class="alignleft" style="float: left; 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text-decoration: none; ">US antizionist academic embraces Holocaust denial</a> »</div></div></div><span class="clear"></span><div id="footer" style="font-size: smaller; margin-top: 4em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: -3em; margin-left: 0px; clear: both; color: rgb(64, 64, 64); float: none; text-align: center; "><a href="http://wordpress.com/" rel="generator" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">Blog at WordPress.com</a>. Theme: Garland by <a href="http://acko.net/" rel="designer" style="color: rgb(2, 122, 198); text-decoration: none; ">Steven Wittens</a> and Stefan Nagtegaal.</div></span>levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-59079947405338310832010-05-16T14:36:00.002+01:002010-10-30T16:19:18.201+01:00My name is Mark ElfI am posting this to try to establish who owns this blog. It is me, Mark Elf. I use the screen name Levi9909.levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-1153346232512762182006-07-19T22:55:00.000+01:002006-07-19T23:00:53.396+01:00<span style="font-weight:bold;"><h2>Heaps upon Heaps</h2></span><br /><h2>Jenny Diski </h2><br /><i>Lion’s Honey: The Myth of Samson</i> by David Grossman [ <a href="/lrbshop/show_campaign_item.php?campaignID=0409RLRB&productID=RLRB0583">Buy from the London Review Bookshop</a> ] · Canongate, 155 pp, £12.99</p><div id="article_body" class="BT"><p>Look at Chapters 13 to 16 of the Book of Judges, and what do you see there? Is it Samson the hero, Samson the lummox, or Samson the poster boy for gang moronics, for self-destructive, incommensurate revenge? According to David Grossman, all Jewish children when they first hear the story learn to call him Samson the Hero. He is wrong about this, but then my Jewish childhood was not in Hebrew or in Israel. I recall the Samson story mainly as an early introduction to the power of three. ‘The Philistines are upon you, Samson,’ Delilah says three times (just as, probably in the same Ladybird series, God called Samuel from his sleep three times before Eli the priest realised Who was on the line). The Samson story fitted comfortably into the familiar format of traditional tales and myth I was reading then (and I suppose too that it readied me for the present-day storytelling of ‘education, education, education’ and suchlike sorry political rhetoric). A grown-up reading of Samson a few years ago (the same King James Version that is offered at the beginning of Grossman’s translated essay) left me initially bewildered and remembering a large, blandly handsome boy of very little brain at school who, when I was 11, was my first boyfriend for about three weeks before he dropped me, and I experienced my first guilty relief at escaping the boredom between the trial-and-error French kisses, even as I smarted at the insult and missed having a hunk for my own to flash at my far more glamorous sisters-in-prepuberty.</p><p>Samson: the very occasionally touching knucklehead who hasn’t the faintest idea what he is doing or why, and has all the muscles of Superman and all the insight of a brick. You could imagine him doing what he’s told in an army patrol, or hanging out at a loose end on a street corner with some equally dim-witted friends, except that Samson doesn’t seem to have any friends. He has parents, he has a wife for a while, he has relations with prostitutes and he has a girlfriend who finally does for him, but almost invariably he acts and walks alone. Well, it’s not surprising: he hasn’t had a haircut since birth and he’s given to acts of viciousness generally out of all proportion to any insult done to him. On the strength of an early one-man massacre he judged Israel for twenty years, which is surprising until you remember that Arnold Schwarzenegger is governor of California. Samson, though, on second thoughts, is more psychopath than gangbanger or lovable dolt. One thing I wouldn’t call him, then or now, is hero.</p><p>The thing about the Bible, though, particularly the Hebrew Bible, is that it provides a surface story into which the reader can dive and come up with all manner of interpretations. There can’t be very many books in the world with which a reader can have such fun. Like a playground with all the right equipment but not too much of it, it offers the imagination as much scope as it can use for speculation. Jump in anywhere and read the empty spaces, the unspoken, the roaring silences, repetitions and patterns with as much care as the words (especially in a good modern translation that is true to the laconic language of the original), and you’ve got a narrative wonderland at your disposal. The old rabbis understood well enough about the gaiety of conjecture. Ambiguities throughout the Torah caused and permitted them to speculate and then to argue with previous (and even forthcoming) speculations, building an enchanting dialogue of maybes and what ifs. Worried about the problem of fish when God decided to destroy all life by flooding the world? The rain that fell for forty days and forty nights was hot and the fish in the sea were boiled to death, one commentary argues. Oh no, says Rabbi Yaakov Culi in the 18th century: ‘The only creatures that survived the flood were the fish. The Torah informs us that “everything on dry land died,” specifically to exclude the fish, which did not die. The fish survived even though the water of the flood was boiling hot. They were able to escape to the depths of the sea, where the water remained cool.’ This is the delight of poetry and riddle, which reading at its best – coupled with writing at its best – produces. And the Bible, of all writings, even for those of us who can only read it in translations, provides unlimited possibilities for close, quirky readings that lurk in the crevices of the language.</p><p>What I find very hard to see in the Pentateuch is any suggestion of the transcendental. After a couple of beginnings of the world where geography and biology are set in motion, and the bad behaviour of Adam and Eve, Genesis describes life starting over with Noah, who is a disappointment, and then once again with Abraham, in the search for an individual to stand as founding father for the people called the Hebrews. The God seeking out his people offers only posterity, never an afterlife, just like any secular leader. But then it’s a story told by the Hebrews themselves to account for themselves. A history, you might say, or a myth, if you will – anyway, a story. The Pentateuch is the narrative of the developing nationhood of a small group of people who came from Mesopotamia and settled in the south on the land of other already established nations: Midian, Canaan, Moab, Amon and Philistia.</p><p>At the time of Judges, the Hebrews are divided into 12 tribes who live with different amounts of tension between themselves and their neighbours in the land they call Judea. In Judges, the Jews tell themselves why they have not been welcomed with open arms by those who were already there. It was, the biblical narrator explains, not because people object to incomers taking land that is already inhabited, but because the Children of Israel repeatedly sinned against their sponsor, Yahweh, and with each sin the Lord arranged punishment in the form of conquest by the strangers on the Israelites’ borders. Geopolitics will not do for Yahweh’s People: only their own solecisms can account for loss of territory or sovereignty. Once you have a god on your side, nothing can go wrong unless you activate his anger and he strengthens the Philistines against you. Consequently, the Israelis repent and Yahweh has to find a way to expel the outsiders who are oppressing his now forgiven people. In turn Gideon, Jephthah, Ehud, Shamgar and Deborah become the nation’s warrior liberators and then judges. Samson’s turn comes, but he is an anomaly who can’t be said to have chosen to liberate his people by his actions so much as kill a lot of Philistines because they happen to annoy him: ‘Strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes.’ God seems to have forgiven the Hebrews again so he obliges Samson and ‘the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.’ An unintended national liberation on Samson’s part; a somewhat casual attitude to life on the part of God.</p><p>Some modern commentators, though, write Samson up as a ‘tough Jew’, one who strikes back at his enemies and nails the calumny of Jewish victimhood. When his fellow Judeans, cowering under the yoke of the oppressing Philistines, are prepared with a shrug of apology to give Samson up to them as they demand, he allows himself to be led into the enemy’s midst and smites them good and proper. He lets rip with a handy jawbone. ‘And Samson said, With the jawbone of an ass, heaps upon heaps, with the jaw of an ass have I slain a thousand men.’ But this is only the middle of a long inventory of smitings. First Samson killed 30 men of Ashkelon for their clothes to pay off a bet made with his wedding guests who had wheedled the answer to his riddle out of his Philistine wife. Next, after he went home to his parents to sulk and his wife went off with someone else, he set fire to three hundred foxes tied tail to tail and burned all the growing and stored foodstuff of the Philistines. When they retaliated by burning his wife and her father for bringing the disaster on them, Samson in response ‘smote them hip and thigh with a great slaughter’ and then, in a brief spasm of wisdom, went to live up on a hillside out of the way. At which point the men of Judah come to him and tell him that he is causing too much trouble for them, they only want a quiet life – who doesn’t? – and could he please give himself up. Certainly, Samson says, and a thousand men, heaps upon heaps, pay the price.</p><p>David Grossman situates the ancient image of Samson the hero, and his modern interpretation as the tough Jew (how could he not?), in modern Israel. Those who would see Samson as a tough Jew, Grossman explains, ‘esteemed . . . his ability to apply force without any restraints or moral inhibitions, an ability which history withheld from the trod-upon Jews for millennia, until the establishment of the state of Israel’. ‘Samson’s Foxes’ fought in the 1948 War of Independence; a ‘Samson’ unit was created during the first Palestinian intifada in the 1980s; Israel’s nuclear weapon programme was once known as the ‘Samson Option’. Samson’s shadow, the suicide bomber, is noted. Clearly, Samson doesn’t represent the same thing to an Israeli Jew as he does to a Jew from the Diaspora.</p><p>But Grossman is equivocal. He acknowledges ‘a certain problematic quality to Israeli sovereignty that is also embodied in Samson’s relationship to his own power’. But it isn’t a case of not knowing one’s own strength: the problem arises from a lack of practice. ‘The reality of being immensely powerful has not really been internalised in the Israeli consciousness, not assimilated in a natural way, over many generations.’ It leads to giving ‘an exaggerated value to the power one has attained; to making power an end in itself; and to using it excessively; and also to a tendency to turn almost automatically to the use of force instead of weighing other means of action’. Grossman’s discomfort as an Israeli is clear, but he is still apologising for Samson’s and Israel’s excesses by suggesting that they are victims of victimhood. Tough Jewry but with mitigating circumstances. The fault lies with history and always and for ever Jews can be no more than their reaction to what has happened to them.</p><p>The essay dissolves into a distressing mixture of popular psychoanalysis and sentimentality: a plea for understanding that pulls out all the emotional stops. Samson’s thuggery is a result of his extraordinary experience, ultimately a lack of maternal love that leaves him a stranger in the world, who will never find his place and settle. At the heart of it is a notion of the family and how it ought to be. It’s a recognisable image but as mythic as the Samson story itself. Manoah, his father, is weak, vacillating and suspicious. His mother, who is not given a name, is visited either by a messenger of God or has an affair with (could it be?) a Philistine, and although barren becomes pregnant. She tells her husband that the child is to be a Nazarite, dedicated to God: no alcohol, no haircuts. Manoah exhibits disbelief and demands to see this messenger for himself, though when he does, he stops arguing, overpowered by the power of the man/angel. A bad beginning. A doubtful origin and different from the other kids.</p><p>But the true centre of Samson’s problem, according to Grossman, is his mother (of course) who tells Manoah of the special role of the forthcoming child with the words: ‘For the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.’ In Grossman’s view, this is a child who will not truly belong to his mother and her realisation of this causes her to freeze emotionally. No woman, apparently, can contemplate the natural death of the foetus within her. It is, says Grossman, against the ‘natural instincts of parenthood’. The formerly barren wife of Manoah knows ‘with a deep womanly intuition’ that the child is to be a public event and therefore she distances herself from it, ‘something inside her is blocked, stunned, frozen.’ He imagines her thinking: ‘Will I be able to give him the bountiful, natural love that for so long I have yearned to give a child of my own?’ This ‘will not be a child who can be raised according to one’s natural instincts alone’ (though for that you might think any child would be grateful). As a result Samson ‘will always lack the capacity for simple human contact that comes so naturally to most people’. The pages are filled with such unexamined social and psychological expectation, with the assumption of what must be normal and what the consequences must be of a falling short of this picture of family harmonics.</p><p>Grossman is entitled to his interpretation of the text like anyone else, and the notion of the strangeness and loneliness of Samson and his inability to understand it is intriguing, but the normative assumptions and their presentation are as cloying and unconvincing as the saccharine family moment Grossman imagines when, on the way to his wedding, Samson scoops the honey from the belly of the lion he killed. The biblical text reads:</p><blockquote><p>And, behold, there was a swarm of bees and honey in the carcass of the lion. And he took thereof in his hands, and went on eating, and came to his father and mother, and he gave them, and they did eat; but he told them not that he had taken the honey out of the carcass of the lion.</p></blockquote><p>Grossman says:</p><blockquote><p>They say nothing, do not ask, he doesn’t tell, and nevertheless it is so appealing to imagine Samson waving his hands high, and his parents, doubtless smaller than he is, jumping at him with their mouths wide open and tongues hanging out, and Samson howling with glee, playing with his parents, touching them and dancing for them and laughing with them like any normal person, with the honey dripping, flowing down a cheek, sliding to the chin, being licked up, as the laughter swells to the point of tears.</p></blockquote><p>It is Grossman’s contention that Samson is the emotionally disfigured child who becomes the frustrated artist (the honey episode, the killing of the 30 men for their coats, the tying and burning of the foxes’ tails all a kind of performance art), whose work turns murderous when he cannot receive love, desperate as he is ‘for the embrace of a caring, compassionate parent’ and betrayed always by the women in his life. And somewhere in all this is the state of Israel. The Samson state, not properly born and nurtured and therefore given to violent tantrums and excessive – though hardly artistic – behaviour to those it feels unloved by.</p><p>And, liberal though I am, I come up against the thought: what about behaving decently to others? Just that. Even if you’ve been unloved. Or especially if you’ve been unloved. What about making an art of empathy, or simply an elementary human choice not to cause suffering just because you’ve suffered, or because you figure it’s a good enough excuse to behave just like everyone else? Perhaps Grossman would say that the unloved Samson can’t help himself and is not in control of his emotional responses. He is probably right. Many people aren’t and clearly Samson wasn’t capable of control, but the individual Samson and the state of Israel are actually not bound by the same emotional imperatives. We ought perhaps to try much harder to keep separate the lives and passions of individuals and the behaviour of nations. But analogy is apparently irresistible, though the Palestinians might be forgiven a hollow laugh at Grossman’s conclusion that Samson’s final act, killing three thousand partying Philistines and himself into the bargain, set a precedent:</p><blockquote><p>There is no escaping the thought that Samson was, in a sense, the first suicide-killer; and although the circumstances of his deed were different from those familiar to us from the daily reality of the streets of Israel, it may be that the act itself established in human consciousness a mode of murder and revenge directed at innocent victims, which has been perfected in recent years.</p></blockquote><p><a href="/contribhome.php?get=disk01" class="noshow"><hr><b>Jenny Diski</b></a>’s <em>On Trying to Keep Still</em>, a travelogue and memoir, appeared recently. She is the author of <em>Only Human</em>, about a patriarch and his wife, among other novels.</p>levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-1145336753897812322006-04-18T06:04:00.000+01:002006-04-18T06:05:54.180+01:00<span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">We had just heard about the explosion and were busy making phonecalls: "Wanted just to know you are okay. You heard about the bombing, did you?" Then we saw an email coming from overseas to the Gush Shalom mailbox, a very short one: <br />"Any comment on the latest terror attack assholes?" <br />As a matter of fact - yes.</span></span><br /><br />One o'clock. In the noon news magazine on the radio, the commentator speaks in a rather bored way of the ongoing army raid into Nablus, words nearly identical to the reports of yesterday and of last week: "The Palestinians claim that the boy shot in central Nablus was unarmed... The soldiers assert that they had shot only at armed militants, as per orders... This is part of a continuing operation to root out terrorists in Nablus and Jenin, which is already going on for several weeks... When soldiers arrive, dozens of youngsters start throwing stones, which complicates the detention of wanted terrorists..."<br /><br />Suddenly: "We interrupt this report. A large explosion just occurred at the Old Central Bus Station in Tel-Aviv. Dozens of casualties. Stand by for further details"<br /><br />The Old Central Bus Station. The least fashionable part of Tel-Aviv. The lively dirty streets which are the haunt of migrant workers one jump ahead of the notorious Immigration Police and the most poor and disadvantaged among Israel's own citizens. The place where people have again and again to endure suicide bombings, too. Today, once again. <br /><br />As always, the dilemma: Should we go there, to the scene where six people have just perished and forty others wounded, a place which is just a short bus ride away and where we just a few days ago went to buy sandals? Go there, as Israelis and human beings and and peace activists - but to do what? To say what? <br /><br />Sure, we are horrified by the senseless random killing. But we have also something to say about why it happened, how it might have been prevented, how the next one can still be prevented. But how to say it on this day and in that location? How to make comprehensible, to shocked and angry and traumatized people, that the occupation is the root cause of our suffering as well as the Palestinians'? How to explain convincingly that we must dry at source the oppression which makes young Palestinians don explosive belts and throw away their lives together with those of others? <br /><br />In the end, we don't do anything except stay tuned to the non-stop broadcasts on radio and TV. At least the extreme-right people, who in past years used to rush to such scenes with their hate placards, are not there either today. It seems that they no longer find the public so receptive to their simplistic "solutions". <br /><br />The flood of news reports continues. The number of fatalities has grown to nine, and doctors at Ichilov Hospital are still fighting to save the life of a very severely wounded sixteen year-old boy. At least two of the women killed were foreign migrant workers, and the Israeli consulate in Romania is trying to locate the family of one of them. Responsibility was claimed by the Islamic Jihad, and the perpetrator was a young man from the West Bank town of Quabatiya. In the Gaza Strip, a Palestinian boy (age not mentioned) was killed in an Israeli artillery bombardment (probably, somebody again instructed the artillery to decrease the range to the Palestinian inhabited areas...)<br /><br />The bombing had targeted the very same cheap restaurant which was attacked in the previous Tel-Aviv bombing, three and a half months ago. Three and a half months ago. Nobody seems to remember the time when suicide bombings were taking place every week, or also several times each week. Nobody mentions that that had been when Hamas was the main initiator of suicide bombings. Nobody mentions that Hamas has been carefully keeping their one-side truce for more than a year now, that Jihad is a small organization with limited resources, that the Hamas self-restraint has saved the lives of quite a few Israelis in the past year. <br /><br />A TV, reporter speaks smugly from the scene of the bombing: "The police had carried out massive detentions of Palestinian workers. Illegal Palestinians were found in all the restaurants and workshops around the site of the bombing. Why couldn't the police arrest them before it happened? (Because they had absolutely nothing to do with the bombing, because they came to Tel-Aviv for no other reason than to feed their families - but nobody says this on the air...) <br /><br />In Jerusalem, the swearing-in ceremony of the newly-elected Knesset goes ahead as scheduled, and is broadcast live. The eternal Shimon Peres is Acting Speaker. Not always our favourite among politicians. But in his speech today, he at least admits that the Palestinians are not solely to blame for the absence of peace, and that some Israeli mistakes also have something to do with it. This is not nothing, especially on such a day.<br /><br />The late night news is sometimes less tightly controlled than the prime time. The commentator reports about Defense Minister Mofaz holding consultations with his generals on the coming military response, and remarks: "So, there will be a retaliation, and the Palestinians will retaliate to the retaliation, and we will retaliate again, and then what?" No answer was forthcoming.<br /><br />Adam Keller<br />April 17, Tel-Avivlevi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-1142609882036146262006-03-17T15:37:00.000+00:002006-03-17T15:38:02.223+00:00Scroll down for Matrix in Bilinlevi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-1142370158036496792006-03-14T19:41:00.000+00:002006-03-17T15:36:11.410+00:00Matrix in Bil‘in<span style="font-style:italic;"><br />Capital, settlements and civil resistance to the separation fence, or: a story of colonial capitalism in present-day Israel*</span><br /><br /><span style="font-weight:bold;">Gadi Algazi, Tel Aviv</span><br /><a href="mailto:"><br />Gadi.Algazi@gmail.com</a><br /><br />One by one, awestruck reporters flock to witness the miracle and the newspapers are filling up with their stories. At last, we have high-tech for the religious, a remedy for unemployment, and respectable work for ultra-orthodox women. Software companies like Imagestore and CityBook are recruiting ultra-orthodox Jewish women to work. Leading the trend is the software services company Matrix, one of the largest in Israel, that has opened a development center called Talpiot – apparently named after the elite combat unit of the Israeli army – and is bringing in ultra-orthodox women. They already number 150 and are expected to reach 500 during this year. “This is a development center close to home, in a homogeneous environment, and sensitive to the women’s special needs,” writes the Matrix CEO on the company’s website.1 The rules of Kashruth are observed there, and there are separate kitchens for women and men. There is also a “pumping room” for women to nurse their babies, provoking curiosity among the journalists and embarrassment among the “girls,” as they are called there. The Ministry of Industry, Trade, and Labor has also approved a professional course for 35 of the women, and the finance ministry subsidizes the project to the tune of 1,000 shekels [215$] per month for each worker.2 “If you are used to thinking of high-tech workers as secular yuppies who make at least twice the minimum wage, you should see the technological employment projects in the ultra-orthodox city”, wrote one orthodox reporter: here they “employ ultra-orthodox women in technological occupations, some quite ‘hightech’, such as programming and code development,”3 – clearly under the spell of high-tech aura, forgetting to mention how much the women actually earn.<br /><br /><span style="font-style:italic;">Modi‘in Illit versus Bil‘in</span><br /><br />Where is this wonderful place where, as if this were not enough, two of the entrepreneurs are also trying to establish on-site daycare centers, with special government assistance, in order to better serve the workers?4 Most Israeli workers can only dream of an on-site daycare center at their workplace. In Modi‘in Illit these dreams have come true. All of this is taking place in the occupied territories. The articles praising the projects promoted by public relations agencies throughout the recent months invariably ignore this one<br /><hr><br />* First Hebrew version published on <span style="font-style:italic;">HaOkets</span> website (www.haokets.org) and translated into English by Daniel Breslau, to whom I wish to thank warmly. This is a modified and corrected version.<br /><br />1 Mordechai Gutman, “Off Shore in Israel – The New Direction in Developing Software for Organizations at High Quality and Low Cost”, Matrix Website: <a href="http://www.matrix.co.il/Matrix/he-IL/Contents/Articles/OffShore.htm">http://www.matrix.co.il/Matrix/he-IL/Contents/Articles/OffShore.htm</a>.<br />2 Galit Yemini, “Indian Labor? Matrix is hiring Orthodox Women,” Haaretz, 17.1.2005.<br />3 Eli Shim‘oni, “Who can Find an Orthodox Java Wife?,” YNet, 23.9.2005.<br />4 Ruth Sinai, “Will Day-Care Centers Solve the Problems of Working Women?”, Haaretz, 25.9.2005.<br /><hr><br />simple fact: Modi‘in Illit is a settlement that lies in the occupied West Bank, on the land of five Palestinian villages: Ni‘lin, Kharbata, Saffa, Bil‘in, and Dir Qadis.5 In fact, Modi‘in Illit is the fastest-growing settlement in the West Bank at the moment, and is soon to be granted the status of a city. Today its population numbers more than 30,000 and the housing ministry projects 150,000 residents by the year 2020. The expansion of Modi‘in Illit has been the ruin of the Palestinian farmers of the village of Bil‘in. The separation fence that is being built between Modi‘in Illit and Bil‘in swallows up about half of the village’s lands, about 2000 dunums (445 acres), in addition to those that had been robbed in the past. The peasants of Bil‘in are dispossessed for the sake of the future expansion of the colony.<br /><br />Since February, 2005, the inhabitants of Bil‘in have been leading a popular, nonviolent struggle against the separation fence robbing them of their lands. Together with Israeli peace activists and international volunteers, they have demonstrated each week, hand in hand, in front of the bulldozers and the soldiers. They have joined a series of Palestinian villages directly affected by the building of the separation fence – Jayyous, Biddu, Dir Ballut, Budrus, to name but a few – who for the past three years have led arduous campaigns of nonviolent resistance against the wall. Almost unknown outside Palestine, these campaigns, often coordinated by the local Popular Committees against the Fence, have had modest, but significant gains – from impeding or slowing down the advancement of the fences eating up their lands and condemning them to a life in small and middle-sized enclaves, through changing its course and regaining some of their lost vineyards and fields, to making popular, nonviolent resistance and joint Israeli-Palestinian struggle a viable political option under deteriorating conditions.<br /><br />More than one hundred and fifty people have been injured in the violent dispersal of the joint Israeli-Palestinian demonstrations in Bil‘in, and many have been arrested under various pretexts. Forces of the Israeli Army, the Border Guard, Israeli police, and private security firms have been used against the protesters. Clubs, teargas, rubber bullets and live fire have taken a heavy toll on them. With late night sweeps and arrests, Israeli forces have tried to deter the members of the popular committee of Bil‘in, who, even in these times of hatred and fear, steadfastly adhered to the principles of nonviolent resistance and open cooperation with Israeli opponents of the occupation.6 The prison service even sent in its special forces (the Masada unit) – infiltrators disguised as Arabs who participated in the demonstrations and tried to whip up the crowd and incite demonstrators to use force against the soldiers.7 Only<br />the determination of the members of the popular committee of Bil‘in prevented these<br />provocations from causing an uncontrolled escalation, which may have ended with the loss of life. The fence needs indeed heavy protection – from the nonviolent protest of Palestinian villagers and their allies. And the fence is there to protect the colonial project – Modi‘in Illit.<br /><br />In fact, the fence is being built on the lands of Bil‘in in order to safeguard the future expansion of the settlement, for the construction of new neighborhoods, most of which do not<br /><hr><br />5 Nir Shalev, “The Wall in Bil‘in and the Eastward Expansion of Modi‘in Illit,” Indymedia/HaGada HaSmalit, 11.9.2005; http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=8767.<br />6 Meron Rapaport, “Symbol of Struggle,” Haaretz, 10.9.2005.<br />7 Meron Rapaport, “Bil‘in residents: Undercover troops provoked stone-throwing,” Haaretz, 14.10.2005; David Ratner, “Bil‘in Protesters say bean bags are latest riot-control weapon,” Haaretz, 7.11.2005.<br /><hr><br />even have an approved plan. Here, on Israel’s wild frontier, it is possible to build thousands of housing units without building permits or approved master plan. But no less important is the fact that the settlement of Modi‘in Illit is not a project of the nationalist-messianic settlers and their political representatives: It is the product of a heterogeneous social-political alliance that links real estate developers interested in land, capitalists seizing the opportunity to profit from<br />land confiscation and government subsidies, politicians driving forward the colonization project under the umbrella of Sharon’s ‘Disengagement Plan’ – and captive labor.<br /><br /><span style="font-style:italic;">Settlements and Real Estate</span><br /><br />The partners in the expansion of Modi‘in Illit merit closer scrutiny. The main entrepreneurs are Danya Cebus firm (a subsidiary of Africa-Israel Corporation owned by one of Israel’s most powerful businessmen, Lev Leviev, also involved in building many other settlements);8 the businessman and former head of the Contractors Association, Mordechai Yona, the orthodox businessman Pinchas Salzman, and Tzifcha International. Serious financial interests are hence involved in the struggle over the lands of Bil‘in. There is profit in the fence; the investors insisted on this particular route of the fence, which separates the villagers of Bil‘in from their land, in order to ensure their investments.<br /><br />Modi‘in Illit was founded in 1996 at the initiative of private entrepreneurs, originally as Kiryat Sefer; the various neighborhoods were later consolidated as Modi‘in Illit (in Hebrew: Upper Modi‘in). As with other settlements, the name is misleading, suggesting that it is located not in the West Bank, but like the city Modi‘in, within Israel’s pre-1967 borders. Many Israelis have discovered only recently – as a result of the sustained protest of the inhabitants of Bil‘in and the scandal over the investors’ methods of seizing their land – that Modi‘in Illit was in fact a settlement.9 Its founders were two entrepreneurs, adherents of the rabbi Shach, who were looking for cheap housing for ultra-orthodox families. The close<br />cooperation between the Modi‘in Illit Council and powerful private entrepreneurs, who were granted special benefits and no-bid contracts, is well-documented in the state comptroller’s report: again and again the council sought to justify its close cooperation with the investors, arguing that the private contractor “has already built housing units and other projects in the area,” and that there is “an urgent need to complete the project.” In Israel’s Wild East, the need to establish facts on the ground gives developers a free hand; the political urgency of the colonization process works in tandem with investors’ attempts to secure quick profits.<br /><br />The state comptroller determined that the Modi‘in Illit Council collected 10% of the<br />taxes that the developers owed on the lands and that the Council “offset the debts it was owed” from the two main developers of the settlement “by means of shady bookkeeping involving future building projects, even before receiving the required permits for their construction.” Thousands of housing units were in effect built in Modi‘in Illit in violation of<br /><hr><br />8 In their websites, Africa-Israel Corporation and Danya Cebus ignore their involvement in building settlements in the occupied territories and only mention building “throughout the State of Israel”:<br /><a href="http://www.standardpoor.co.il/standardpoor/doa_iis.dll/Serve/item/English/1.1.1.1.html">ttp://www.standardpoor.co.il/standardpoor/doa_iis.dll/Serve/item/English/1.1.1.1.html</a>; <a href="http://www.danya-cebus.co.il/Eng/B_E.asp">http://www.danyacebus.co.il/Eng/B_E.asp</a>.<br />9 Akiva Eldar, “Official: Mofaz approves construction in West Bank Settlements,” Haaretz,14.12.2005.<br /><hr><br />the law – and with the ex post facto approval of the local council.10 In one area, the council whitewashed the illegal construction by making retroactive adjustments to the zoning plan. According to a 1998 investigation, the entire “Brachfeld Estate”– built on the lands of Bil‘in – was built without construction permits. Is there any need to mention that not one of these houses was demolished?11 During the appeal by Bil‘in’s residents to Israel’s High Court of Justice Much of the sewage from the neighborhoods of Modi‘in Illit flows into the Modi‘in stream and pollutes the area’s water resources. All this is not a matter of mere corruption or mismanagement, but a structural feature of the colonial frontier: unregulated settlement activity creates possibilities for making vast profits at the expense of the human and natural environment. The settlement itself, however, is kept clean. As a well-tended city, Modi‘in Illit won the “Beauty Star” award from The Council for a Beautiful Israel. Officials in one of its main neighborhoods claimed that “on principle and for the sake of security,” they did not hire Arabs.12<br /><br />The residents of Bil‘in evidently face a powerful alliance of political and economic<br />interests. The two neighborhoods to be built on their robbed lands comprise together some 5,500 housing units. The “Green Park” project is being constructed by the Dania Cebus company, controlled by Lev Leviev and his business partner, the American real-estate investor and Lubavitch-adherent Shaya Boymelgreen. It is a massive project, with 5,800 apartments planned, a 230 million dollar enterprise.13 The revenues of Africa-Israel, the real estate investment firm owned by Leviev, recorded a sharp increase in 2005; its operating profits grew by 129% and stand at 1.1 billion Israeli shekels [2391 million dollar] for the first three quarters of the year.14<br />But it is also worth paying attention to the identity of the strange developers, who claim to be the legal owners of the lands on which one of the new neighborhoods is being built.<br /><br />These developers are none other than Israel’s Custodian of Absentee Property15 and the hardly <br /><hr><br />10 See Israel’s State Comptroller’s Report, No. 51a (2000), pp. 201-218.<br />11 In December 2005, Bil‘in activists also built a small house on a Palestinian plot of land lying behind the separation fence, arguing that as long as not a single of the illegal building projects in the settlement is demolished, they have a right to build on their land. The little house was named a Center for Joint Struggle for Peace, and has enabled farmers to reach the lands that they are about to lose with<br />the completion of the fence. Meron Rapaport, “IDF completes evacuation of Bil‘in ‘outpost’,” Haaretz, 23.12.2005.<br />12 Tamar Rotem, “The Price is right,” Haaretz, 23.9.2003.<br />13 Sharon Kedmi, “Dania Cebus is to build in Modi‘in Illit,” Globes, 15.8.2004.<br />14 Recent data:<br /><a href="http://maariv.bizportal.co.il/bizportalnew/bizcomparticle.shtml?c_id=611&mid=108302&IdDB=1&srvr=">http://maariv.bizportal.co.il/bizportalnew/bizcomparticle.shtml?c_id=611&mid=108302&IdDB=1&srvr=</a><br /><a href="http:\\www.honline.co.il\">http:\\www.honline.co.il\</a>.<br /><hr> <br />known Land Redemption Fund. The settlers’ Land Redemption Fund (LRF), established some twenty years ago, coordinates the takeover of Palestinian land in several key areas earmarked<br />for the expansion of the settlements. The fund was established by some of the ideological leaders of the radical settlers: Zvi Slonim, former secretary general of Gush Emunim, the settler’s movement; Avraham Mintz, former aide to Ariel Sharon when he was housing minister, and Era Rapaport. Rapaport, a settler from Brooklyn, was one of the founders of the Jewish terror network that operated in the occupied territories in the early 1980s; Rapaport served several years in prison for his personal involvement in the assassination attempt on Bassam a-Shak‘a, mayor of Nablus, who lost both legs in the attack.16 The Fund’s acquisition methods are described in a detailed investigation carried out by two Israeli journalists: “The<br />Fund’s intelligence network is made up of former [Palestinian] collaborators who were<br />burned [=i.e., unveiled] and returned to their villages, retired Israeli General Security Services operatives who are information contractors for pay (they can find out, for example, who owns the land in practice and who works it), and former military governors, such as the late Yehoshua Bar-Tikva, who had been the military governor of Tulkarm, and after he retired the LRF used him and his connections in the villages.” Arab straw-men act as mediators in the land deals; they usually pose as buyers, while the lands are purchased “funded by money from right wing Jewish millionaires such as Lev Leviev, the Swiss tycoon Nissan Khakshouri.”17<br /><br />Similar methods were also used in order to take possession of the lands of Bil‘in.18<br />The project is thus inextricably economic and political: Promoting annexation and<br />colonization brings fat profits. Among the Fund’s donors can be found the same capitalists who appear in other settings as settlement builders and real estate investors. They donate considerable sums to the radical settlers’ Fund not out of political conviction alone, for there is a profit to be made. The same alliance can be encountered elsewhere in the West Bank. The Land Redemption Fund, for instance, is also the investor behind the expansion of Tzufin settlement on lands robbed from Jayyous – another Palestinian village to lose most of its resources with the construction of the separation fence. Here, the eleven fold expansion of the settlement is under way. The developer in this case as well is a real-estate company controlled by the same Lev Leviev.19<br /><br />The areas on which the Fund has chosen to focus – Nirit, Alfei Menashe, Tzufin, and<br />Modi‘in Illit – are also significant: “Its main project is to blur the Green Line [Israel’s pre-1967 border] by linking the settlements to communities inside the Green Line and expanding <br /><hr><br />15 A governmental body officially entrusted with the management of ‘absentee land’, this agency has played a key-role in taking possession of Palestinian land, especially belonging to refugees within Israel and recently, in the Occupied Territories as well. During the discussion of Bil‘in residents appeal to Israel’s High Court of Justice to change the route of the separation fence, it was revealed that this governmental body served as a straw-man for the settlers’ fund, disguising their identity. In a special report, two Israeli human rights organizations uncovered these ‘revolving transactions’: the settlers “transfer the land they purchased to the Custodian, who declares it state land. This enables theplanning process to start. The Custodian allocates the land to the purchaser in the framework of the planning-authorization agreement, and then for development, for no consideration.” See Bimkom/B’Tselem, Under the Guise of Security: Routing the Separation Barrier to enable the Expansion of Israeli Settlements in the West Bank, December 2005:<br /><a href="http://www.btselem.org/Download/200512_Under_the_Guise_of_Security_Eng.doc">http://www.btselem.org/Download/200512_Under_the_Guise_of_Security_Eng.doc</a>.<br />16 Shalom Yerushalmi, “Every Prime-Minister who gave away Eretz Yisrael – was hurt (an Interview with Era Rapaport,” Ma‘ariv, 5.4.2002.<br />17 Shosh Mula and Ofer Petersburg, “The Settler National Fund”, Yedioth Achronoth, 27.1.2005; English translation: <a href="http://www.peacenow.org/hot.asp?cid=247">http://www.peacenow.org/hot.asp?cid=247</a>.<br />18 Akiva Eldar, “Documents reveal West Bank settlement Modi'in Illit built illegally,” Haaretz, 3.1.2006; Eldar, “State mulls criminal probe into illegal settlement construction,” Haaretz, 8.1.2006.<br />19 Ada Ushpiz, “Fenced out,” Haaretz, 16.9.2005.<br /><hr><br />communities inside the Green Line in the direction of the territories” in order “to create facts on the ground.”20 These settlements are part of a larger project begun in the 1980’s, to dissolve the Green Line by creating upper-class settlements for non-ideological settlers. The project was resumed around 2003 after the completion of parts of the separation fence, leading to the de facto annexation of parts of the West Bank lying between the fence and Israel. In these areas, one could now promise higher living standards, in an area made safe for investors and settlers as Palestinian communities were made to disappear behind the wall.21 Israel’s settlements near the Green Line and adjacent to the separation fence hence have<br />a strategic significance. They complement the project of establishing a system of fences by effectively annexing parts of the West Bank to Israel. But they are also the strategic location where a powerful political and economic alliance between capital, settlers and government politicians takes shape.<br /><br /><span style="font-style:italic;">The Fence Coalition Moves Forward</span><br /><br />The pro-fence coalition is currently crystallizing around Sharon and his heirs – a political alliance of devotees of gradual annexation (“Israel should keep the settlement blocs”) and “reasonable” colonial expansion (who can only look reasonable and nice when compared to their friends-and-rivals, the “bad”, uninhibited ideological settlers), all united under the banner of ethnic separation and economic privatization. It promises Israelis peace through unilateral pacification and partial annexation by dismembering the West Bank and breaking it up into fenced-in enclaves. It took some time for the Fence Coalition to take shape in the political arena – and its adherents can be found well beyond the party formed around Sharon’s legacy, Kadima (“Forward”, or in ancient Hebrew: “Eastward”), but in Modi‘in Illit and<br />elsewhere in the West Bank, one could see its social and economic counterpart at work for some time: Its core is formed by an unholy alliance between settlers and state agencies subsidizing and advancing the fences, real-estate companies and high-tech entrepreneurs, the old economy and the new. The settlements which are currently being built and expanded in the vicinity of the separation fence are the place where these important alliances are forged.<br /><br />Precisely because they are not based solely on the messianic fervor of hardliner settlers, but also offer answers to real social needs – quality of life for the upper middle class, or jobs and subsidized housing for those underprivileged who badly need them, these settlements are able broaden the power base of the settlement movement and link additional constituencies to it: first and foremost, the real fence profiteers, contractors, capitalists and upper-class non-ideological settlers seeking quality of life in new gated communities, far from the poor and shielded from the Palestinians. Yet in addition, they also tie to the colonization project those who seek a way out of hardship, large families looking for cheap housing or new<br />immigrants depending on government subsidies and seeking social acceptance. It is they who are pay the price – the hostility and hatred that the fence generates, and the complete dependence on capitalists and politicians.<br /><br />In Modi‘in Illit, the old economy of contractors and developers meets the new economy<br />of high-tech. Both are closely tied to the state: last June, Mordechai Gutman, CEO of Matrix,<br /><hr><br />20 Mula and Petersburg, Yedioth Achronoth, 27.1.2005.<br />21 Gadi Algazi, “The Upper-Class Fence,” HaOkets Website, 15.6.2005; English translation:<br /><a href="http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=5086">http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=5086</a>.<br /><hr><br />in a discussion in the science and technology committee of the Knesset with finance minister Binyamin Netanyahu, requested state assistance in order to deal with competition from cheap programmers in India.22 State subsidies indeed sustain Matrix’s project in Modi‘in Illit.23 “Like the finance minister,” said the chair of the Knesset committee, to representatives of high-tech firms, “I also think that the range of interests you represent here, around the table, is also the interest of the state.” The contractors and the high-tech firms are sustained by the colonial project, which puts at their disposal cheap, stolen land, as well as state subsidies and public resources, policemen and soldiers securing their investments – and captive and disciplined labor force. For it is in these nearby colonies such as Modi‘in Illit, 25 minutes from Tel Aviv, that Matrix has found an alternative to cheap Indian labor. The solution is called “off-shoring at home”; it takes place nearby, in Israel’s backyard, on its colonial frontier. Israeli capitalism does not float in a digital world. As it is increasingly integrated into the global market, it renews itself through its involvement in the colonial project, from which it draws resources and support.<br /><br />It is sometimes suggested that with the modernization of Israeli capitalism, it would be able – and perhaps even required – to abandon its attachment to old-style colonialism. The case of Matrix in Bil‘in demonstrates that Israeli capitalism can be both colonial and digital, to move back and forth between global markets and colonial settlements, campaigns for unbridled privatization and heavy government subsidies. <br /><br />Left to itself, it is not capable, nor predisposed to extricate itself of the colonial swamp – or to exert enough pressure on the state that sustains it to do so – that is, as long Israel’s colonial project does not become irrevocably a net liability and resistance by the colonized and their allies forces a change of course.<br /><br /><span style="font-style:italic;">Global, Digital and Colonial</span><br /><br />How much do they pay the women that work for Matrix’s development center in Modi‘in<br />Illit? They are described as diligent and efficient, exceptionally productive workers: “What an assembler elsewhere can do in a crazy week of pressure and sleeping at work, the girls here can easily accomplish in three days,” said the head of the Matrix center in Modi‘in Illit to a journalist.24 But their wages are less than half the wage of a programmer in Israel’s center.<br /><br />Matrix offers its customers the labor of its employees for 18-20 dollars an hour. A starting worker in Matrix’s development center receives minimum wage – about four dollars – for an hour’s work. An Israeli journalist, Yoni Shadmi, did the math:<blockquote>The girls in Matrix’s development center specialize in the programming languages<br />Java and dot.net. For the sake of comparison, a starting programmer with the same<br />specialties can earn 10,000 Israeli shekels [2,175$] a month in Israel. A slightly<br />more experienced programmer, who is not ashamed to negotiate his salary, can get 15,000 shekels [3,260$]. And an excellent and experienced programmer, of which there is surely more than one in the modest offices in Modi‘in Illit, should receive, without too much effort, more than 20,000 shekel [4,350$] a month. An </blockquote><br /><hr><br />22 Protocols of the Knesset’s Parliamentary Commission on Science and Technology, 29.6.2004.<br />23 Israel’s government subsidizes the salaries for five years:<br /><a href="http://www.tamas.gov.il/NR/exeres/1BEE7B98-AC24-46E7-83C6-DF7FDEC4CD25.htm">http://www.tamas.gov.il/NR/exeres/1BEE7B98-AC24-46E7-83C6-DF7FDEC4CD25.htm</a>.<br />24 Yoni Shadmi, “Globalization Killed the High-Tech Star”, Ma‘ariv, 11.11.2005.<br /><hr><br /><blockquote>American high-tech worker earns an average of 26,000 shekels [5,650$] per month. In Matrix’s development center in Modi‘in Illit, by comparison, which enjoys workers that adhere to almost Japanese standards of punctuality, industriousness, and effort, pays its women less than 5,000 shekels [1,085$].<br /><br />Over the first half-year of their work, which includes a comprehensive course that<br />prepares them for the job of programmer, the girls earn 2,000 shekels [435$] per<br />month. Afterwards they receive the minimum wage, which for October 2005 stood at 3,335 shekels [725$] plus expenses. Beginning in their second year the girls receive 4,800 shekels [1,045$] per month. The state pays the company 1,000 shekels [215$] per month for each worker […] and thus finances part of the girls’ wages. Beyond that, they are tied to the company for at least two years. You want to quit? You have to pay a fine equal to two months’ salary. There are no bonuses.25</blockquote>One of the heads of the ultra-orthodox sector explained to another Israeli reporter: “The ultraorthodox community is used to living on nothing, so making a little is a lot for them.”26<br /><br />The company’s spokespersons are careful to explain to journalists that this has nothing to do with the exploitation of cheap labor. The wages paid to the ultra-orthodox women of Modi‘in Illit, they argue, do not reflect their relative productivity or the worth of the product that they produce in the international market, but rather, “their low cost of living” (a remarkable, though not wholly unfamiliar, theory of value!).27 Life is cheap in the colonies; this is the Israeli answer to globalization. But when addressing customers or boasting of their achievements to foreign businessmen, Matrix managers speak clearly and describe the ultraorthodox women as “a cheap, local labor force”.28 They represent the entire project as their answer to the rapid globalization of high-tech industry, an ingenious answer to competition from cheap labor in India or Romania, for example: ‘offshore outsourcing at home’, is their formula. Hiring distant programmers to carry out assignments for customers across the sea in order to reduce production costs is becoming a prevalent solution in the new global economy. But it also brings special difficulties, they argue, “due to both geographical and cultural<br />distance” between the customers, the employers, and the employees: different work days, different language, and a different “work culture.” Here, Matrix managers claim, we are not only saving travel costs. The company offers services at a “similar cost to those available from Asian countries, but with the advantages of working with a local development center, enjoying geographical and cultural proximity.” This is not completely accurate. “Geographical proximity” disguises the specific advantages of locating the project in a colonial setting, and it is precisely the “cultural differences” that are exploited here in order to get the most out of labor.<br /><hr><br />25 Shadmi, Ma‘ariv, 11.11.2005.<br />26 Yemini, Haaretz, 17.1.2005.<br />27 Gutman, “Off Shore in Israel”.<br />28 Efrat Neuman, “Begorra, it’s the hora,” Haaretz Online, 6.9.2005.<br /><hr><span style="font-style:italic;"><br />Plunder and Discipline</span><br /><hr><br /><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>“The Lord will bring this charge against the elders and officers of His people: ‘It is you who have ravaged the vineyard; That which was robbed from the poor (gzelat<br />he-Ani) is in your houses’.” (Isaiah 3:14).</blockquote></blockquote><br /></blockquote><br />The Matrix development center is strictly kosher. Two local rabbis – one of married the Matrix employee who initiated the project – supervise the site. The rabbi’s seal is important: “We painstakingly uphold every kosher rule,” say the company’s directors, “so as not to lose rabbinical approval.” Beside the legitimate and vital consideration of the workers’ way of life and their values, rabbinical support plays a crucial role in this capitalist enterprise: the working women “live according to a complex religious and professional code;” this rigorous code, workers report, is ‘in the air’.29 “Although many are mothers of six, they miss fewer days of work than a mother of two in Tel Aviv,” said an Imagestore project director in Modi‘in Illit to a journalist: “These women have no issues. They just work. No smoking or coffee breaks, chatting on the phone, or looking for vacation deals in Turkey. Breaks are only for eating, or pumping breast milk in special room. Some women can pop home, breast-feed and come back.”30 Visiting journalists were struck by the silence at the workplace:<br /><blockquote>“Personal conversations in the work room of Matrix’s development center are forbidden, not only between men and women, but among the women. They pay you for eight hours of work,” says Esti [one of the workers], “so they expect you to work. If someone is talking too much or surfing the web, someone else will tell her ‘hey, that’s theft [gezel],’ as though we are taking from the company. Once we asked if we could take a break of five minutes for prayer, but the rabbi said that the ancient Sages didn’t take a break but would call out the Shma‘ [the essential daily prayer] while working, and thus we can put off the prayer until after the working day.”<br />All in all, the girls are every human resource manager’s dream. As Hila Tal<br />relates: “They came to me and asked ‘are we allowed to speak to each other? Are<br />we allowed to talk on the telephone?” The management replied that they were<br />allowed, but within limits. The punctilious adherence to the rules is maintained<br />even when the bosses are not present. Esti’s group supervisor is usually in Petach<br />Tikva. But even so, with the ecology of mutual pressure among the girls, the rules<br />are upheld. “We are accustomed to rigor and obedience,” she says with half a<br />smile, “we have gotten used to not doing forbidden things even when no one is<br />looking, because there is someone watching from above.”31</blockquote>In exchange for the rabbinical seal, the investors get disciplined, kosher girls. The rabbi is there to instill obedience to capitalist time discipline. The ominous term gezel – a loaded<br />moral term in Jewish religious tradition, meaning taking by force and robbery, is not applied <br /><hr><br />29 Shadmi, Ma‘ariv, 11.11.2005.<br />30 Ruth Sinai, “Modi‘in Illit: The Zionist Response to Off-shoring,” Haaretz, 19.9.2005.<br />31 Shadmi, Ma‘ariv, 11.11.2005.<br /><hr><br />to the lands of Bil‘in, but to ‘stealing’ employer’s time through idle talk. The conquest of Palestinian lands for the establishment of Modi‘in Illit was accomplished by a partnership of private capital and Hassidic land-redeeming entrepreneurs; similarly, one encounters here a no less fascinating alliance between the new economy and traditional authority. Like the rabbis that gave their seal of approval to the theft of land, there is no doubt that the Matrix rabbis are establishing important religious rulings: to converse with one another during work hours is theft, since time is money, and time belongs to the company. At Matrix, one is experimenting with new combinations – a mix of reciprocal social control among workers (mutual censorship is an efficiency-minded manager’s wet dream), of surveillance and discipline, with rabbinical authority.<br /><br />Reading the words of the reporters who have covered Matrix’s development center<br />gives one the impression of an encounter with a remote and exotic tribe. The women of the tribe are pleasant, but their customs are strange; they keep a strict code of rituals and have many children. Despite their strange ways, the writers emphasize, they can be trained for productive labor. They are content with just a little. They are disciplined and obedient, thanks to the priests of the tribe, among other things, who have added their authority to the employers’ command. There is no doubt: great is the fortune of Israeli capitalists. Facing the challenges of globalization, they have no need to search for such tribes in distant colonies. Their scouts have found them in the nearby, colonial backyard. <br /><br />These descriptions are clearly reminiscent of debates about workers’ religious ethos and labor discipline at the beginning of the twentieth century. Should one cite Max Weber’s short invocation of pious female workers in his Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism? Yet one should not take these idealized representations – manufactured at the junction of public relations experts, interested self-descriptions by workers, and journalists’ exoticised depictions – for everyday reality. The ultra-orthodox women working for Matrix and its equivalent would surely find ways to circumvent both interested rabbis’ injunctions and shopfloor control. Moreover, one must not forget that there are also material reasons for the worker’s great motivation and the labor discipline that seems to prevail. Where else can they work? One of the female managers of the project openly states: “There is no work in Modi‘in Illit, and women do not have cars to travel anywhere else. Most of them have no driver’s license, making it crucial that there is a place of employment close to home.” The rate of car ownership in Modi‘in Illit is indeed among the lowest in the country – 60 vehicles per thousand population, and there are no industrial areas.32 <br /><br />Let us ignore the aura of high-tech that has already faded with the transformation of the high-tech industry, and focus on the oppressive work conditions, the subordination to a close alliance between contractors and employers (one of the contracting firms boasts of having initiated the link between real-estate developers and high-tech companies),33 the lack of alternate sources of employment and the use of “traditional” social control – is all of this not reminiscent of the work conditions in the development towns of the fifties, the factories that claimed to bring salvation to new immigrants? In both cases, integration in Israel’s colonial<br />project, populating its frontier, was precondition to access to fundamental social rights; then, new immigrants from the Arab world were portrayed as unskilled workers lacking any <br /><hr><br />32 Shim‘oni, Ynet, 23.9.2005.<br />33 See their website: http://www.ahuzatbrachfeld.com/he/ahuzat-brachfeld.php.<br /><hr><br />competence, just as ultra-orthodox women are now depicted as emerging from darkness to light, from consignment to family household to the benefits of the modern capitalist enterprise (ignoring both their actual level of education and the fact that ultra-orthodox women have traditionally been working and earning a living in addition to caring for their families).34 In present day Israel, a high price has been exacted from the new settlers malgré eux. Frontier colonialism reinforces the relations of dependence and subordination to the contractors, the state, and the capitalists.<br /><br /><span style="font-style:italic;">Cannon fodder for the Colonial Project</span><br /><br />Most of the residents of Modi‘in Illit are ultra-orthodox and have many children; two years ago, speaking to a reporter from Haaretz, some emphasized that they did not consider think of themselves as settlers. It is the housing shortage that pushed large ultra-orthodox families to the settlement project. There they find the government assistance and public housing that do not exist within Israel. In the settlement of Betar Illit (which is likely to be the site of the next struggle around construction of the separation fence) and in Modi‘in Illit a two-bedroom apartment costs less than $100,000. “And what would they do anyway? Go to Tel Aviv, move to [upper-class] Afeka?” said Professor Menachem Friedman, an expert on the ultra-orthodox population, to Haaretz reporter: “Their situation was so desperate, that they were prepared to move anywhere.” This is precisely what the settler leaders are counting on. “But even if they didn't come here for ideological reasons,” said the spokesman for the Settlers’ Council with confidence – “they won't give up their homes so easily.”35 Thus, at certain stages of the process, the mechanism which incorporates people in the colonial process and makes them settlers despite themselves is openly talked about. In 2003, the mayor of Betar Illit, Yitzhak<br />Pindrus, went so far as to tell the reporter that the ultra-orthodox were sent to the occupied territories against their will to serve as “cannon fodder.” Their importance should not be underestimated: By now, these two ultra-orthodox settlements – Betar Illit and Modi‘in Illit comprise together more than a quarter of the Jewish settlers’ population in the West Bank – and remain the fastest growing colonies – and at the same time, in comparison to Jewish communities within Israel and its settlements in the West Bank – they are the poorest of all.<br /><br /><span style="font-style:italic;">Matrix in Modi‘in Illit</span><br /><br />Matrix is one of the largest software firms in Israel; it is traded on the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange with a value of half a billion shekels and employs about 2,300 workers. According to reports, its profits in the first quarter of 2005 rose by 61%, and in the third quarter by 76% compared to the same quarter of the previous year.36 Among its clients in Israel are banks,<br /><hr><br />34 They have recently been described as ‘agents of social change’, entering new professions and undermining traditional hierarchies. See Menahem Friedman, “The Ultra-Orthodox Woman,”, in: A View into the Lives of Women in Jewish Societies, Yael Atzmon ed. (Jerusalem: Zalman Shazar Center for Jewish History, 1995), pp. 273-290; Yossef Shalhav, “Ultra-Orthodox Women between Two Worlds,” Mifne no. 46-47 (May 2005), pp. 53-55.<br />35 Tamar Rotem, Haaretz, 23.9.2003.<br />36 Data according to http://web.bizportal.co.il/web/biznews02.shtml?mid=103203.<br /><hr><br />public institutions, the security services, and private clients. Matrix IT is controlled by Formula Systems, of the Formula Group, with worldwide sales of 500 million dollars.37 <br /><br />Matrix is hence quite vulnerable to public criticism and boycott. Global entrepreneurs have a soft spot. Matrix is, for instance, the primary distributor of one of the most popular commercial version of the Linux operating system – Red Hat. What will it do if Linux users boycott Matrix, demanding that it withdraws its investments from the occupied territories, or put pressure on the public institutions that are among its clients (among others, the Hebrew University, the Weitzman Institute of Science, Ben Gurion University, and Tel Aviv University, where I work, have all purchased Red Hat licenses from Matrix)?38 What will happen if users threaten to boycott the companies – like Oracle39 – who use the services of the<br />development center at the settlement of Modi‘in Illit? This does no apply to Israel alone: Matrix represents some of the most important international companies;40 all are vulnerable to public pressure from opponents of the settlements. And what about Formula Systems, which owns Matrix? Formula Systems is very sensitive to its public image. It takes pains to present itself as a company that contributes to society and technological education, and also supports the center for the advancement of social and environmental responsibility of businesses in Israel. Its customers too can demand that Formula stop supporting the building and expanding of settlements in the occupied West Bank.<br /><br /><span style="font-style:italic;">The Stick and the Carrot</span><br /><br />And what about the women of Modi‘in Illit? Only a few years ago, the ultra-orthodox settlers malgré eux in Betar Illit still saw themselves as “cannon fodder,” but now, with the approaching fence, they are more likely to set their hopes on the wall – to seek security in its shadow and identify with the dispossession project.41 Similarly, some of the women of Modi‘in Illit are likely to see Matrix as their savior which provides their livelihood. This is the law of the stick and the carrot (and the stick is the same stick – unemployment and poverty – that also drives Arab workers, in Israel and the occupied territories, to participate as day laborers in building the settlements and the separation fences). But, nonetheless, they are victims of colonial capitalism, like many others who are being incorporated into the colonial<br />process through the exploitation of their social distress. But what future awaits them and their children, as long as their existence is based on theft of land and serving as a human wall, a target for the hatred of the dispossessed Palestinians? What kind of dignity is there in their subordination to the software giants who exploit their situation, given that these corporations would not hesitate to relocate their investments the moment they find cheaper alternatives?<br /><hr><br />37 <a href="http://www.formulasystems.com/">http://www.formulasystems.com/</a>.<br />38 Source: <a href="http://www.johnbryce.co.il/newsletters/mabatJan05.htm">http://www.johnbryce.co.il/newsletters/mabatJan05.htm</a>.<br />39 “Oracle Invests in Talpiot Development Center,”14.11.2005:<br /><a href="http://www.johnbryce.co.il/shuld_know.asp?query=press&id=196">http://www.johnbryce.co.il/shuld_know.asp?query=press&id=196</a>.<br />40 A partial list on Matrix’s website includes PeopleSoft, BMC Software, Red Hat, Compuware, Business Objects, Verity, Vignette, IONA, WebMethods, BindView, among others: <a href="http://www.matrix.co.il/Matrix/he-IL/CompanyProfile.htms">http://www.matrix.co.il/Matrix/he-IL/CompanyProfile.htms</a>.<br />41 Tamar Avraham and Efrat Ben-Ze’ev, “Batir, Hussan, Wadi Fukin and Nahalin: Four Palestinian<br />villages soon to be encircled by fences,” Ta‘ayush website: <a href="http://taayush.tripod.com/new/batir-texts/duajbatir">http://taayush.tripod.com/new/batir-texts/duajbatir.htm</a>.<br /><hr><br />The case of Matrix in Bil‘in hence not only reveals the social alliance profiteering from the separation fence and the expansion of the colonies, but also should give opponents of the Israeli occupation pause for thought. Should they fight for the work conditions of the women of Modi‘in Illit? They are, after all, settlers who are living on the lands of Bil‘in and the adjacent villages. They are usurpers – but also victims. It would seem that there are no simple solutions to this quandary. But it is one of the most glaring cases of the link between capital and settlements or between the two of them and the political establishment, and also the link between the anti-colonial struggle – against the dispossession of the Palestinians and expansion of settlements – and the struggle for social justice within Israel’s borders. The<br />renewal of subsidized construction of public housing for low-income families within Israel – religious and secular, without distinction – will bring a drastic decline in the willingness to move to settlements such as Modi‘in Illit.<br /><br />There are also alternatives to the compulsory professional courses that the company<br />offers – in public education. If the state provides professional courses and a general education for all who need it, unconditionally – without having to join the settlement project, and without going through Wisconsin-plan humiliation, without being necessarily from the right ethnic background and the right gender and born to the right parents – the social mechanism that ties workers to their employers and places them at the mercy of the company’s management would be seriously undermined. Then those who have already sought housing solutions in the settlements will also be able to find work within Israel. Raising the minimum wage, enforcing labor laws, restoring the national insurance benefits, ending the organized importation of cheap labor from abroad that is indentured to manpower companies, ending the employment of workers through those exploitative companies, in other words setting up a real welfare state – that grants social rights unconditioned by ethnic identity or participation in the colonial project – will empty major settlements, such as Modi‘in Illit and Betar Illit and parts of Ma‘ale Adumim and Ariel. No one will want to build one’s house on stolen lands and become part of a living human wall. Then, Palestinian citizens of Israel will also no longer have to work on the bulldozers building the fence or serve as subcontractors in settlement expansion.<br /><br />At the moment the ultra-orthodox workers begin to demand even part of what they<br />deserve, you will see the lords of Matrix turn pale. With in all their social concern and national responsibility they will move their projects in the blink of an eye to India or wherever they will find cheap labor force. Only a consistent demand for social justice can break the political-social alliance between capital and settlements, between the new oligarchs and the old territory-craving nationalists, and create an opening for all the dispossessed of Israeli society to extricate themselves from the grip of Matrix, real estate tycoons and the nationalist<br />knights of “land redemption.”<br /><br />Globalized capital transforms not only the landscape of the occupied West Bank but<br />also Israel’s social landscape, and the two processes are intimately linked. Take Lev Leviev – one of the main investors in Modi‘in Illit – as a concrete example: a powerful capitalist, presenting himself as an ultra-orthodox adherent of a modern, globalized Jewish religious sect (Chabad), he built his fortune on the exploitation of the diamond treasures of Africa and the14 suffering of its residents.42 Think of the million persons who live in the Lundas province of Angola, digging diamonds by hand, in areas ruled by the private armies of the diamond companies, as is described in the detailed report of human rights worker Rafael Marques.43 Leviev has now also gained complete control of the political representation of Jewish communities in Russia.44 His company, Africa-Israel prizes itself as “pioneered the establishment of gated communities” in Israel, upper-class enclaves fragmenting public space and intended to meet “the needs for high quality living with security and peace of mind.”45 Leviev is directly involved in the establishment of settlements, in financing radical settler’s associations in the occupied territories, but also operates shopping malls, has recently won the contract for operating the first private prison in Israel.46 In Israel, separation fences and privatization campaigns go hand in hand. Social resistance to both is weakened by both the deep imprint of the colonial past on Israeli society – and the colonial process under way in the<br />West Bank. Hence the importance of the current moment, as the pro-fence coalition and the privatization lobby are converging. Here’s a challenge for Israel’s social activists – not only to expose those whose fortunes are built on the production of suffering and its exploitation, but to target the alliance between the managers of the state and capital in order to de-legitimate the lords of unemployment and privatization.<br /><br />It is all too easy for opponents of the occupation and peace activists in Israel to imagine that they are facing fanatic, nationalist settlers, while they themselves are exemplars of enlightenment and progress. But in fact they are up against an elaborate coalition, of hard and soft, wild and civil colonialists. It extends from the messianic nationalist right to the defense industries and reasonable capitalists, from the radical ideological settlers the “quality of life settlers”, living in their isolated and clean towns on both sides of the Green Line. Here the struggle is harder precisely because the social origins and class position of those on both sides<br />are not very different.<br /><br />But the challenge is yet more complex. The colonization process is built on social<br />misery and poor people’s pressing needs, just as the separation fence is built on fears, real and imagined, amplified by daily propaganda. It draws in young couples from the slums of Jerusalem and it enrolls new immigrants from the Russian Federation, who found themselves in the heart of the West Bank, in Ariel, for example, sent to settle the frontier like the new immigrants to Israel during the fifties; and the large ultra-orthodox families too, gaining access to appropriate subsidized housing only by joining the project of settlement and conquest of the West Bank. All of these can find themselves defending the occupation in order to defend themselves, in the short term – the fragile social existence that they have built<br /><hr><br />42 Boaz Gaon, “Black Diamonds,” Maariv 24.10.2005; Yossi Melman and Assaf Carmel, “Diamonds in the Rough,” Haaretz 24.3.2005.<br />43 Rafael Marques, “Lundas – The Stones of Death: Angola’s Deadly Diamonds,”9.3.2005:<br /><a href="http://www.niza.nl/docs/200503141357095990.pdf">http://www.niza.nl/docs/200503141357095990.pdf</a>.<br />44 On Leviev’s patronage of the Federation of Jewish Communities in Russia, see Yossi Melman, “No Love Lost,” Haaretz 12.8.2005.<br />45 “Real Estate in Israel – Residential Properties,” Africa-Israel Website, accessed 23.1.2006: <a href="http://www.africa-israel.com/megurim/eng/index.asp">http://www.africa-israel.com/megurim/eng/index.asp</a>.<br />46 Aryeh Dayan, “Leviev Promises to treat his Prisoners nicely,” Haaretz, 28.11.2005.<br /><hr><br />for themselves under the guidance of government authorities, the settler movement, and private capital. But they are not the enemy of the opponents of Israeli occupation, but themselves victims of the colonial process who have been dragged into the project and caught in it, instruments in the process of organized dispossession, endangering their own future. Hence the real political challenge for the opponents of occupation: how to build bridges among all of its victims, Palestinian and Israeli, Jews and Arabs, in order to halt colonialism and to build a different future for all.levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-1141431609466888462006-03-04T00:17:00.000+00:002007-08-11T00:01:36.268+01:00From the <a href="http://www.thejc.com">Jewish Chronicle</a>:<span style="font-weight:bold;">Critics blast Board over Ken </span><br /><br /><br />02 March 2006<br /><br /><br />By <span style="font-style:italic;">Daniella Peled </span><br /><br />The Board of Deputies has rebutted communal criticism of its decision to report Ken Livingstone to the Standards Board for likening a Jewish reporter to a concentration camp guard, which led to the Adjudication Panel for England imposing a four-week suspension on the London mayor.<br /><br />As Mr Livingstone obtained a last-minute High Court decision to freeze the suspension — which had been due to take effect on Wednesday — Zionist Federation president Eric Moonman told the JC that the Board’s decision to report Mr Livingstone over his remark to the Evening Standard’s Oliver Finegold could bring an “extremely serious” backlash against the community. The Board has received dozens of antisemitic emails since the panel’s verdict last Friday.<br /><br />Recent events such as the imprisonment of revisionist historian David Irving for Holocaust denial in Austria had created the impression that Jews demanded special treatment, Mr Moonman argued. <br /><br />“If I was an official of the Board, I would probably have felt enormous pressure to do something,” he acknowledged. “But it would have been much more skillful to get a number of people to campaign on our behalf.<br /><br />“We need to have some serious strategy about how the Jewish community deals with the mayor of London. He’s much more media savvy than anyone on the Board.”<br /><br />Facing legal costs approaching £80,000, Mr Livingstone accused the Board of utilising “McCarthyism updated for a new age,” and persecuting him to silence his outspoken criticism of Israel.<br /><br />The suspension has been criticised by political foes as well as allies. His legal challenge will be heard later this month.<br /><br />Another communal critic of the Board’s action was Institute for Jewish Policy Research director Tony Lehrman, who warned that “when people want to act in the name of the Jewish community, they need to think carefully about the consequences.<br /><br />“My feeling in relation to the incident [with Mr Finegold] was that it was clearly offensive. It would have been better if he had apologised, but I question the wisdom of turning it into a major public incident.”<br /><br />Board director-general Jon Benjamin dismissed the suggestion that the mayor’s views on Israel had been a factor in its complaint. Mr Livingstone’s remark to Oliver Finegold had attracted widespread condemnation, with Tony Blair among those offended.<br /><br />“It is quite bizarre that we should be criticised by going through the route placed there by Parliament,” Mr Benjamin maintained.<br /><br />While supportive of the Board’s action, the Central Synagogue’s Rabbi Barry Marcus cautioned: “I think the community needs to keep quiet now. The more we react, the more we keep him in the public eye.”<br /><br />Maidenhead Reform’s Rabbi Jonathan Romain believed it had been right to report Mr Livingstone, but feared that “there may be a short-term loss in that he’s getting a lot of public sympathy.”levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6630903.post-1140261225366960822006-02-18T11:01:00.000+00:002006-02-18T11:13:45.893+00:00From the <a href="http://www.thejc.com">Jewish Chronicle</a><br /><br /><span style="font-weight:bold;">Strong nerves needed</span><br /><br /><span style="font-style:italic;">16 February 2006</span><br /><br />By Chief Rabbi Sir Jonathan Sacks illuminates the ideals that lie behind prayer — one of the three pillars of the High Holy-days, along with charity and repentance<br /><br />Chief Rabbi Sir Jonathan Sacks argues that British Jewry must remain calm in the face of recent, highly disturbing events, and continue to engage with the wider community<br /><br /><br /><br />The strength of a people is tested in troubled times. These are troubled times. Events have succeeded one another at breakneck pace: the Iranian threat to wipe Israel off the map; the election by the Palestinians of Hamas, a group committed to the destruction of Israel; the violence following the publication of the Danish cartoons; and the Abu Hamza trial.<br /><br />Locally there was the vote of the synod of the Church of England to heed a call to divest from companies associated with Israel; the Populus poll of British Muslims; and Guardian articles accusing Israel of being an apartheid state. These are of altogether lesser consequence, but they have added to our sense of vulnerability. How should we respond?<br /><br />First let us acknowledge our an-ger and pain. Israel has taken great risks for peace, yet it seems at every stage to be rewarded with further hostility. The Jewish community in Britain has contributed immensely to national life, yet after 350 years we still feel at risk. Nor are our fears ungrounded. We have long and bitter memories. We recognise danger when we see it.<br /><br />To feel anger and pain is natural. To act on it, though, is another matter entirely. It is what our enemies anticipated. Often, it is what they intended. Action in the heat of emotion can be rash and ill-judged. It can make things worse. It can lead people to focus on the moment instead of thinking long-term. Especially if a group is small, it must choose its battlegrounds carefully. Wherever possible, it should not fight alone. <br /><br />It must win friends, and make its case from the highest of moral grounds. That is not weakness but wisdom. Be deliberate in judgement, said the sages. They might have added: especially when the stakes are high.<br /><br />We carry with us decisive grounds for courage. The Jewish people has survived longer than any other religion or civilisation the West has known. It was threatened by the Egyptians, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, ancient Greece and Rome, the medieval empires of Christianity and Islam, and in the 20th century by the Third Reich and the Soviet Union. Each once bestrode the narrow world like a colossus, but all were eventually consigned to the pages of history. The Jewish people — seemingly small, weak, powerless — still lives. These encounters were not without their human cost, sometimes immense. But after each, the Jewish people rebuilt itself, never more <br />so than after the Holocaust. If the strength of the people is tested in troubled times, ours is a people of awe-inspiring strength.<br /><br />We must now work together as a community, developing strategies, pooling our wisdom, cultivating our allies, sharing our strengths. Several meetings to this end have already taken place in recent days, and the work will continue in the coming months. We must respond with dignity and calm, thinking long-term, avoiding predictable reactions, never stooping to the level of our opponents. In tense times, the advantage goes to the group with the strongest nerves. After all that has befallen our people, we have strong nerves.<br /><br />The most important fact about the present situation is that on the big issues, neither Israel nor the Jewish people stand alone. An Iran with nuclear capability is a threat not only to Israel but to the world. Condoleezza Rice and Tony Blair have seen this clearly. So too have Jacques Chirac and Angela Merkel. Chirac’s statement on January 19 that France was prepared to launch a nuclear strike against any country sponsoring a terrorist attack against French interests, and Angela Merkel’s <br />comparison of Ahmadinejad to Hitler, were immensely significant signals. These <br />politicians know that the diatribes against Israel are a thinly disguised attack on <br />the West and its freedoms.<br /><br />As for the election of Hamas, this became inevitable because of the corruption of the previous regime. Every Palestinian knew this. The point, though, is that so did leading European politicians, who none the less continued to fund the Arafat administration. The politics of “sup with the devil so long as it’s the devil you know” works in the short term but never in the long. America discovered this after funding the mujahideen radicals — Osama Bin-Laden’s early associates — in Afghanistan in the 1980s. <br /><br />Europe must not make this mistake again.<br /><br />The violence following the Danish cartoons exceeded all bounds. Rightly, key<br />representatives of the British Muslim community have dissociated themselves from it. The cartoons should not have been published. But if free speech has limits for the Danish press, it has limits for those who protest against the Danish press. As John Locke, the architect of tolerance, said more than three centuries ago: “It is unreasonable that any should have a free liberty of their religion who do not acknowledge it as a principle of theirs that nobody ought to persecute or molest another because he dissents from him in religion.”<br /><br />On all these issues we take our stand with those prepared to fight for tolerance, non-violent conflict resolution, moderation, mutual respect, self-restraint and the civilities of a free society. This is not a Jewish struggle but a human one, and we will work with people of goodwill, whatever their faith or lack of it.<br /><br />The vote of the synod of the Church of England to “heed” a call to divestment from certain companies associated with Israel was ill-judged even on its own terms. The immediate result will be to reduce the Church’s ability to act as a force for peace between Israel and the Palestinians for as long as the decision remains in force. The essence of mediation is the willingness to listen to both sides.<br /><br />The timing could not have been more inappropriate. Israel has risked civil war to carry out the Gaza withdrawal, the first time in the history of the Middle East that a nation has evacuated territory gained in a defensive war without a single concession, even the most nominal, on the other side.<br /><br />Israel faces two enemies, Iran and Hamas, open in their threat to eliminate it. It needs support, not vilification.<br /><br />For years I have called on religious groups in Britain to send a message of friendship and coexistence to conflict zones throughout the world, instead of importing those conflicts into Britain itself. The effect of the synod vote will be the opposite. The Church has chosen to take a stand on the politics of the Middle East, over which it has no influence, knowing that it will have the most adverse repercussions on a situation over which it has enormous influence, namely Jewish-Christian relations in Britain.<br /><br />That is why we cannot let the matter rest. If there was one candle of hope above all others after the Holocaust it was that Jews and Christians at last learned to speak to one another after some 17 centuries of hostility that led to exiles, expulsions, ghettoes, forced conversions, staged disputations, libels, inquisitions, burnings at the stake, massacres and pogroms. We must not let that candle be extinguished.<br /><br />The Church could have chosen, instead of penalizing Israel, to invest in the<br />Palestinian economy. That would have helped the Palestinians. It would have had the support of most Israelis and most Jews. Indeed it is an Australian-born Jew, James Wolfensohn, former head of the World Bank, who is supervising the reconstruction of the Palestinian economy on behalf of the Group of Four, and who personally raised the funds to buy for the Palestinians the Israeli agricultural facilities in Gaza. The Church’s gesture will hurt Israelis and Jews without helping the Palestinians.<br /><br />As a community, we must engage more actively in the promotion of good community relations, especially at the local level. We must teach ourselves and others the full history of our people’s 4,000-year bond with the land of Israel; how we were ousted by empire after empire but always returned; how Israel in the days of the prophets and today tirelessly sought peace, only to be rewarded with war. We must cultivate the friendship of people of generosity of spirit in all faiths. We must work with journalists who know that truth is never partisan. We must seek the support of politicians who speak to the highest, not the lowest, instincts of the public. We have enemies, but we have many friends.<br /><br />Above all, we must take our stand on the value system Abraham and Judaism conferred on the world. The crisis humanity faces in the 21st century is not just political or economic, military or diplomatic. It is moral and spiritual.<br /><br />Can we be true to our faith while being a blessing to others regardless of their faith? Can we heed the call of God to mend not destroy? <br /><br />Aggression is the child of fear, and the only lasting antidote is the faith that <br />says, “Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no<br />evil, for You are with me.”<br /><br />We will never cease to love Israel, pray for peace, and work for the benefit of humanity. Our nerves must stay strong, our judgment calm and our language cool. And we will win. For if Jewish history has a message to the world, it is that there is something in the human spirit that cannot be defeated — something that gave and still gives our tiny, afflicted, tempest-tossed people the strength to outlive all its enemies while enlarging the moral imagination of mankind.levi9909http://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.com