(Noa Angel)
Friday, September 28, 2012
Monday, September 10, 2012
Racism at HP on and on
Met officers sacked for racist comments
Although I think speech should be free – people need to be aware that what they say may have consequences. It could be argued that people can slip into racist patterns of thought or speech, but are not truly racist themselves. (This distinction is often made with reference to antisemitism.) One may wince at certain words – ‘coloured’ for example – while recognizing (if there are no further indicators of a problem) that the speaker’s intentions are quite probably benign.
But it’s a different matter when people repeatedly and unashamedly make comments which reflect disdain and dislike for those of another race. Such views may make it impossible for people to carry out their jobs properly, as was the case with Special Constable Rosanna Garofalo and WPC Joanna Sugda who were recorded making offensive comments about black people, repeatedly comparing them to monkeys. Earlier in the year another officer was sacked for telling a takeaway manager to ‘go back to your fucking country’. Bizarrely, Garofalo insisted that ‘I am not a racist and still do not believe the conversation we had to have any racist connotations.’
KEYWORDS: Racism
Comments
| 9 September 2012, 3:50 pm |
Police officers are in a special position, & like teachers should not express racist ideas, or put them into practice as part of their job.
End of.
I often reflect on how, in many cases, “racism”, an unknown crime in my childhood, is often at the very top of the list of crimes
today.
Police & social services, rarely prosecute murders/”honour killings”
when they can persuade themselves that the victim has gone back to stay with an unidentified aunt in Pakistan.
Similarly, the rape, prostitution, & possible murder of poor,
white girls has been ignored & underinvestigated for decades.
The reason is the fear of being described as “racist” for enforcing laws that apply to all other British citizens.
It follows that in many cases, human lives are seen as less important than an official being described as racist.
Those whom the gods wish to destroy etc etc.
End of.
I often reflect on how, in many cases, “racism”, an unknown crime in my childhood, is often at the very top of the list of crimes
today.
Police & social services, rarely prosecute murders/”honour killings”
when they can persuade themselves that the victim has gone back to stay with an unidentified aunt in Pakistan.
Similarly, the rape, prostitution, & possible murder of poor,
white girls has been ignored & underinvestigated for decades.
The reason is the fear of being described as “racist” for enforcing laws that apply to all other British citizens.
It follows that in many cases, human lives are seen as less important than an official being described as racist.
Those whom the gods wish to destroy etc etc.
| 9 September 2012, 3:57 pm |
Although I think speech should be free – people need to be aware that what they say may have consequences.
I am afraid this is confused thinking. If speech is free, then it must not attract penalties.
A better wording is: Speech is free within wide limits, those limits being placed where it is likely to cause physical harm (shouting ‘Fire!’ in a crowded theatre) or personal fear or feelings of personal physical insecurity.
Those limits mean, of course, that racist abuse does not fall within the definition of free speech.
Criticising a religion or any political position does not cause such harm etc, and should be free in a civilised society.
A better wording is: Speech is free within wide limits, those limits being placed where it is likely to cause physical harm (shouting ‘Fire!’ in a crowded theatre) or personal fear or feelings of personal physical insecurity.
Those limits mean, of course, that racist abuse does not fall within the definition of free speech.
Criticising a religion or any political position does not cause such harm etc, and should be free in a civilised society.
| 9 September 2012, 4:00 pm |
censored by you:
absolutely. Professionally prosecuting crimes committed by members of a community X can never be ‘racist’. This was invented purely to pander to members of a particular client ‘community’, to the detriment of the rule oflaw in this country, and has caused huge harm to, well, yes, ‘community cohesion’ (sorry, I really am).
absolutely. Professionally prosecuting crimes committed by members of a community X can never be ‘racist’. This was invented purely to pander to members of a particular client ‘community’, to the detriment of the rule oflaw in this country, and has caused huge harm to, well, yes, ‘community cohesion’ (sorry, I really am).
| 9 September 2012, 4:03 pm |
I think if they had been in a different line of work it wouldn’t be an issue, or such an issue. And I posted a while back in defence of this woman, who lost her job due to EDL links.
Some things need not be criminal but are not easily compatible with certain jobs. Although I have just read something claiming that what Rowan Laxton said may not have been as bad as first thought, I would much rather he had been penalised at work than through the courts.
| 9 September 2012, 4:07 pm |
I must profess my ignorance here and admit that I was unaware until recently that ‘coloured’ is verboten. Okay, it is a word I seldom use or used – and certainly not in a pejorative sense – but I only realised it was offensive when Alan Hansen was publicly hauled over the coals for using it.
Am I right in assuming the C word is off-limits because of its association with apartheid?
| 9 September 2012, 4:16 pm |
They should sack all the white ones
Of course all white people are racist
As a black man, I admit I am bound to suffer from prejudices of my own. I cannot be racist
| 9 September 2012, 4:17 pm |
Maybe Jeremy – I agree it’s all seems slightly arbitrary and confusing. It does genuinely grate on me, having said that.
| 9 September 2012, 4:23 pm |
Sarah
Some things need not be criminal but are not easily compatible with certain jobs. Although I have just read something claiming that what Rowan Laxton said may not have been as bad as first thought, I would much rather he had been penalised at work than through the courts.
I agree, this sort of thing should be a work discipline thing.
Comparing people ‘of colour’ to monkeys is not something that should be acceptable within the expected code of conduct of a police officer; even one of the plastic ’special constables’. It is however not something that should concern the criminal justice system.
| 9 September 2012, 4:30 pm |
I’m old enough to remember when “coloured” was the POLITE term to use, as opposed the the truly offensive N- and D- words
| 9 September 2012, 4:37 pm |
Am I right in assuming the C word is off-limits because of its association with apartheid?
I didn’t know it is off limits in the UK either!
It does seem as if the terms for people of colour has a sort of reverse half life, starting off benign and becoming radioactive over time.
The word is still used in SA without rancour – and by coloureds themselves. Here it specifically means people of racially mixed admixture, distinct from the other major race groups – blacks whites and indians.
There are something like 5 million coloureds in SA, they mostly speak Afrikaans as their first language and form a majority in the Cape – no doubt one reason the Western Cape is the non ANC province! They may be sub-divided into various sub groups. Indeed, most SA Muslims ancestry hails back to imported Malay slaves.
| 9 September 2012, 5:01 pm |
Sarah AB,
Slightly OT, but as you have posted a couple of times on freedom of speech recently you may find this of interest.
| 9 September 2012, 5:04 pm |
Garofalo insisted that ‘I am not a racist and still do not believe the conversation we had to have any racist connotations.
She’s wrong about “not having racist connotations” but can she claim not to be a racist?
I honestly believe that people can have racist thoughts in their head, can say things about different races to each other and yet put their life on the line to save a member of the race they abuse in private.
I know people who have racial prejudices in their stereotypical beliefs that shows itself in conversation but not in actual prejudice in face-to-face.
Jews will tell you that they have worked with people who have made stereotypical remarks about Jews openly in conversation but the same work colleague has absolutely no prejudice against you in the workplace. You won’t be held back for promotion or be the first out of the door for the sack.
We know that the Black community will use the “N” word amongst themselves. Are they racist?
If speaking about racial characteristics and using stereotypical, denigrating phrases about other races becomes racism that is actionable in law then a huge number of people are in trouble.
Of course racism needs to be stamped out but its a tricky path to try and negotiate.
Of course racism needs to be stamped out but its a tricky path to try and negotiate.
I note a story today of a ginger haired woman taking offence that a bank clerk said “Aren’t you pleased your daughter doesn’t have ginger hair”. The woman wants an apology for “racism” and as much dosh she can wrangle out of the bank.
| 9 September 2012, 5:20 pm |
“Maybe Jeremy – I agree it’s all seems slightly arbitrary and confusing.”
Thank you, Sarah. That is very reassuring. I was somewhat bemused by the Hansen story when it broke; I felt like a cultural ignoramus and a bit of a fogey and while I may be both, I am pretty sure you are neither.
In the case of these two Specials, I wouldn’t particularly want to know them, but I am a little troubled that a private conversation should wind up in the public domain and the national newspapers.
I know plenty of people – including members of my own family – who are less-than-discreet in their views but I wouldn’t want them to be exposed in this way. Yes, these two are Met officers and are held to high standards but, even so, they are entitled to privacy.
The officers in question should have been disciplined and re-trained rather than exposed to national scrutiny and effectively stigmatised for life.
| 9 September 2012, 5:28 pm |
We know that the Black community will use the “N” word amongst themselves. Are they racist?
Those that do use the term are being pig-ignorant and, despite claims to be “reappropriating” the term, I just see them perpetuating a term that is better consigned to history.
It is just a “hip” way, as I see it from the outside, to be racist in an inverted way, i.e. “We are n****s, because we still live in a slaveowner culture that either does not help us to integrate, or that we don’t want to integrate into, unless it is strictly on our own terms.” Which sort of sticks a spanner into the integration machine, if those who need to be integrated and made to feel a part of one bigger society insist on having the mentality that continues the oppression, only by oppressing themselves.
I regard with similar contempt the efforts of “radical” gay people to talk about “queer politics” and other such “isn’t victimhood and self-hatred chic,now we have taken the language of the oppressor and use it to identify ourselves?” bullcrap.
Mind you, I also have contempt for the cuddly touchy-feely all-inclusive term “LGBT”, considering how much animosity there has traditionally been between trannies and gay men, Hackney 1980s political lesbians who (in many cases, but certainly not in the majority) openly hated all men, including gay men, and the mistrust and resentments between bisexuals and gay men.
So maybe I am part of the problem, because I cannot abide separatism, but I also abhor artificially created PC notions of forced inclusivity….
| 9 September 2012, 5:38 pm |
‘Police & social services, rarely prosecute murders/”honour killings”…
Similarly, the rape, prostitution, & possible murder of poor,
white girls has been ignored & underinvestigated for decades.’
Similarly, the rape, prostitution, & possible murder of poor,
white girls has been ignored & underinvestigated for decades.’
Absolute hogwash.
| 9 September 2012, 5:40 pm |
andrew – thanks – that’s very interesting – will try to post later.
Jeremy – maybe your solution is better – I am not sure. Perhaps one needs to know more about the whole context, although I agree that it is tough to lose your job over a private conversation. But it would also be tough to find yourself being black, and having to deal with one of those women in their professional capacity …
| 9 September 2012, 5:43 pm |
“DocMartyn
9 September 2012, 4:16 pm
They should sack all the white ones
Of course all white people are racist
As a black man, I admit I am bound to suffer from prejudices of my own. I cannot be racist
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2002/jul/03/raceintheuk.comment”
9 September 2012, 4:16 pm
They should sack all the white ones
Of course all white people are racist
As a black man, I admit I am bound to suffer from prejudices of my own. I cannot be racist
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2002/jul/03/raceintheuk.comment”
When I read this one I laughed so hard I almost weed.
Break it down.
All (ethnic group) are (single defining characteristic.)
Such self awareness!
| 9 September 2012, 6:13 pm |
Gosh, it’s all jolly difficult, isn’t it? I mean, just last night on the moving television pictures, that Jonathan Thingy had that Cheryl Whatnot on. Her new man is the splendid Will.I.Am who did so welli in the Olympic Torch race, and I said – quite innocently I assure you – That girl, I said, That girl really likes black men; but not black women. Well, The looks I got!
I rather lamely spluttered, Well, it’s true, isn’t it , but this cut no ice, I assure you. I didn’t have the temerity to ask the assembled company if they knew how someone with a criminal conviction for racially aggravated assault occasioning actual bodily harm can move so freely in and out of the USA when that country is famously keen on excluding criminals. Oh, well, them as lives longest will see most, as my Aunty Lila used to say. Cheers!
I rather lamely spluttered, Well, it’s true, isn’t it , but this cut no ice, I assure you. I didn’t have the temerity to ask the assembled company if they knew how someone with a criminal conviction for racially aggravated assault occasioning actual bodily harm can move so freely in and out of the USA when that country is famously keen on excluding criminals. Oh, well, them as lives longest will see most, as my Aunty Lila used to say. Cheers!
| 9 September 2012, 6:14 pm |
Ah Joseph Harker, professional race stirrer and whiner who I believe wrote an article about not being able to get a Mothers Day card with a black woman on it…for his white mother.
Also famous round FF Towers for whining at length about the removal of child benefit from the likes of Guardian editors and other wealthy middle class people in an article in which he whimpered “it costs my children £125 to go to school in term time” – the sums showed this amounted to 50p per kid per day.
The man is a joke.
| 9 September 2012, 6:25 pm |
Sorry – it was “£240 per term” – just found the article
| 9 September 2012, 6:27 pm |
What about referring to a “typical white person” as racist on that basis? Should such a person be judged unfit for public office, or at least for a law enforcement supervisor position?
| 9 September 2012, 6:30 pm |
A police officer making racist remarks on the job especially to members of the public certainly deserves firing.
The remarks by these two women do seem pretty nasty but I’m divided about use of stuff from private conversations as a basis for sackings. Probably it was bad enough to count against them, but I don’t like the thought of a work culture of sneaking on people for private remarks, recording chats etc…It’s likely to get round to much more marginal remarks than in these cases.
Anyway, if that’s the situation now the career of my favourite police detective in modern British tec fiction would clearly be for the chop, immediately, and with respect to thousands of racist remarks in a long career. I refer to Reg Hill’s Inspector Dalziel.
| 9 September 2012, 6:44 pm |
I agree with Sarka on this one – I find the use of what people assumed were private chats in this way to be faintly sinister. And I think people can say racist things without necessarily being racist i.e. in the context of a private joke. Not saying that this is what these people were doing, of course.
| 9 September 2012, 7:13 pm |
Just two quick points – the two police in question – they hardly sound very British themselves. I wonder if they were ever told to “fuck off back to their own fucking country”?
Otherwise “Special Constables” aren’t proper police officers anyway, are they? At least a decade ago it used to mean “do-gooding busybody volunteer” who gets a free uniform and the right to go around playing at being a policeman/woman, with a large number of the rights that real officers have, bizarrely. Like “police support officers” but with a baton and the right to arrest.
| 9 September 2012, 7:15 pm |
We need a book called ‘things not to say’ probably better published by lefties and liberals as most of them talk shite. Then we can have expert guidance and toe their line. Things like ‘dock that nigger a days pay for laying down on the job’ should be banned!
| 9 September 2012, 7:20 pm |
We need a book called ‘things not to say’
and subtitled “The collected thoughts of jimmy glesga”.
| 9 September 2012, 7:36 pm |
if i were a programmer i would device a firefox addon to make all of mr. glesga’s “thoughts” vanish from my computer screen. it wouldn’t be difficult.
| 9 September 2012, 7:57 pm |
True Story. I work in the US (but am english by birth). I do a lot of computer programming where there is a long tradition of using ‘color’ to mean adding additional properties to something (look up ‘colored pointers’ ) where these additional properties are signified by colors.
Recently I and my boss had this great idea of having ‘Colored Blah’ (Blah is some kind of class whose type is not relevant). We introduced this in a couple of meetings – the concept was fine but a couple of people took us aside afterwards and said the name needed to be changed. Other people (in the US) were wincing whenever we used said ‘Colored Blah’. Rather than face endless conversations having to explain what we meant we changed the name to ‘Annotated Blah’.
| 9 September 2012, 8:07 pm |
Hey, banned old guy, how about resisting the urge to indulge in whataboutery?
| 9 September 2012, 8:41 pm |
Why should we wince at the term coloured?
If it was good enough for Martin Luther King,it should be an acceptable term to use.
It’s now considered less than polite nowadays and we are now told by the guardians of our morals that black is more acceptable.I remember when black was unacceptable.
So rather than tie ourselves up in knots, common sense tells us that the context in which something is said and it’s intent is more important.
Who knows,perhaps in the future the N word may be an acceptable expression,heaven forbid.
| 9 September 2012, 8:42 pm |
violet;
I don’t think that’s whataboutery. It bears directly on what is racist speech, and whether it should disqualify someone for public office. I am interested in whether this is a general principle or is dependent on the race and/or political orientation of the people involved. That is, the principle “it’s a different matter when people repeatedly and unashamedly make comments which reflect disdain and dislike for those of another race”.
stuartm;
I had better watch myself because as a code slinger myself I use “color” in precisely the same way.
| 9 September 2012, 9:05 pm |
Absolutely, Jimmy, well said.
I agree that private conversations should not be used this way.
Welcome to Big Brother Britain – this is a government’s wet dream.
| 9 September 2012, 9:09 pm |
Banned Old Guy,
No whataboutery whatsoever. It seems to be regarded as OK to slag off white people (especially if working class: they are the scum of the earth, after all, to Guardian-reading so-called ‘liberals’ (LOL), all the more so if they dare vote other than Labour), in a way that would land you in hot water if non-whites were involved.
| 9 September 2012, 9:12 pm |
Never mind “coloured”, are we allowed to say “WPc”?
~alec
| 9 September 2012, 9:17 pm |
Koyla. That is a good idea you could do a foreward for me like ‘aye fuck aff jimmy’.
| 9 September 2012, 9:18 pm |
Welcome to Big Brother Britain – this is a government’s wet dream.
A leftist’s wet dream.
| 9 September 2012, 9:32 pm |
jimmy glesga
I don’t really want to talk with your because … well, do you realise that almost everything you say here is just one racist moan after another, and that the only people here who regularly agree with you are more verbose and more aggressive apostles of the same hateful message?
I’m not saying you should be banned, but like daggi said, I wish there was an option in my browser to switch you off.
Of course, if you found something to say that was not a racist moan, I might switch you back on again. On a trial basis.
| 9 September 2012, 9:47 pm |
Sacked. Benefits withdrawn. Children banned from school.Shunned by neighbours. Switched off from all browsers. Thus perish all racists.
| 10 September 2012, 12:35 am |
Koyla. Actually I do not realise what is in your heid. And I am not a moaner. I am not looking for agreement just putting over an opinion and a bit of humour to offend people.
| 10 September 2012, 7:42 am |
“The N word” – ugh. Just say it: “nigger”. It’s disgusting and foul, but the prissy tiptoeing around it as if it were a grenade is just silly. It makes it seem like it’s The Worst Word Ever when in fact it’s just a word with only the power we choose to give it and also a word used liberally in certain kinds of music.
And yes, I know all the arguments about why black people can use it and white people can’t, but not to use it even in quoted speech is ridiculous.
| 10 September 2012, 10:14 am |
Using the term ”coloured” in Britain has nothing to do with South Africa and what are called Coloureds there.
In Britain it was closer to ”people of colour”, although it wasn’t that either.
In Britain it was closer to ”people of colour”, although it wasn’t that either.
Now a leading spokesman in black politics suggests that maybe it’s time to leave ”black” behind too, and refer instead to people of African origin.
http://www.obv.org.uk/news-blogs/it-time-ditch-colour-black-our-true-heritage-african
http://www.obv.org.uk/news-blogs/it-time-ditch-colour-black-our-true-heritage-african
That’s Simon Woolley; who has stated in the past that in his opinion, a majority of non-black people in Britain, think that black people are inferior.
Which if was a widely held view amongst black people, would be quite problematic.
It may be true though.
Which if was a widely held view amongst black people, would be quite problematic.
It may be true though.
As for the wpcs in this case: they got caught, but it was terribly sneaky. Britain has now become totally PC as far as things said about race is concerned. A BNP councillor just got convicted for ”racist blogging”.
| 10 September 2012, 11:55 am |
There is something daft about a situation whereby the terms used to describe groups that are subject to disparagement keep on becoming contaminated with connotations of bigotry and have to be replaced every few years.
How about we adopt a system of dated terminology, for example this year the legitimate term for “black” people would be “black-12″, and next year “black-13″. That way we could all stay ahead of the bigotry-connotation tsunami that is alway lapping at our heels.
| 10 September 2012, 12:12 pm |
Ponios sounds nice. Persons of Non – Indiginous Origin.
| 10 September 2012, 1:05 pm |
I struggle to understand how some words are offensive, and others aren’t, despite meaning the same thing. I guess the history of the word might have some influence. But why, say, is cunt a horrendous swear word but vagina isn’t? What makes Paki offensive, when it’s just a contraction of Pakistani? Ditto Yid (cf Yiddish). Clearly I’m too much of a literalist.
| 10 September 2012, 1:07 pm |
people of African origin.
That’s the entire human race then
| 10 September 2012, 1:36 pm |
Nice one Jimmy G.
I like your pithy contributions,I’ve yet to see you write anything racist.
Maybe Kolya is playng a race card and you are then required to shut up.
He has been rather nasty to you on more than one occassion.
I think he needs a hug from you. x
| 10 September 2012, 1:45 pm |
Jimmy, pay no attention to the ever pompous and self-important (and sometimes racist) Kolya. You provide good value, if when I disagree with you.
| 10 September 2012, 1:47 pm |
I think he needs a hug from you. x
Thanks for caring. But no thanks.
| 10 September 2012, 2:36 pm |
What’s disturbing is to what extent even relatively sophisticated people like Sarah AB display in their writing their acceptance of the principle, postulate, propostion what have you, which essentially comes down to “Racism is the worst prejudice in the world” or “Racism trumps all other ism’s in its awfulness. There are numerous parameters along which humans differ, which are not susceptible to change: age, sex, attractiveness, height, blood group, personality, your parents’ class and so on. They all in theory qualify for the formation of -isms.
It’s simply that the supposed iconic dreadfulness of racism has been assiduously cultivated by those who have the power and motivation to do so, aided and abetted by inertia, cowardice, ignorance, stupidity, herd instinct, inability to think critically, wish for a quiet life and various other properties commonplace in most of the populace – including me.
The amount of suffering, disadvantage and unhappiness caused by “racism” is miniscule compared to the colossal amount due, for example, to ageism. Putting the age of 50 into a job application guarantees rejection. Putting black for your ethnic origin implies no such guarantee. You can say numerous pejorative things about old people without even being noticed. You won’t get a post on Harry’s Place or any other leftish-inclined blogs about ageism, that’s for sure.
This belief in the dreadful pre-eminence of racism, is chiefly a generational thing, secondary to indoctrination in school and by the modern mass media.
It’s simply that the supposed iconic dreadfulness of racism has been assiduously cultivated by those who have the power and motivation to do so, aided and abetted by inertia, cowardice, ignorance, stupidity, herd instinct, inability to think critically, wish for a quiet life and various other properties commonplace in most of the populace – including me.
The amount of suffering, disadvantage and unhappiness caused by “racism” is miniscule compared to the colossal amount due, for example, to ageism. Putting the age of 50 into a job application guarantees rejection. Putting black for your ethnic origin implies no such guarantee. You can say numerous pejorative things about old people without even being noticed. You won’t get a post on Harry’s Place or any other leftish-inclined blogs about ageism, that’s for sure.
This belief in the dreadful pre-eminence of racism, is chiefly a generational thing, secondary to indoctrination in school and by the modern mass media.
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