Wednesday, November 15, 2017

When Dodgy Dave met Uncle Joe

When Dodgy Dave met Uncle Joe

I had a bit of a twitter exchange with David Aaronovitch the other day.  I went into it with some trepidation because I thought some troll might pop up to derail the thread, simply insult Dave's interlocutor or even come out as a zionist sympathiser having been anti-zionist in the past.  I even thought that Dave himself might be on good form but it was not to be.

It all started when I noticed an unremarkable tweet from @ejhchess to @Flying_Rodent:
Justin Horton @ejhchess
@flying_rodent A friend of yours is engaging in logic https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/502514527184117760 …

From David Aaronovitch's "logical" tweet I saw Dave angrily challenging someone called i was id (@iwasid to "Find me a single thing either of us has said or written that supports right-wing racism anywhere. One."

Well as coincidence would have it I noticed something Dave had written only the day before for the Jewish Chronicle that I thought was racist so, with some trepidation (see above) I mentioned it in a tweet:
David Aaronovitch @DAaronovitch
@iwasid Find me a single thing either of us has said or written that supports right-wing racism anywhere. One. @Dannythefink @Brian_Whit
Jews Sans Frontieres @jewssf
.@DAaronovitch this looks like a crude right wing racist generalisation "new minorities now hate old ones" http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/columnists/121642/nows-not-time-pack-suitcase-and-leave-uk … @iwasid
1 Retweet 4 favorites


To which Dave replied:
  David Aaronovitch @DAaronovitch
@jewssf It only looks like that to you, Mark, because that's what you want to see.


To which I responded:
Jews Sans Frontieres @jewssf
.@DAaronovitch your statement "new minorities now hate the old ones" is racist for all to see http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/columnists/121642/nows-not-time-pack-suitcase-and-leave-uk … not just me
2 Retweets 2 favorites

And another guy joined in:

 And Dave responded, warming to his subjectivity theme:

 At this point it started to look like he wasn't simply being slippery, he really didn't know what was racist about generalising about whole minority groups so I explained:
Now he did start to get slippery:
 Yes I did know it was about France but how does that change anything?

I also mentioned that his last tweet was a non sequitur but now tetchiness was setting in as a nerve seems to have been struck:

Wow! What was that all about?  How does using "surely" amount to Stalinism?  Reading back I wish I hadn't used the word surely because it should have been clear by then that he really didn't know that his generalisation was racist.  Also I if I didn't say "surely" I could have put the apostrophe in "countrys" making it "country's".  Still never mind, it was worth the bad grammer to see Aaro lose it like a complete idiot.

It must have been while I was tweeting something else that Aaro tweeted to a @rico_hands and me that "You retweeted this earlier: "The Zionist Jews own all the Media the Film Industry and are all Corrupt."  It didn't look like a comment I'd approve of and I said so and Aaro said it wasn't me, it was that Rico chap.  I know some people put all their addressees at the beginning of a tweet but if you're making an accusation you should only put the target of the accusation at the beginning and other addressees at the end.  Just a word on protocol because people can get the wrong idea. Anyway, I asked Aaro for a link and he told me it wasn't me that retweeted it.  So that was nice.

But I still responded to the stalinist thing:

 So now he tried to modify what he actually said:

 Now actually I don't think that's much better but is better in that it's not a generalisation.  But it is a rather bland assertion and it's devoid of any analysis as to what he means by antisemitism or any explanation as to why he thinks it's the case but anyway back I came still focused on the undeniably (though he did deny it) racist  generalisation:

 Noticing that Aaro's reference to antisemitism meant that he was alluding to Jews when he said "old ones", I asked then what he meant by "new minorities" but heard no more from him.

Now all the while this was going on I was surprised that no one came along to help Aaro dig himself out of the hole he had dug.  None came until that Gerasite/Unrepentant Jacobin chap, Jamie Palmer appeared with this little gem:


I just couldn't be bothered with him and I was truly feeling too sorry for Aaro to point that Jacobin's use of the word "also" meant that he was agreeing with me, that what Aaro had written was indeed a racist generalisation (also).  Aaro smartly ignored the "supportive" tweet too and he was promoting the young Gerasite only recently

But what of the statement itself?  "Ethnic hatred has become a basic element in the everyday life of Israeli youth".  Of itself, it isn't making a generalisation.  As it stands it could simply be a reference to the racist environment that Israeli youth inhabits.  I found its origin just now.  It's a Ha'aretz headline.

Of course, Ha'aretz is an Israeli newspaper.  Israelis are not a minority in Israel so the headline wasn't even about a minority.  So a great help Aaro's protégé turned out to be.  He confirmed my own point about Aaro's racist generalisation and lifted a Ha'aretz headline out of context.  I'm sure he'll go far but he and Aaro have to bear in mind that context is all.
Posted by levi9909 @ 10:37 am 1 Comment
Labels:,,
Posted by at

Wednesday, May 01, 2013

MacShane in Ha'aretz


http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/wake-up-to-the-anti-semitism-you-complacent-british-middle-classes.premium-1.518375

Wake up to the anti-Semitism, you complacent British middle classes

The U.K.'s comfortable, critical-of-Israel middle classes are unwilling to accept that anti-Semitism is a contemporary problem that constantly manifests itself in new forms, as the recent contemptuous tribunal findings on anti-Semitism in academia showed.

By | Apr.30, 2013 | 12:46 PM |  29
europe map
Anti-Semitism is growing in strength in Europe, and hate of Israel increases in England.  
                                                                                                                                                              Photo by Yuval Tubol


Just before the 1997 election a row broke out when the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung described Britain’s then Foreign Secretary, Sir Malcolm Rifkind, as "the Jew Rifkind…" In my diary of the time, I recorded a dinner exchange in Islington, north London between two old university friends:
"We have a big discussion on anti-Semitism after the Rifkind row. The main protagonists are Jonathan, who says it’s everywhere, and Flavia who says it doesn’t exist. Thus the two worlds of England today. A caring, liberal, wholly English upper-middle class woman who has simply never encountered anti-Semitism and an earnest, engaged, energetic Jew like Jonathan who has never stopped encountering it. I side with Jonathan of course, and it remains a big problem that the rising intolerance, whether it is about Jews or Muslims, is simply not understood by many decent people in this country."
I came across this entry as I sought to make sense of the recent ruling on Ronnie Fraser, the college lecturer who sought to persuade an English legal tribunal that the ban decreed by his union against contact with fellow Jews in Israeli colleges and universities was anti-Semitic in its politics.
Trying to persuade the complacent, comfortable, critical-of-Israel middle classes in England that anti-Semitism is a live problem and one that constantly manifests itself in new forms is an uphill task. Giles Fraser (no relation to Ronnie), is England’s most prominent Anglican priest, and wrote recently that "Even assimilated Jews are not always protected by their integration with surrounding society."
Sadly, an English judicial tribunal has just confirmed the Rev. Fraser's thesis. To read in full the banal, contemptuous dismissal of Ronnie Fraser's efforts to show that a one-sided ban on contacts with Jewish academics in Israel, decreed by the U.K.’s University and College Union (of lecturers), was an assault on his existence as a Jew, was a miserable experience.
Of course, trying to use an employment tribunal as a means to take on institutional anti-Semitism was always a risk. Three decades ago, I was president of the National Union of Journalists, and I saw then how the annual conferences of these small professional unions functions as a playground for political activists, cutting their teeth on all sorts of extremist politics, before moving on.
To Ronnie Fraser's brave legal team I expressed my concern that employment law judges were not people who were intellectually equipped to deal with the UCU's action against Jews in the U.K. and in Israel. But they believed that the law exists to protect the individual against a powerful, wealthy organization like a trade union.
They were wrong. The ugliness of the tribunal findings beggars belief. The European Union's definition of anti-Semitism is dismissed. The work of the House of Commons Committee of Inquiry into anti-Semitism that I chaired – which forced a change in government policy to acknowledge anti-Semitic attacks - is rubbished. The efforts of Fraser to use the law are openly insulted. The view of an important public Commission of Inquiry into the 1993 racist murder of a black youth, Stephen Lawrence, which stated that the police are obliged to investigate crimes that the victim of discrimination or attacks believes to be motivated by racial or religious hatred, is thrown away.
For anti-Semites everywhere this is a big win. After an English courtdestroyed David Irving for his neo-Nazism, another English court has now 15 years later upheld the right of a union to target Jews. It is a defeat but one that should encourage us all to redouble our efforts precisely at a time that anti-Semitism is growing in strength in Europe, and hate of Israel increases in England.
Of course there will be some Jewish legal experts in London who insist the case should not have been fought. Anyone who has contact with the law knows the arbitrary, highly personalized nature of judges. In Britain, they come from a narrow, professional, conservative elite. Judges dealing with employment law are experts on workplace grievances, compensation, and unfair dismissal. Asking them to adjudicate on Israel-Palestine, the meaning of Zionism and whether institutional anti-Semitism really exists was a big task.
I was a witness at the tribunal, and it was clear that I was facing three middle-class English people who - like my friend that I noted in my diary - just refused to accept that anti-Semitism is a contemporary problem. I looked at their implacable, indifferent, bored faces and knew the case was lost. But sometimes it is better to fight and lose than wait for a perfect moment when your case and cause will emerge triumphant.
Those engaged in combating anti-Semitism in Britain are down-hearted. But although I am not Jewish, I am proud to have been linked with the cause Ronnie Fraser stood for. The struggle goes on despite the faint-hearts and the self-righteous, those who express their wisdom after the event, who wish it had never been engaged.
What is needed now is a major review of the last decade of combating anti-Semitism and hate of Israel. The EU’s indifference to the open commemoration of Waffen SS Jew-killers in Lithuania and Latvia, as well as the entry into mainstream Hungarian politics of Jew-baiting is worrying.
In Britain, the anti-European populist party, the United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP), has just had to suspend a leading candidate after allegations that she tweeted about Zionists organizing the Holocaust, and activists from the anti-Jewish British National Party, now in electoral decline, are migrating to a UKIP rising in the polls. Expect to see an increase in the number of racist identity politicians, including anti-Semites, elected to the European Parliament in 2014. Leftist and Islamist BDS campaigns grow apace in universities.
The struggle against anti-Semitism is more relevant than ever; but working out the best strategy and tactics for the next decade of work is now overdue.
Posted by at

Friday, February 08, 2013

HP on RM


Leave a message...
  • Avatar
    Discredited Andrew  a day ago
    I keep noticing these little digs at Jews from certain quarters for not being pro-Israel and/or hawkish enough. Apparently Jews are obliged to push a neo-con agenda in order to be accepted as equals. Nasty stuff. Not that anybody here cares.
    • Avatar
      Lbnaz  Discredited Andrew  13 hours ago
      Of course the neocon agenda. Here's a little snippet for you Discredited Andrew. At our 1980 Annual General Meeting at an undisclosed location, those of us who favoured calling it the Protocols of the Neocon Elders of Zion were only narrowly outmaneuvered by those preferring to call it the Neocon Agenda. Basically, the Neocon Agenda camp were not at all suggesting any break with the agenda of the early 20th century Protocols, rather they wanted a name that would lull enough of the "goyim" into unwittingly acquiescing to that agenda without glimpsing any linkage or continuity between the early 20th c Protocols and the contemporary manifesto outlining our nefarious machinations.
      We are succeeding in this ruse and so you Discredited Andrew and those like you who truly grasp the linkage between the Neocon Agenda and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion have a steep uphill climb to convince the masses of our nefarious schemes. You have your work cut out for you. Good luck with that.
    • Avatar
      David All  2 days ago
      Murdoch would not know irony if it bit him in his rear. He may have been sarcastic when he asked why Jewish-owned newspapers like the Washington Post and the New York Times are so critical of Israel, but irony is beyond a bully like Murdoch
      • Avatar
        Lbnaz  David All  2 days ago
        Of course, disliking Rupert Murdoch automatically means he is incapable of comprehending or employing irony. And why just stop at irony, disliking Rupert Murdoch must also automatically mean he is incapable of smiling, laughing or crying.
      • Avatar
        vildechaye  2 days ago
        Here's a way to end this absolutely stultifying stupid "argument" with flying rat: He asked:
        "So if Steve Bell starts talking seriously about Jewish-owned media's anti-Israel bias, he'll get a free pass, will he?"
        Yes he would get a free pass. Of course, Steve Bell would never say that, as he believes quite the opposite.
        • Avatar
          Israelinurse  2 days ago
          The overwhelming impression I got from listening to Steve Bell's appearance on the Today programme was that a) he was way out of his depth and does not understand properly what antisemitism is - certainly not the blood libel - and b) he's not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
        • Avatar
          SarahAB Mod  2 days ago
          Terrible about Lars Hedergaard (not that I am a fan)
          • Avatar
            Mattwales  2 days ago
            From the PCC ruling on Steven Bells puppet Cartoon:
            "Under the terms of Clause 12 (Discrimination) of the Code, newspapers ‘must avoid prejudicial or pejorative reference to an individual’s race, colour, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or to any physical or mental illness or disability’. The terms of the Clause do not, however, cover references to groups or categories of people, such as Jewish people in general. While the Commission acknowledged that many complainants considered the article to have been anti-Semitic and prejudicial toward Jewish people as a group, therefore, it was unable to establish a breach of the Code on this basis."
            This suggests that they dont view anti-semitism as racism as they see Jews as a group, not a race.
            So something could actually be deemed to be anti-semitic and wouldn't breach the PCC code so they wouldnt rule on it.
            Perhaps this is why Mr Bell and his fellow travellers keep getting away with this crap.
            • Avatar
              kreplach  Mattwales  2 days ago
              While the Commission acknowledged that many complainants considered the article to have been anti-Semitic and prejudicial toward Jewish people as a group, therefore, it was unable to establish a breach of the Code on this basis."
              On that basis the PCC would have no problem with Motoons or publishing "Charlie Hebdo" as a guest writer.
            • Avatar
              Gene Mod  2 days ago
              Taking a second look: Bell has really gone over the edge in Breitbartian fashion.
              • Avatar
                Shatterface  2 days ago
                In fairness I think political cartoons are shit in general.
                By its nature characature attracts 'artists' who see others purely in terms of skin colour, hooked or flat noses, ginger hair, big ears, buck teeth, squinted eyes or an actual disability.
                Physical characature is the art of demonising those who don't conform to the Aryan ideal: once you've made them physically abhorent it's easy to characterise them as wicked, corrupt, manipulative, sexually perverse, etc.
                • Avatar
                  Gene Mod  Shatterface  2 days ago
                  In fairness I think political cartoons are shit in general.
                  There are masters of the craft like the late Herblock. And then there are mean-spirited, frequently incomprehensible hacks like Steve Bell.
                • Avatar
                  andy_gill  2 days ago
                  Bell is a self-righteous bullying pillock. He lost control on the Today programme when debating with a dignified Stephen Pollard of the Jewish Chronicle, and he's still fuming with shame and embarrassment.
                  And now he's making an even bigger tit of himself. He can dish it out, but the poor fellow can't take it. Nice to see him being on the receiving end for a change.
                  • Avatar
                    NicoleS  2 days ago
                    Mick Hartley is spot on as usual:http://mickhartley.typepad.com...
                  • Avatar
                    Shatterface  2 days ago
                    I think the one on the right might be Kruschev but I'm not sure why he's talking to the Mekon.
                    • Avatar
                      quizblorg  2 days ago
                      These new cartoons go a step further than Bell's last Netanyahu cartoon - in addition to using the puppetmaster trope again, he also defiantly asserts his right to use it, while mocking the idea that anti-Semitic tropes even exist.
                      He's really not even trying to keep his mask from slipping anymore.
                      • Avatar
                        Sarka  2 days ago
                        Poor old Steve, he just can't stop himself going on digging, digging, digging.
                      • Avatar
                        vildechaye  2 days ago
                        I realize this wasn't his intent, but in that first comic strip, he's actually undermining the position of those who think like him. He probably believes he's saying that the press can't be anti-Israel because it's Jewish owned, but it can just as easily be read the other way: i.e. how can the press be "jewish-owned" if it's consistently anti-Israel, which in Britain, seems pretty much to be the case, whereas, also in Britain, the press ISNT primarily Jewish owned. (Actually, it isn't primarily Jewish owned anywhere, but that's another story.)
                        I do of course recognize that the figures as they're drawn lend themselves to the interpretation Bell wanted, but given the fact that the British press does take an anti-israel line most of the time and that it isn't Jewish owned, the latter interpretation is more accurate (in my opinion, anyway).
                        • Avatar
                          matt  2 days ago
                          Steve Bell remains a wholly unfunny Jew hating cunt who should no longer be getting a platform in a national newspaper. But the Jew hatred has always been endemic at The Guardian.
                          • Avatar
                            gregusmeus  matt  2 days ago
                            Being quarantined published in the Guardian is the best place for him; at least no real people will have to read his bollox.
                            • Avatar
                              Paul J  matt  2 days ago
                              In fairness to steve Bell, he doesn't only hate Jews. He hates Brits, Americans, tories, the labour party, and anyone who isn't a quasi-progressive ultra-liberal pro-Islamist f*ckwit like him.
                              So that leaves a few Guardian readers and writers, basically.
                            • Avatar
                              Gene Mod  3 days ago
                              I'm not sure I understand Mr. Bell's point. But I'm left with a distressing feeling of sympathy for two of my least favorite people: Rupert Murdoch and Bibi Netanyahu.
                              • Avatar
                                flyingrodent  Gene  2 days ago
                                I'd suggest that Steve Bell is giving the finger to his critics.
                                Further, I suspect that he might be making an extremely pertinent point, i.e. that it's very odd indeed that many people - folk from various ethic, national and religious backgrounds, but who share very similar political beliefs - will go absolutely berserk about certain forms of antisemitic tropes, but find excuses or generally tut-tut and mildly fingerwag others.
                                For instance - isn't it odd that there's such a massive outcry when little-known cartoonists draw politicians with puppets or blood and so on, but barely any upset at all from the same people when Rupert Murdoch, the most powerful media figure on Earth, starts blathering about Jewish-controlled media?
                                I mean, that is odd, isn't it? Rupert Murdoch has a global reach, in media terms, whereas 99.9% of the populace of the UK will never even see a Steve Bell cartoon.
                                Which would certainly lead me to believe that the entire issue may have more to do with heavily-politicised bullshit than it does with any matter of principle.
                                Does Steve Bell believe that? I've no idea, but I suspect he'd be correct if he did. It would certainly mean that he isn't laughing at anti-semitism, so much as he's laughing at his critics as individuals, for being mendacious, opportunistic fannies. Which is fair enough, in at least half the cases I've seen, I'd say.
                                • Avatar
                                  vildechaye  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                  There's DA, there's DA-lite, and there's DA-lite-lite.
                                  • Avatar
                                    Sarka  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                    It's not impossible that Bell thinks he is making this deeply ironic point. But successful irony depends on the ironist having understood what it is he is trying to be ironic about. Otherwise he seems dim-witted or incomprehensible.
                                    You might think about that in your own case.
                                    By the way, since satirists are supposed to get us to laugh at the ridiculousness of nasty opinions, rather than just feel deeply shocked and outraged, it's rather a pity that Bell doesn't try to get as to "laugh at antisemitism" but rather to jeer or otherwise emote "with antisemitism".
                                    • Avatar
                                      flyingrodent  Sarka  2 days ago
                                      It's not impossible that Bell thinks he is making this deeply ironic point.
                                      I'd say it's fairly clear that Bell is saying - screw Murdoch, screw Stephen Pollard in particular and screw the type of militant radge that hangs about in HP comments threads, detecting racism all over the place, but with convenient frequency in the behaviours of folk they just happen to violently disagree with anyway. Murdoch having previously made comments that would land non-right-wing-nutters in deep hassle with such folks is just a club to hit you and your political fellow-thinkers with.
                                      I think Bell's a bit of an arse, as it happens. He could've made his point - that every Israeli assault on wherever turns into a feeble political charade worldwide, as western leaders automatically side with Netanyahu or his predecessor for self-interested reasons, IIRC - without the whiffy puppet analogy, and that once brought up on it he should've shown a bit of humility. Very clearly, he thinks that his cartoon was of a piece with the way he'd treat any other politician in such circumstances, and that his critics are basically politically-motivated bullshitters, rather than upstanding anti-racist crusaders.
                                      There's more than a ring of truth to this, by the way, but there are diplomatic ways to phrase reasonable arguments that are guaranteed to enrage people who are already pissed. Instead, he's reacted to the Scarfe nonsense by basically extending a middle finger to the lot of his critics. It's an arsey, childish and counter-productive way to deal with the situation, but he's always struck me as that kind of guy. I'm often like that myself.
                                      That said, this kind of thing didn't used to happen. The usual crowd here are saying that this is all because the Graun is the new Sturmer, and who knows? Perhaps they hold black cabals of violent bigotry, just out of the throbbing black hate in their middle-class, metropolitan hearts.
                                      On the other hand, I'd ask you to consider for a moment that quite a few folk in the media now seem to be treating these kinds of complaints not as a serious issue, but much as they would bitching from any kind of loony minority interest group with a bee in its bonnet that accuses them of Nazism.
                                      Assuming I'm right about that - and I'm reasonably sure that I am - how do you think the fight for Israel's good name and anti-racism in the UK is going, guys? Is the instant-Nazi-accusation-without-pause-for-thought mode of argument working well, would you say? Having the desired results?
                                      And if it isn't, well, maybe it's time for a change of tack, eh?
                                    • Avatar
                                      Lamia  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                      when Rupert Murdoch, the most powerful media figure on Earth, starts blathering about Jewish-controlled media?
                                      You are being disingenuous. Murdoch was mocking the 'anti-zionist' trope that Jews control the media (as well as politicians etc.) and that as a result critics of Israel are 'silenced'. His tweet is a comment on the absurdity of that trope - in the first place anti-Israel critics aren't silenced in the media; in the second, Jewish people in the media are if anything accomodating, not obstructing of criticism of Israel. And in the third case, the source of the tweet itself is a reminder that obviously Jews don't control the media - Murdoch himself is not a Jew (although countless 'anti-zionists' have assumed he is), and in fact he's the most powerful media magnate in the world.
                                      By contrast, when Steve Bell depicted the Israeli PM as puppeting British politicians, he wasn't mocking or ironising the trope of Jewish control. He was simply re-using it.
                                      I mean, that is odd, isn't it? Rupert Murdoch has a global reach, in media terms,
                                      Yes, and I am sure he knows that. It's only odd if you insist on reading Murdoch, of all people, as truly arguing that Jews control the global media, rather than taking the piss of that trope.
                                      • Avatar
                                        vildechaye  Lamia  2 days ago
                                        RE: You are being disingenuous.
                                        DA-lite-lite's stock in trade.
                                        • Avatar
                                          Lynne T  Lamia  2 days ago
                                          Or, reading exactly what he tweeted, possibly wondering why it is that Jewish owned "liberal" publications and, for that matter journalists like Tom Friedmann who scribbles for the NYT, are generally more critical of Israel than non-Jewish owned "liberal" media.
                                          The flip side of this is that the perception out there is that if these publications held Israel to the same standards as they hold most other nations, it wouild be seen as soft-pedalling due to bias.
                                          • Avatar
                                            Jimithefox  Lynne T  2 days ago
                                            The flip side of this is that the perception out there is that if these publications held Israel to the same standards as they hold most other nations, it wouild be seen as soft-pedalling due to bias.
                                            Yes - because (some of these) these liberal organs (ooo missus) are owned by Jews and / or have 'a disproportionate' number of journalists who are Jews working in them, they must be seen as attacking Israel fiercely lest they be accused of bias or worse (5th columnblahblah, Israelfirstersblahblah).
                                        • Avatar
                                          zachary esterson  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                          [but barely any upset at all from the same people when Rupert Murdoch, 
                                          the most powerful media figure on Earth, starts blathering about 
                                          Jewish-controlled media?]
                                          It rather depends what he blathers. He blathered Jewish +owned+ media was consistently anti-Israel. He was scarcely using an antisemitic trope thereby.
                                          • Avatar
                                            flyingrodent  zachary esterson  2 days ago
                                            He blathered Jewish +owned+ media was consistently anti-Israel. He was scarcely using an antisemitic trope thereby.
                                            And that's fairly convenient, isn't it? Google seems to disagree, since a cursory search brings up a frighteningly long list of nutters, cranks and racists.
                                            So if Steve Bell starts talking seriously about Jewish-owned media's anti-Israel bias, he'll get a free pass, will he? Or is it only not a trope within the very specific context of "Jewish-owned media" being discussed by a man who just coincidentally happens to be a highly belligerent, right-wing fan of bombing the Palestinians and everyone else?
                                            Because you know, that looks pretty convenient too.
                                            • Avatar
                                              vildechaye  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                              Do you work at being an idiot or does it just come naturally to you? Since when is a non-Jews control the media remark (Murdoch) the same as a Jews DO control the media (Bell) the same?
                                              • Avatar
                                                zachary esterson  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                                [So if Steve Bell starts talking seriously about Jewish-owned media's anti-Israel bias, he'll get a free pass, will he?]
                                                Murdoch didn't get a 'free pass' because he wasn't seen as saying anything particularly harmful, even if anecdotally most Jews I know would have raised eyebrows about its being true, anecdotally most Jews' I know sympathising with Israel.
                                                It depends what he means by being 'anti'-Israel: 'critical' or 'genuinely hostile.' The former is unlikely to rouse much antipathy, the latter chiefly bemusement. If he meant the latter and attempted to effect some end which Jews generally thought detrimental to Israel, that might be different i.e. if they felt Murdoch was genuinely misrepresenting +them+ in some situation that mattered.
                                                I think Murdoch just meant that (in his experience) when non-Jews such as he say or write something sympathetic to Israel, a Jewish journalist or writer will adduce a contrary argument.
                                                Jews have a history of comporting themselves and their views with (what they regard as) the authority, since historically that has ensured their survival. Ironically sometimes a non-Jew, who does not feel so constrained, will feel freer to express views sympathetic to some Jews than other Jews.This has not been an uncommon situation since the Reformation and Enlightenment, the Jewish establishment being often more rigorous in its criticisms of its own than society generally e.g. the British Board of Jewish Deputies historically often overruled or ignored grassroots sympathy for Zionism, publicly criticising it in strong terms, lest, they felt, sympathy for it brought some penalty or discrimination against (what they saw as) their Jewish charges.
                                                • Avatar
                                                  zachary esterson  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                                  [And that's fairly convenient, isn't it? Google seems to disagree, since
                                                  a cursory search brings up a frighteningly long list of nutters, cranks
                                                  and racists.]
                                                  Really? That Jewish owned media is consistently +anti+-Israel?
                                                  Do you even read what you write or are writing about?
                                                  • Avatar
                                                    Lamia  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                                    " Google seems to disagree, since a cursory search brings up a frighteningly long list of nutters, cranks and racists."
                                                    A cursory search of what? Of the idea that Jewish-owned press is consistently anti-Israel?
                                                    Where? Examples please?
                                                    Was it really a 'cursory' search, or just a dimwitted one in which you confused 'anti-Israel' with 'pro-Israel'?
                                                  • Avatar
                                                    Jimithefox  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                                    Yes - the nutcases in high and low places all believe that Jews exert power via their control of the media which enables Jews and their proxy, Israel, to conceal their and its crimes which range from fomenting war to carrying out genocide.
                                                    Murdoch does not believe this.
                                                    • Avatar
                                                      flyingrodent  Jimithefox  2 days ago
                                                      Murdoch does not believe this.
                                                      This is either a vastly greater level of intellectual charity than is normally applied round these parts, or an incredible example of mind-reading.
                                                      It's also an exceptional raising of the bar for what is and is not suspicious, isn't it? I'm sure you'd admit that a Bell or a Scarfe would have a thousand angry Tweets shoved down their necks if they tried something similar. That's before we get onto statesmen or media figures.
                                                      • Avatar
                                                        vildechaye  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                                        you've totally lost whatever plot you may once have had. truly pathetic one doesn't need intellectual "charity" to understand Murdoch's remark was quite the OPPOSITE of anti-semitism or of Bell's supposed satire. It fairly screams out. you're embarrassing yourself.
                                                        • Avatar
                                                          flyingrodent  vildechaye  2 days ago
                                                          Okay, okay. So, next time some well-known figure drops a zinger about how weirdly "the Jewish-owned media" acts during a crisis, that'll be fine.
                                                          So long as it's someone with sufficiently belligerent, bomb 'em all opinions, that is. If they said it while calling for less bombing, that would be unacceptable. More bombing though? Dandy.
                                                          Nope, you guys surely have this one right. It's surely perfectly reasonable to imply that media organs should act in a particular manner because of the ethnicity of their owners, even if media as propaganda by folk of that ethnicity was a Nazi favourite. Why, that's the OPPOSITE of racism, isn't it?
                                                          • Avatar
                                                            zachary esterson  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                                            [It's surely perfectly reasonable to imply that media organs should act 
                                                            in a particular manner because of the ethnicity of their owners]
                                                            How did Murdoch do that?
                                                            [even if
                                                            media as propaganda by folk of that ethnicity was a Nazi favourite. 
                                                            Why, that's the OPPOSITE of racism, isn't it?]
                                                            I don't know about 'opposite'. But it isn't necessarily racist. Racism is normally something meant as bad about a particular group.
                                                            It's true that philo-ethnicity, such as philosemitism can be a form of inverse racism. 'All Jews are wonderful' can, in its own way, be just as a pernicious as 'All Jews are awful'.
                                                            But did Murdoch do that? He just said he found Jewish authors to be anti-Israel. I'm not sure what he meant by that. I think it may have been a kind of criticism. But it was hardly a smear, unless you think it is, do you?
                                                            • Avatar
                                                              flyingrodent  zachary esterson  2 days ago
                                                              How did Murdoch do that?
                                                              I think that if any public figure not known to be a rock-solid-Israel-is-awesome-bombs-away type came out and started musing on how weird it was that the "Jewish-owned" media acted in a particular way at "times of crisis", we'd find out all the dire implications of those musings in short order. If, say, Rusbridger said the same or similar, we'd hear all about the vile slurs being invoked, forever, and no amount of self-justification on his part would calm it for a second.
                                                              Is everybody going to keep pretending not to grasp this? Is extremely difficult to keep up with who's pretending not to understand what, and how transparently they're doing it, with this infuriating comments system.
                                                            • Avatar
                                                              zachary esterson  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                                              [Okay, okay. So, next time some well-known figure drops a zinger about 
                                                              how weirdly "the Jewish-owned media" acts during a crisis, that'll be 
                                                              fine.]
                                                              The criteria for racism is rarely its merely attributing 'weirdness' to its target.
                                                              It wouldn't be regarded as racism against African-Americans to say they are invariably kind, friendly and helpful, or critical of their own when their own do wrong.
                                                              [So long as it's someone with sufficiently belligerent, bomb 'em all opinions, that is.]
                                                              You mean the way that Murdoch says Jewish owned media +doesn't+ encourage Israel to bomb 'em all?
                                                              You mean you believe the opposite to be true, and that Murdoch is lying?
                                                          • Avatar
                                                            zachary esterson  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                                            [This is either a vastly greater level of intellectual charity than is 
                                                            normally applied round these parts, or an incredible example of 
                                                            mind-reading.]
                                                            ??????????????
                                                            You really +haven't+ read what Murdoch said, have you?
                                                            • Avatar
                                                              Lamia  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                                              "This is either a vastly greater level of intellectual charity than is normally applied round these parts, or an incredible example of mind-reading."
                                                              How do you explain that Murdoch pointed out that Jewish-owned papers such as the NYT actually criticise Israel, not take its side?
                                                              How on earth is contradicting the loony trope that Jews in the media, or who actually own newspapers automatically take the side of Israel, an example of affirming said trope?
                                                              Your logic is standing on its head.
                                                              • Avatar
                                                                Jimithefox  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                                                You think Murdoch believes Jews control the media and use this control to cover up their crimes and that of Israel? Didn't you just bang on about Murdoch above stating:
                                                                .....that would mean a destructive argument with a powerful figure who agrees with your politics.
                                                                You think my politics (?) involve believing that Jews control the media and use it to cover up the crimes of Zion?
                                                                • Avatar
                                                                  flyingrodent  Jimithefox  2 days ago
                                                                  You think Murdoch believes Jews control the media and use this control to cover up their crimes and that of Israel?
                                                                  If I thought that, I'd have said it. I'm good like that.
                                                                  I think the overwhelming majority of political and media figures on Earth would've got a Bell-sized monstering if they'd started yakking on about Jewish-owned media, from your good selves, no less. I think Murdoch not only gets a pass for this, but gets defended to the hilt, because he's a well-known right-wing mentalist with a raging passion for bombing large tracts of the Middle East.
                                                                  And further, I'm saying that this is because Rupe shares the politics of various other right-wing mentalists who have a raging passion etc. etc. because everything involved - the cartoons, the media mogul, and the highly flexible attitude towards the two - has far more to do with said mentalists and their bomb-happiness than it has to do with anything else.
                                                                  • Avatar
                                                                    vildechaye  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                                                    Total nutcase. End of.
                                                                    • Avatar
                                                                      zachary esterson  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                                                      [If I thought that, I'd have said it. I'm good like that]
                                                                      No. You've just realised you didn't read what Murdoch said in the first place.
                                                                      • Avatar
                                                                        Lamia  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                                                        "if they'd started yakking on about Jewish-owned media,"
                                                                        Again, you are being dishonest by omission. He was mocking the trope that Jewish-owned press is pro-Israel. He pointed out that on the contrary, Jewish-owned press is extremely accomodating of anti-Israel sentiment - i.e. there is no Jewish zionist media conspiracy.
                                                                        Bell, meanwhile, is happy to re-use the trope of Jewish control of politicians. And you've spent this whole thread evading that and taking Bell's side. As someone once said: how convenient.
                                                                        • Avatar
                                                                          flyingrodent  Lamia  2 days ago
                                                                          Again, you are being dishonest by omission. He was mocking the trope that Jewish-owned press is pro-Israel.
                                                                          This point has been repeatedly addressed.
                                                                          • Avatar
                                                                            zachary esterson  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                                                            [This point has been repeatedly addressed.]
                                                                            Really, where?
                                                                            • Avatar
                                                                              Lamia  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                                                              No it hasn't. You are conveniently treating a satirical (because explicitly pointing out the contrary reality) mocking of the trope of a pro-Israel Jewish media as if it were an example of said trope.
                                                                              Meanwhile you are treating an example of the trope of zionist control of non-Israeli politicians by Bell as not antisemitic at all.
                                                                              You are either completely dishonest or you can't manage basic logic. Or possibly both.
                                                                              • Avatar
                                                                                Lbnaz  Lamia  2 days ago
                                                                                I vote for both. Flying Wanker will bend over backwards to prettify and whitewash on behalf of those who employ bog standard canards targeting Jews as malevolent hegemons hindering peace and justice for their own filthy lucre and he will if necessary also resort as Carol Churchill did, to excusing the bigotry with the alibi that hey the canard that Jews run the world, or the media was only referring to particular individuals who happen to be Jewish: a bog standard response that Norman Geras recognizes as a salient feature of what he termed alibi antisemitism. Herein lies his dishonesty, because he enters the discussion with the a priori determination to whitewash and prettify Jew baiting regardless of the facts at hand in any particular instance as long as the person or persons trumpeting the canard as if it were legitimate politics as opposed to crass bigotry ridden populism are not extreme right white supremacists.
                                                                                Flying Arsehole demonstrated his obstinate stupidity in this thread by continuing to insist against any semblance of reality that Rupert Murdoch's blatantly obvious dismissal of those who trumpet the Jews control the media canard is instead an instance of antisemitism.
                                                                                So both: Flying Rodent is both disingenuous and a wanker. And there isn't anything particularly surprising that an arsehole would also be a wanker.
                                                                    • Avatar
                                                                      Lamia  Jimithefox  2 days ago
                                                                      Correct. And thus in flying rodent's strange world Rupert Murdoch is an antisemite while Steve Bell, the man who depicts the Israeli PM manipulating British politicians as puppets is... someone who is not only not an anti-semite, but on the contrary an exposer of anti-semitism.
                                                                • Avatar
                                                                  Jimithefox  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                                                  I would say that Murdoch was being ironic. I know, I know - it is difficult for a certain type of Brit to understand that irony is used by non-Brits. How very dare they etc.
                                                                  .... whereas 99.9% of the populace of the UK will never even see a Steve Bell cartoon.
                                                                  So very true - thank fuck for that - and this lack of recognition of his genius is almost unendurable to Bell and those love him - how unfair it all is.
                                                                  • Avatar
                                                                    Discredited Andrew  Jimithefox  a day ago
                                                                    If he was being ironic then why did he apologise?
                                                                    • Avatar
                                                                      flyingrodent  Jimithefox  2 days ago
                                                                      I would say that Murdoch was being ironic.
                                                                      Well, that's certainly convenient that you think that, isn't it?
                                                                      Otherwise, a major letter-writing, blog-spamming, email-bombing campaign would be in order, and that would mean a destructive argument with a powerful figure who agrees with your politics. That could take up a lot of time that could otherwise be spent badgering people who don't.
                                                                      Which would be highly inconvenient, wouldn't it?
                                                                      • Avatar
                                                                        vildechaye  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                                                        too stupid for serious responses, fellas
                                                                        • Avatar
                                                                          Jimithefox  flyingrodent  2 days ago
                                                                          Why is it convenient to point out that Murdoch is capable of using irony? The man tweets the following:
                                                                          Why Is Jewish owned press so consistently anti- Israel in every crisis?
                                                                          To note that there are (forms of) 'press' which are owned by Jews - eg the NYT - and that such publications are consistently anti-Israel is worth commenting on in part to illuminate the idiocy of the anti-semitic mantra - 'Jews control the media' with the implication that this control enables 'the crimes of Israel to remain hidden' and in part, of course, to mock his rivals.
                                                                          • Avatar
                                                                            flyingrodent  Jimithefox  2 days ago
                                                                            Why is it convenient to point out that Murdoch is capable of using irony?
                                                                            Because the "it's irony" defence would last about three seconds before being ruthlessly demolished by a horde of commentators and blog commenters, if it came from the mouths of 95% of public figures?
                                                                            Because it's damn strange that a guy like Stephen Pollard, who had a shouting match with Steve Bell over the content of cartoons on the nation's main news radio station just last week, wasn't aware that Murdoch had made this comment until he was told about it, today?
                                                                            And because freaking out about one and dismissing the other is extremely convenient, if the aim is highly-political trolling?
                                                                  • Avatar
                                                                    quizblorg  Gene  2 days ago
                                                                    His point: Anti-Semitism doesn't actually exist. It's just something Jews have invented in order to persecute righteous critics like Steve Bell.
                                                                    • Avatar
                                                                      Alan A Mod  Gene  2 days ago
                                                                      Bell's point is "Fuck the Yids. Ha Ha Ha".
                                                                  Posted by at
                                                                  Subscribe to: Posts (Atom)